Steering pressure

[lebedo]

Hi there,

As said before, I'm a riding instructor. One thing confuses me when I teach countersteering. Students have to ride a slalom in third gear, 25 mph, constant speed, and countersteer around some plots. When they add pressure on the inside bar, the bike steers, that's ok. But when they release the pressure, the bike stands up. Is it related to the body position, the constant speed, some kind of increase in the speed? Any thought on this? Has someone already experienced this? 

Also, do you think that countersteering at slow speed can be done? 

Thanks and have a good day.

[Keith Code]

Where and for what rider training organization do you instruct? I'm asking to get an idea of what the purpose of the training is that is offered. Your questions can be answered I just want to get some background on your instructing.

[lebedo]

Hi Keith,

I'm sorry for the delay to your question. I am not working for now but will in December if the lockdown is over in France, in a driving/riding school named "auto ecole Plan Benjamin" in Aubenas, a small town in Ardeche. I'm an instructor since 1994. The reasons I'm asking for that is not to steal your work, it's just that everything you say and do, everything you teach, is right. When I passed my riding license, nobody explained me how to countersteer, how to brake, how to lock my body,etc. When I look at the way we teach our students how to ride, I realize that most of us, instructors, teach it the wrong way. And sometimes we don't know how to help students. I'm asking because I want to teach the good techniques to my students. You can have a look at "plateau moto 2020", "Trajectoire de sécurité", or AFDM and you'll have an idea of how it's done here. So, if you don't want to answer, I will understand, but let me tell you that you are doing a great job.

Thanks and have a good day.

 

[lebedo]

Also, you can look at " contre-braquage" which is the french name for countersteering. This is me riding a FJR, showing countersteering. I thought I was right. But from what I know now, I guess I was wrong! Pushing the bike under and away...gasp.

[Keith Code]

Lebedo;

I wasn't worried about you stealing my stuff, everything in the books and videos is for riders to improve themselves, if you see better ways to instruct from the books and videos and you see it helping your students, I'm happy about that.

The bike should not stand up once pressure is released after the counter-steering pressure is applied. If the rider is crossed up as you illustrate in the photo then it WILL have the tendency to stand up. This is possible.

Also, riders often restrain the bars with the opposite hand e.g., press the right bar to turn right but their left arm is stiff holding on to the left bar. They could be pushing or pulling on the left bar. If they are pushing on it the bike will stand up.

When you instruct counter-steering you always look at both arms. The negative effects on handling from being too tight on the bars is well covered in" A Twist of the Wrist II"

Keith

[lebedo]

Thanks Kieth,

I will try to notice what I'm doing and adjust it. It's a release to know that I can use your books and videos to help my students.

Take care and have a good day.

 

[lebedo]

By release, I mean relief. I couldn't use your materials without your approval.

Thanks a lot.

[Jump]

Hi guys, i m new here. I have read some posts in this forum about the countersteering and i have understand that the turn speed rate depends on how hard you push/pull/both on the handbars, not how quickly. What is not clear for me is how to control the lean angle amount, does it depend on how long the pressure Is applied on the handbars? 

For examole if i apply a little pressure for a long time will i reach the max lean angle X of the motorcycle but with a low speed turn rate, and if i apply a hard pressure i ll reach the same lean angle X in less time, right?

[Jump]

Hi guys, I try to answer on my own, maybe someone can validate my sentences.

The lean angle amount to reach from the motorcycle stand up position is function of how much the handbars is rotated by the force applied (pushing force)

For example with a pushing force of 10 kg we reach lean angle of 30 degree

The speed to reach 30 degree, instead, depends on how quickly we apply 10kg on the handbars.

 

I hope in some feedbacks

 

 

 

 

[Jaybird180]

I missed your post, but I'm trying to answer the same question and started a new post.

 

[Hotfoot]

On 8/24/2021 at 6:47 AM, Jump said:

Hi guys, i m new here. I have read some posts in this forum about the countersteering and i have understand that the turn speed rate depends on how hard you push/pull/both on the handbars, not how quickly. What is not clear for me is how to control the lean angle amount, does it depend on how long the pressure Is applied on the handbars? 

For examole if i apply a little pressure for a long time will i reach the max lean angle X of the motorcycle but with a low speed turn rate, and if i apply a hard pressure i ll reach the same lean angle X in less time, right?

Yes, the amount of lean angle will depend on how LONG you push on the bar, and the steering rate (how quickly the bike leans over) will depend on how HARD you push. And your last sentence is stating it correctly, yes.

[Jump]

Hi Hotfoot i trust you, but for me it Is a bit strange. I throught that the lean angle had depend on how much the handbars is rotated by the pushing force.

I mean  with a pushing force on the handbars of 10 kg the handbars rotates of 2 degree and the motorcycle reach the 30 degree lean angle for example and so on. 

[Hotfoot]

38 minutes ago, Jump said:

Hi Hotfoot i trust you, but for me it Is a bit strange. I throught that the lean angle had depend on how much the handbars is rotated by the pushing force.

I mean  with a pushing force on the handbars of 10 kg the handbars rotates of 2 degree and the motorcycle reach the 30 degree lean angle for example and so on. 

I don't claim to know this for a fact, but my first thought is this:  countersteering takes the front wheel out of line with the direction of travel, creating the lean, and that creates resistance and some temporary deformation of the tire, and that if you try to push the bar quickly (but without increasing the force) the tire just sort of bounces back at you and you get a wobble instead of a real direction change, whereas a STRONGER push really turns the bars and creates a larger force at the contact patch to lean the bike over rapidly. That's my thought, but I'll try to get a more technical answer for you from the boss.

The main thing we are trying to avoid is riders trying to "punch" at the bar, because that creates instability and a wobble in the steering. That is easy to test, go out and ride and try a very light (low force), controlled push on the bar and see how the bike steers. Then try a much firmer push with similar control (harder but not faster). Then try a very quick, low force stab at the bar (faster but nor harder) and see what happens. Which gives you a faster and more controlled steering result?

When you try this, make sure you are going at a decent speed, over 25 mph, so that you don't accidentally oversteer and lean too far -  it takes a lot less force to lean the bike over a very slow speeds so that makes the whole exercise of playing around with the steering more difficult.

[lebedo]

Hi there,

i am now teaching countersteering by teaching first to lean the upper body, then applying Palm pressure to push forward with various intensity levels and duration, then going with the bike with the upper body then the head. It's amazing how smooth and efficient it is.

I have two questions:

Will the use of the knees against the tank give à better understanding of going with the bike? If yes, which knee will be better?

In a turn, once we lean the bike, do we lean it until it goes to the apex, keeping the pressure until the bike point towards it, or do we lean it to set a lean angle then wait for it To point towards the apex?

Thanks 

 

 

[Hotfoot]

On 10/1/2021 at 11:41 PM, lebedo said:

 

I have two questions:

Will the use of the knees against the tank give à better understanding of going with the bike? If yes, which knee will be better?

In a turn, once we lean the bike, do we lean it until it goes to the apex, keeping the pressure until the bike point towards it, or do we lean it to set a lean angle then wait for it To point towards the apex?

Thanks 

 

 

Gripping the tank with both knees helps to stabilize the lower body which helps prevent the rider from having to use their arms to support the upper body. It would also probably help them understand "going with the bike" because it makes it more difficult for the rider to push the bike underneath them, motocross style, when steering.

If a rider does not hang off the bike, both knees can be used to hold on. If the rider does hang off, the inside knee is usually opened up into the corner so the outside knee is used to hold on to the bike. 

Regarding your second question, that will depend on the shape of the corner and the line the rider chooses to use to approach it. There are some corners, like decreasing radius corners, where the rider may set the lean angle early in the corner but have to wait for the bike to arc around and get pointed to a late apex. A different rider might choose a tighter, more inside line approach to the SAME corner (perhaps when passing a slower rider on the entry), and/or may choose to steer it more slowly (perhaps to allow greater trail braking) and have to keep leaning it much deeper into the corner.

The simpler answer is: once the bike is on a line that will get the rider through the corner, steering is completed. Where in the corner the bike gets on line will depend on the shape of the corner, how the rider enters the corner, and how quickly the rider steers the motorcycle.

[lebedo]

Thanks Hotfoot. That helps me à lot. I was confused reading different advices.

Have a good day.

[lebedo]

Last week, while I was teaching a student how to sit on the bike and how to anchor herself with her knees, I made an interesting discovery (for me at least! ).

The bike was sitting on the side stand with its bars straight. While I was leaning my upper body on the left side of the rear tire I saw the handlebars moving to the right. It just busted the myth of body steering and the need for countersteering became clear as crystal water. 

I was trying to understand how the Japanese did to lean their bikes, they don't use countersteering as such, but it appears that they do use it without knowing it.

[lebedo]

I have a better understanding of why some people can be confused with Body steering and also the " Steer for the rear " quote!

[Hotfoot]

That’s great, glad that was a enlightening moment!

[lebedo]

Thanks Hotfoot!

[lebedo]

When I say leaning the upper body, it's not Body Steering. It's leaning forward so that they can push forward not downward while staying in line with the bike.

[Cobie Fair]

It's interesting to see what the bars do when one let's go of them, and throws the body around.  More blatant on a bicycle...

[lebedo]

The riding school I teach at has Kawasaki z 650 and 400 and KTM DUKE 125. Depending on how flat the ground is, I can demonstrate how slowly the bike countersteers when you only use your body. While the bike is on its kickstand I lean my upper body on the  left side of the rear wheel and then the handlebars turn to the right. A moment later, I mean maybe 1 or 2 seconds, handlebars turn to the left. Then I lean my upper body on the left side of the saddle and finally on the left side of the handlebars. While the handlebars still turn to the right while leaning on the left side of the saddle, it turns less. And it barely moves to the right when leaning my torso on the left of the handlebars.

One thing I also try in the canyons is moving my upper body with my knees pressuring the tank. I find it relaxes my upper body , bends my inside elbow as well as drops my inside shoulder. But I'm not sure I do it at the right time cause I have my upper body into the turn before the bike. I also noticed that when doing this technique the bike doesn't move meaning I 'm putting no pressure on the handlebars. Moving this way around the bike helps me to prevent any tension in the inside arm avoiding to press down the inside bar. Something I've noticed a lot of riders are doing instinctively with a tense body counterweighting the bike.

Countersteering ,as I've understood it , helps me to quickly turn the bike then get it straight also quickly. Countersteering then going on the gas to stop her leaning also prevents me from crossing my lane and going too far to the inside which , on our canyon roads, can be dangerous as a lot of turns are blind ones. Pressure at the bars is very weak no need to be forceful. 

For my body position, I always try to keep clenching the pegs rear plates with my ankles and to tighten my shoulder blades. That opens my shoulders into the turn and makes it easier to turn my head into the turn. I'm also trying to be aware of my elbow, forearm and wrist positions so that the inside forearm and  wrist are as flat as possible. It keeps me from pushing down the bar and forces me to push it forward in a rotational way.

I try the 2-Steps technique but I don't use good references points I think as my sightline just crosses between the boundaries of my lane. But I still can point the bike and using a vanishing point see where I'm in my lane and where and when to apply TC rule 1 then stand the bike up.

Any comments are welcome!

[Cobie Fair]

Hi Lebedo,

Covered quite a lot there, and some good observations.  Anything in particular you'd like a comment on?

[lebedo]

Hi Cobbie. Thanks for your answer. I will now ride the MT 07 of my eldest son as he's going in Florida for the next 10 months. I would surely appreciate any help on the 2-Step technique as I think it's the one I'm struggling the most with.