Aging riders...what's techniques are priority?

[Cobie Fair]

The age for a senior citizen seems to have gone up, but aging does change the riding game a little.  Here's what I'd like to know: what skills/techniques/attitudes does the older rider consider important?

I used to think that older riders might be wiser, would use their experience and wisdom to think things through, take more calculated risks, that kind of thing.  Some do...and some don't!  I can think of 2 riders right off the cuff, in their late 70's.  These fellas had more balls than sense, they approached their riding like 18 year-olds at the bordello with Daddy's black AMEX--out of control.

Or another senior citizen that had a heart attack (and knew it).  Then flew himself home in his private plane!!!!  WTF!  He later said he flew "lower than normal" and took a route home away from civilization, so if he did crash, wouldn't hurt anyone else.  

So this question is for the older forum members (let's say over 60).  What do you consider your best defense for successful riding (or any high stress activity)?  A particular technique?  Your overall ability to "handle come what may?"  Luck?  Karma? 

I'd like to know.

[Jaybird180]

Interesting topic! As a young whipper-snapper, I don’t yet qualify but I did finally make the decision to let the license plate on my sportbike expire. It was a risk/reward decision. I’ll just live vicariously through the geriatric riders described above (though not the pilot- he deserves a good roasting).

[Cobie Fair]

Don't need plates at racetracks...

[Jaybird180]

Bike is in the garage, on stands just waiting for seasonal maintenance.

[D_Gray]

I see a lot of older riders online say they just switch down to a lower capacity bike such as a cb500f or mt-03, the steering input is just less effort because the entire front just weighs less and I'd assume the smaller thinner tires turn in easier. 

[Cobie Fair]

I'm lazy, and like horsepower these days

[D_Gray]

Do you trail off the brakes coming through the corners to reduce the rake and get better contact patch ? that's supposed to reduce the effort put into steering. 

I'm a newer rider, which I guess you could say is comparable to ageing riders in a way. Something I always forget is to keep taking in large breaths and control my breathing because I'm so focused on operating the bike. This could definitely lead to things such as heart attacks and a loss of concentration. You're already trying to attain that 'no-mind' meditative state, so you've got to keep the long controlled breathing up to ensure you're getting enough oxygen. I don't think the human body will be physically exerting itself enough for the brain to do it automatically during street riding. 

 

Also get your body up over the front tyre and you'll feel a lot more grip in my experience (obviously don't put weight on the handle bars)

[Jaybird180]

As I've aged, I've certainly have used the brakes "differently" and I don't attribute it to age but wisdom (ha, ha- see what I did there?). Seriously, my riding has evolved most notably over the past 3-4 years, I'm faster and more confident and "don't do nothin' dumb". I don't have a set agenda about brakes and corners like I used to, I now know that every situation is different- some require brakes come off before I tip-in, other situations need brakes-off as I'm dialing-in my lean angle, I'm still working on that as it usually causes me to be about 1/2 to a full heartbeat late on the gas, so annoying.

I know there are many (really just two I can name) schools of thought that brakes should always be applied when cornering. I am cautious whenever I hear implied or otherwise absolute terms like always and never. That caution has opened the door for me for where I am in my riding now. I'll get that timing thing down, soon.

Weight transfer: I'm mostly a side-side kinda guy...but if I can be lazy and keep my weight centered (not going fast enough/ needing it in a particular corner), then I will. I've seen guys hanging off like a monkey just getting out of the pits and I think it's hilarious. Naaa, I'll save my energy for when I need it. I will however get over the front end in a tight, decreasing radius turn- there's one such turn at NJMP that spooks me if I'm more than a foot off my line and I use the technique with good effect.

[Cobie Fair]

7 hours ago, D_Gray said:

Do you trail off the brakes coming through the corners to reduce the rake and get better contact patch ? that's supposed to reduce the effort put into steering.

There are a number of pieces that we could look at, but one you brought up, let's take one to start with, and that's effort in steering.  In a corner, if braking is being applied, and the bike is leaned over, what does the bike want to do?  3 possible options here: stay on it's line, stand up, turn in more.  

[D_Gray]

10 minutes ago, Cobie Fair said:

There are a number of pieces that we could look at, but one you brought up, let's take one to start with, and that's effort in steering.  In a corner, if braking is being applied, and the bike is leaned over, what does the bike want to do?  3 possible options here: stay on it's line, stand up, turn in more.  

If you put them on after you've already leaned over I guess the bike would stand up due to the loss of speed meaning the lean isn't needed anymore. 

[Cobie Fair]

After the bike has been leaned over (or while leaning) if one puts the brakes on, the bike wants to stand up, correct on that for sure...it is being countersteered at that time.  This also increases the effort to steer.

[Cobie Fair]

A few years back, a senior coach tagged in behind a newer (and younger) coach.  The younger lad was knee on deck in all turns.  Senior coach was sitting in the middle of the bike riding behind the younger lad, knees nowhere near the ground--both on the exact same bike.  Graphic example of a few points of riding efficiency.  The newer coach wasn't a bad rider at all, but what was the older coach doing that allowed for less lean angle?

One reason was approach angle on the turn points.  This used to be a full classroom, before the training revision brought a few other techniques into the current training line up.  Approach angle on the turn points, or "Attack Angle" as we termed it, has a dramatic effect on a large number of riding points.  When maximized, it's more efficient for a number of reasons.  

Anyone care to see if they can come up good reason for a beneficial attack angle to the turn point?

[Jaybird180]

Cobie- I feel like this is a matter of the teacher putting the answer on the board and then asking the question.

[Cobie Fair]

Actually there are a number of specific benefits that I haven't listed, and I was curious if this was a point riders considered.  I really am curious to know what/if this is a point that riders break down and consider?  The Attack Angle to the turn point can be as critical as the turn point, in some instances even more so.  An example would be if one has to take an alternate line while passing.  Again, I was putting this up to view, and see what/how this subject is considered.  

[Jaybird180]

Wow! So there IS more! Looking forward to the discussion.

[Cobie Fair]

Anyone want to chime in on this...have you considered the effects (good or bad) of that attack (approach) angle to the turn point?  If not, fine, just curious.  

[Cobie Fair]

Jaybird?

[ktk_ace]

Imho lighter and more forgiving bike/scooter AND strength training tuned towards maintaining QOL. 

[Jaybird180]

The larger radius turn of the older guy allowed for a higher cornerspeed (if needed) but was used to provide a more relaxed lean angle. I’m sure there’s more to it.

[Roberts]

I definitely quality as an older rider.

When I start a ride I am all over the bike, 'hanging off like a monkey', but for the same reason you do a few miles to let your tires and pads warm up.  It's stretching, finding the right tuck-in for knees and feet, and finding out which wrist angle doesn't hurt as much today.  The faster I go, the less I crawl over the bike, and that absolutely means setting up for corners in a way that is more 'sweep' then 'toss'.  Another important issue is following my site lines.  Visual acuity has diminished, and it takes some warm up to remind my eyes where to look, to not flick to peripheral distractions, and to get the whole 'mind, body, eye' package focused and on task.  Somedays it doesn't all come together. and on those days 'wisdom' needs to kick in.  Older riders need to accept when it's an 80% day, and not 'deny and fly'.

My 2 cents.

[Roberts]

To answer Cobie's question, I have to say that lean angle for any given corner and velocity has a lot to do with *where* you are connected to the motorcycle.  If you have all your weight on the pegs, legs locked in, and butt off the seat you have a very different result than if you light on the pegs with your upper body in motion, and your vertical loading of the suspension off vertical.  Generally, for me, center body over center mass is more correct for a longer cornering process, call it a 'sweep' with longer setup, longer drop and rise, and longer exit.

Having said that, I also ride with a guy older then me, that does everything wrong, sits on his bike like it's a couch, and is always further and further ahead at every corner.  I think he may be a Jedi.

[Cobie Fair]

Thanks all for the comments.  I think we might be on a few subjects.  

The one I had in mind was this point on attack or approach angle to a turn point.  What would be ideal is if we could get a drawing up here. 

Is anyone IT savvy enough to get us a simple line drawing up here we could refer to?  With a short straight and a corner at end of the straight.  Put an "X" for a turn point, then 3 different arrows laterally before the turn point, but side by side..  One straight on, one pointing slightly off track, and one pointing slightly into the turn...hope that make sense.  

[Jaybird180]

1 hour ago, Cobie Fair said:

Thanks all for the comments.  I think we might be on a few subjects.  

The one I had in mind was this point on attack or approach angle to a turn point.  What would be ideal is if we could get a drawing up here. 

Is anyone IT savvy enough to get us a simple line drawing up here we could refer to?  With a short straight and a corner at end of the straight.  Put an "X" for a turn point, then 3 different arrows laterally before the turn point, but side by side..  One straight on, one pointing slightly off track, and one pointing slightly into the turn...hope that make sense.  

You could draw it by hand, snap a pic and upload it.

[Cobie Fair]

That did occur to me...if we don't get any takers, I will do that.

We're a bit slammed at the moment, prepping for what is a 6 week tour, 21 school days, all across the country, wahooo!

[CoffeeFirst]

See if this works …