Aging riders...what's techniques are priority?

[Cobie Fair]

OK, here is a question:  anyone tried jumping rope for training?  I'm giving this a try, and it seems easy to overtrain.  Kinda like beginning yoga.  

[Jaybird180]

My workout plan involves sitting in the stands at my son’s basketball games. It’s a real workout…somebody’s gotta do all the heckling, right 🤣.

[Cobie Fair]

OK, that made me laugh out loud.

[gpounce32768]

I run, fiddle around with weights, planks, pushups of various kinds etc- nothing fancy.   I've found basic cardio fitness makes long rides a lot easier to sustain.   Long duration planks front & back helped a lot with riding the R6, current bike is less demanding of posture thankfully.  I've never raced (so looking forward to seeing how that kind of stuff is done in May) so perhaps the cardio demands are more intensive.

 

[Cobie Fair]

Sounds good.  Being fit really does seem to help.

[Cobie Fair]

Got some email a few days ago, and a rider had quit riding, due to "reaction times" lessening.  He's 59.

I got this and my first answer thought was (no filter), WTF?  I don't know this rider, no idea of training, overall pace, where he rode--no info.

This email came to me as I was on the way to deliver a seminar on visual skills.  Really I think that is where he ran into problems.  In the modern era, we're seeing riders fit enough to ride into their 80's at the track.  But if the visual skills deteriorate with age (often happens), then the time a rider has to predict what's happening around him, that will surely get less.

Let's touch on one component of this:  How does a rider make more personal "time" for him/herself to react to what's happening around him?  Someone please do chime in on this, I'd like to know what is thought of on this subject.

 

[Jaybird180]

I think that's mostly between the ears. It's about how we process what's going on around us and what we're doing on the machine and if there's too much mental noise going on then it slows down the brain's ability to filter and decide what is important and not, then command the body to make the right inputs into the bike to get the desired outcome.

A disruption in the OODA loop is always the root cause.

[Jaybird180]

...and then again if he lives near me, he might be right. Drivers have gone bananas since the pandemic. I've seen a marked change in driving habits and made the decision to take the plates off my bikes about a year ago.

If he's riding on track= I'd change Orgs. I know of one Org that I won't ride with, as they talk too much of helicopter rides. After that, training could help (see my post above). 

 

[CoffeeFirst]

Quote

17 hours ago, Cobie Fair said:

… and a rider had quit riding, due to "reaction times" lessening.  He's 59.

 

Being one of your older knuckleheads on track, my no filter reaction was a double dose of WTF, but the calmer me agrees with both you and Jaybird180.  

To Jaybird's point, you never know what is going on between the rider's ears and physical situation. Case in point, I have a brother in-law who was an outstanding rider. He would ride everything and anywhere … city streets, canyons, track, off-road, motocross. He is now in his late 60's and dialed his riding way back to the point of being almost non-existent. His reasons are several, but the rise in distracted driving has turned him off of road riding big time. He also doesn't trust his body like he once did. While he has some physical issues (i.e. challenging knees) I would argue this is far more mental (loss of confidence) than physical.

But regardless, the secret sauce has at least two ingredients … staying somewhat fit (as all the prior posts in this thread have highlighted) and as you point out, applying solid visual skills to give yourself more useful information and as much reaction time as possible.  

I will add, applying great visual skills (ie. wide-view / wide-view transitions) is hugely helpful in ANY activity or sport where your body is moving through space. I have been working with my 8-year old grandson this winter on applying WV / WVT skills to his skiing. The kid is ripping up black diamond expert runs and IMHO WV/WVT is a vital skill when pounding away with pace on challenging mogul runs or in the trees and glades. 

[CoffeeFirst]

Quote

15 hours ago, Cobie Fair said:

In the modern era, we're seeing riders fit enough to ride into their 80's at the track

 

And just to add an exclamation mark to this point, love this photo / article from the most recent issue of the AMA newsletter … 77-years young "Rocky" Spano still rocking east coast enduro …

[CoffeeFirst]

And as Jaybird180 points out, the third ingredient of that secret sauce is to get some well qualified, proper training!

 

[gpounce32768]

I took the MSF Advanced Rider course in 2022.  It was a good experience- led by a state highway mounted cop; it was pretty funny having a cop yell at me to go faster.    But there was an older guy in the class, he mentioned that he takes the class every couple years to test his riding fitness; if he couldn't pass the class then its time to consider not riding- balance issues, focus, mental and visual acuity or even just interest would all play into it.   I think I'll do the same.

I know a guy in his early 80's, he gave up his Harley because of balance issues, and I think strength also, though he'd never admit it.   But he never lost the passion to ride, so just a couple weeks ago he bought a can-am spyder, much to his wife's vexation.   His mood is a lot better, now he can go ride with his club again.. but if riding stops being exciting and interesting, if the passion disappears then maybe it is time to quit before making a mistake.

I think ToTW1 captures it well; preoccupation with other matters gets in the way of riding.  All those visual drills to free the mind from thinking and stay in the moment are critical.   Riding is much like meditation in many respects.

I commute by motorcycle as much as possible in the DC/Baltimore metro area.  Distracted driving seems much the same as it ever was- prevalent, dangerous and a PITA.    I've been able to watch movies thru the back windows of cars in the gridlock, whiff the skunk being smoked, watch the ladies putting on makeup, facebook posts being fiddled with; on and on.   My favorite is when someone decides to merge right into where I am with no warning... always have to stay frosty, have a plan B, and never stay side-by-side with a cage.

[Cobie Fair]

Excellent responses from you all on this, very good to see.  You even went a step past what I'd been thinking of on this personal time point.

Let's look at this one piece: if a rider creates more space for himself, can he create more time?  Is that a component of any emergency--not enough time?

A friend was in a very minor accident in his car, when a bike hit him.  He was on a 4-lane street, turned left onto a 2-lane street, and did an immediate right into the first driveway.  A rider was followed him when he turned, and tried to pass him on the right (between his car and parked cars), and ran into his car behind the door.  100% fault of the rider (who wasn't badly hurt) and admitted fault.  The driver said he never saw the rider, was totally surprised when it happened.

The driver admitted, he was a little "short visioned" and sometimes does turn on his turn signal pulling into that driveway, but this time did not (he was a little late for an appt.).  

This gent is a good driver, and been to the School.  He admitted just a little bit more "space" (including behind himself), and he'd have prevented it/seen it coming.  

Managing one's "time" is quite a skill and art by creating/controlling visually the one's space.

One of the best drivers I know is in 70's.  I watched him miss another car that cut him off.  The 3 passengers with him were all shocked, and "WTF!"  He just laughed, he'd seen it coming, and had enough time to dodge the other car.

So here's the exercise: experiment with your own "time" by adjusting the space while in motion.  Go a little too far in both directions (obviously use a little common sense on this).  Keep it simple, and let us know what you notice.  

[CoffeeFirst]

Interesting exercise. I guess I tend to think about creating more "reaction time" as having two core concepts. When you have more actual physical distance, or space, between you and another vehicle it can help increase the amount of time you have to react.  As a simple example, imagine you're coming up to an intersection and look to your left once your car has come to a stop. You now see two cars traveling perpendicular to you coming towards the same intersection, both traveling at 60 mph … one is 200 feet from the intersection, the other is 20 feet. Math says the car 200 feet away from you will cross your path in 2.27 seconds, the one 20 feet away will cross your path in 0.23 seconds. Physical space, all else being equal, creates more time to react.

BUT, and this is where the second concept comes in and is HUGE, is exactly WHEN during the "passage of time" do you actually "see" the vehicles?  If you were able to "see" the second (closer) car in your peripheral vision while you're coming towards the intersection (not once you've stopped) you'd be picking it up sooner in the passage of time so the car would be further from the intersection in the example above. So now maybe it is 30 ft, 50 ft, 100 ft away when you pick it up … ipso facto, you've just given yourself more time to make a decision about the car and time to react. Cobie, this is your 70's driver who saw the other car coming to cut him off long before it happened. 

A more relevant example would be how closely we're following a rider on track. If we're three feet off a rider's rear wheel at 60 mph, we'd have 0.033 seconds to react before our front wheel is in the space their rear wheel just vacated. We back off 10 or 15 feet and we've exponentially increased our reaction window. Better yet, have great wide view and "see" an emerging problem long before the rider in front of you has to confront it.

[Jaybird180]

Coffeefirst reminded me of a video and discussion on social media among riders of a collision with a car. I was the lone voice that said the rider’s lack of visual and bike control skills was at fault and the collision could have been avoided. The rider ended up seriously hurt.

Keith did an article where he identified several key skills that if a rider didn’t have, they don’t belong on the street on a motorcycle because they’re a risk to themselves. Might be worth a search and read for anyone that street rides.

[gpounce32768]

I took the MSF course to get my motorcycle license, during the classroom work they put a lot of emphasis on the "distance is time" idea.   The theory is the rider should be looking at whats happening in the next 2 secs, next 8 secs, next 12 secs.   12 secs up the road might be the all the brake lights coming on.  8 secs is the pothole/roadkill that just came into view, 2 secs is the car that just started swerving into your lane position.

This dynamically open perception being in contrast to the commute-style grind where the focus is the bumper of the car in front of you.    So being aware of events in these temporal ranges, the rider can choose to create distance to gain time; brake well in advance of the 12 sec hazard so as to pick a path around the 2x4's that everyone is braking for, and at the last second swerve onto the shoulder while braking harder to avoid the car.   Accordingly, lane position becomes a strategy to maybe provide an additional moment to see something happening.    IIRC KC wrote about recruiting cars around you as cover when passing potential left-turners; they're more likely to see the cars and if they do go anyway, then hopefully they hit the car between you and them instead.

From a ToTW perspective, the win is you are not surprised with survival reactions freezing you on the controls.

Concur with jaybird- if there is a collision its likely traceable to inattention or surprise on the part of the rider.   I'll go for something like; generally in the moment you get the responses you practice not necessarily the ones you prefer.

[CoffeeFirst]

Great choice of words … "dynamically open" vs. "commute-style grind" visual skills.  A nice way to think about the "distance is time" concept. I'll have to remember this!

Also fully agree regarding lane positioning strategies being able to provide both reaction time and physical cover.  I've found when you apply it as a key part of every ride it eventually just becomes second nature, using very little of your $10 of mental bandwidth. 

Gotta keep those seven survival reactions at bay!

[Cobie Fair]

Good points all.  

Does anyone recall, but somewhere Keith mentions an 8th survival reaction...I think it's in the Twist 2 video...anyone know where it is?

[gpounce32768]

A timely question- its been a while since I've last gone into Twist2.   I bought it on cd, so listen to it as an audiobook during the commute, so am disadvantaged wrt looking up the lists.   I re-listened to it this week during the drive.   I've always thought the last few SR's were not itemized as clearly as the first ones, so remain somewhat unclear once past the list of 7 I just looked up

1. Rolling off the gas
2. Tightening on the bars
3. Narrowed and frantically hunting field of view
4. Fixed attention (on something)
5. Steering in the direction of the fixed attention
6. No steering (frozen) or ineffective (not quick enough or too early) steering
7. Braking errors (both over and under braking).
 

OTOH late in Twist2 KC does mention physical and mental fatigue as important issues, though perhaps more as contributing to SR's instead of actually being one.   OTOH I wonder if frustration leading the rider to force speed/corners might be something like an SR- in the sense of leading to riding errors.

 

[Jaybird180]

I think gpounce is onto something…

Is the 8th SR: Charging the Corner?

[Jaybird180]

Seeing the list of SRs I’m wondering if they’re ordered by difficulty to resolve.

[CoffeeFirst]

I think about SR’s as being things you do on the bike when your immediate riding situation triggers your panic buttons (can be mild or sever trigger). Could be from charging a corner or just a situation that is quickly unfolding in front of you that creates concern.

The list of 7 SRs hits the bad things  we tend to do with three of the five controls on a motorcycle (throttle, bars, brakes) and implosion of our good vision skills.  I doubt it has something to do with clutch or gear shifter. 

I don’t remember the 8th SR but will have chase it down when I get some time. If I had to guess I would say it has something to do with moving our body in a way that is counter productive, or doing something like rolling on the throttle and braking at the same time. 

[CoffeeFirst]

The other thing I remember from some auto track training is when drivers panic they sometimes hold their breath and forget to breathe, which exacerbates the state of panic. Good breathing skills help maintain a state of calm, which in turn helps decision-making. 

[Cobie Fair]

Dang, I want to find this, I don't think I'm crazy...

Not sure on if SR's are in order of difficulty to resolve, good question though.  We are prepping for Vegas this weekend, not sure I'll get time to watch Twist 2 DVD, that's where I thought it was brought up.  I've got one person, part nerd, I'm gonna ask...

[gpounce32768]

Twist2 dvd content is substantially different than audiobook but the track footage on it is great.