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Aging riders...what's techniques are priority?


Cobie Fair

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Coffee!!!  You rock, this is perfect.

OK, let's call "B" neutral attack angle, and "A" negative angle, "C" positive attack angle.

Name one specific thing that would change adversely from using B to using A?

 

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Coffee, right you are, on both counts.  Jayb, good that you notice it.

How about the amount of head rotation that is needed to look into the turn?  An already challenging factor for many--to look in to the right next location/target right after the turn point (maybe the apex if it's in view).  With a negative attack angle (let's call A negative, B neutral, C positive attack angle), does one have to rotate their head more?  Let's say a rider did the 2-step technique (defined in Twist of the Wrist 2), and rotated their head 20 degrees into a turn, before turning.  With a negative attack angle of 10 degrees, then 50% more head rotation would be needed than "normal".

 

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No doubt, more head rotation is required to look into the turn / apex.  

You also reduce your "margin for error".  If you're on the B angle of attack and miss the turn point (so turning late) you still have plenty of pavement in front of you to get it done. However, if you're on the A angle of attack and miss the turn point, because you are pointed off track, you have less pavement directly in front of you to recover.  Depending on our pace this can also use far more of your mental attention than desired. 

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Reduce the margin for error, good point, let's look at that for a moment, and one more piece of this.  If on the "A" attack angle, will the throttle timing have to change, meaning when the throttle control can begin to roll on?

 

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Hmmm.  A bike on attack angle A has a larger change of direction (turn) to make. As such, steering input will be slightly longer and it will take slightly longer (passage of time) to get the bike on line for apex and exit. So yes, throttle timing will change.  It might be almost imperceptible, but throttle roll-on will start later than a bike on attack angle B.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Good points Coffee.  Another way to look at it is more lean angle is used, as well as delayed throttle.  We used to spend a whole class on this point, there are quite a few pieces to it.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Advice as we age?  go slow and stay out of traffic.  

As for the approach angle question last posed, I still use a late-apex approach, but as I've aged, I tend to follow the arc of the curve more, rather than "point-and-accelerate."  

How old am I ? turned 66 this past spring, in my 27th year of riding.  Have attended CSS levels 1 & 2 in the past 10 years, best thing I've ever done; my wife agrees, said I'm smoother and more relaxed, when I came back from the classes.  

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Original topic: aging (yeah, I'm 60) and wisdom (not terribly wise, per my SO)...

- Eyes don't "flick" as fast as they used to. That 0.3 second timing to attain a focal point seems to be getting longer...

- Glasses NEED the wider field of view lenses.

- Brain tells our eyes what to look for and as age increases, this 'automatic' function can be misleading as it gets lazy.

- To the point above, Strength Training is imperative for the aging body.  I watched both my parents lose their "personal mobility" as they got older and became part of their recliners.  I decided that wasn't for me, so 4 years ago I got a trainer and started.  Neck rotation to see through curves ( 'A' vs. 'C' in the picture) cannot be lazy; this requires strong, flexible neck muscles.  Being able to grip the bike with thighs and legs, to avoid hanging on to the bars, also requires strength.  

- The last part of aging and 'personal performance' is hormones.  The 'acceptable range' for a male's testosterone levels has decreased in the past 20 years from 400-1300 to 200-700.  Most of us are now being told by our GPs that out T level is 'acceptable' at 250 when it used to be 850 and to not worry about it.  This is wrong on many levels.  Aging women also need their levels (including T) checked based upon what is/was "normal" for the individual, not the current range set by the current batch of 20-45 year olds. Hormone levels play a huge part in how we see ourselves, the mental game, and slf-confidence.

As far as cornering goes, the negative attack angle approach requires a quicker flick and more lean angle which is getting harder to reproduce consistently.  Apexing too soon with premature throttle roll on leaves no one satisfied and is a recipe for a mishap.

Racing & passing not withstanding, a nice leisurely positive attack angle works well on the streets for me.

Cheers!

 

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One of the things I consciously worked on at a school day is the eye flick mentioned by @53Driver. I have the habit from the concrete jungle, but found it to be a personal liability on the track.

I discovered that with an intentionally smooth eye movement instead of a flick things slowed down, my accuracy improved, field of vision improved and SRs weren’t distracting me.

This was that ONE NUGGET for me that day from a lecture Dylan gave that I don’t remember anything else. It was that impactful for me, personally.

I try to practice it once in awhile. I usually don’t get it right, being such an ingrained bad habit. It also causes me to reign in my vision at a spot about 20-30 feet away, on the asphalt. This ruins my sense of speed, timing, line planning….
 

There was once when I got it right, my wife asked “why are you driving so fast?” Normally, she’s the faster driver and I’m risk averse but it didn’t seem “fast” to me at all, but smooth. I’d found a groove where I could hold a near constant throttle range and it yielded low G-forces, which also served to mask how fast I was going. Johnny Law wouldn’t have been happy with me at all if we crossed paths that day. Wrong environment for practice, but hey.

So, as I age I have to remember that my bad habits are insidious and I don’t get enough track time for the improvement I want.

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1 hour ago, Jaybird180 said:

So, as I age I have to remember that my bad habits are insidious and I don’t get enough track time for the improvement I want.

Well spoken, sir.

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  • 2 weeks later...

OK, another efficiency point for the "aging rider", and that is hanging off.

At the School we regularly (like every day) see riders hanging off way too far with their lower body.  Let's look at the reason to hang off in the first place.  Anyone want to fill that in? (Besides looking cool in the pictures 🤣).  A short summary will do, just why do is it done?  (Not a trick question).

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Eventually, you’ll get someone who explains the math on the reduced effective lean angle. In my opinion, hanging off has become so ingrained into rider habits, that hardly anyone thinks about why it’s done- kinda like the leg dangle thing now. Here’s an anecdote that I copied/pasted to help drive the point, then I’ll say why I hang off.

There is an often told story around Thanksgiving Day about a family that always cut their turkey in half before they cooked it. This was certainly very odd by American tradition since everybody always served a whole baked turkey as the centerpiece for the Thanksgiving meal.

For many years this strange ritual went on until a child from the fourth generation decided he was going to find out why his family had such a very “strange” tradition. So he went up to his Momma and asked “why exactly do we cut the turkey across the middle whenever we cook one for Thanksgiving?”

 Somewhat startled by such a sensible inquiry, the mother decided to ask her mom exactly the same question the youngest had put across: “Momma, Why ‘do’ we cut the turkey in half?”

Grandma for her part could only scratch her chin and reply, “to tell you the truth, I can’t exactly tell why. All I know is that was how I saw my momma do it, and that’s how I’ve done it all these years. Why don’t we ask Great Grand Nanny!”

So they all huddled around the Matriarch as Grandma asked, Momma, why exactly do you always cut the thanksgiving turkey in half before you stick it in the oven?

Great Grandma sat her self up and with a look of disbelief she replied, “Did you never realize that our oven was never big enough to stick a whole turkey in? That’s why I always had to cut them turkeys in two,”

A few years ago, I had the fortunate time to be able to attend 4 CSS school days in rapid succession and then went to a “regular” trackday. It was a cool day and not many riders on track and honestly, I was a bit tired from work and other life stuff and I was trying on a new suit that I had custom made that was delivered a bit too snug- I struggled to get into it and didn’t really feel like riding the first session.

But I came down pit lane behind one of their coaches who was hanging off, switching side-side and we hadn’t even gotten on the track yet!

I’d already decided I was going to feel out my bike and my leathers and just get my vision up to speed before I begin to turn up the pace, but I was leisurely moving along- I don’t think I got much out of 3rd gear for the first lap or 2, except down the front straight…this was at NJMP.

When the session was over, he came back to talk to me and insisted that I get my butt over to get the bike to turn. I was internally conflicted, as I wanted his help later that day but coming over like he did (unsolicited) just annoyed me, so I agreed with him, but I really just wanted him to go away while I pulled and tugged and tried to figure out what to do with my new suit.

About midday, I donned my old suit and felt comfortable enough to up the pace. Now, that I have enough pace, I feel planted in the seat with my outside knee against the tank, my inside foot firmly on the peg and my head and eyes directing the trajectory of the arc I want to carve. If I’m too slow, it just feels like wasted energy to put my body into that position and then hold there for what feels like an eternity.

I do it to align my body with the G forces for the turn. When I do get my knee down (been a long time), I get another zone of relaxation, as I can then use the knee slider as another stability point to support my body weight and can use the throttle to take that weight off my knee, giving me feedback that there is more pace available that I’m not yet using.

I also do it to remove the view of the bike from my periphery where I have the relative motion of the road surface vs the non-moving windscreen disturbing my sense of speed. My sense of speed through the corner is more attuned to what is actually happening when I remove the bike from view- simply put, I can clearly see that I can go faster and my wrist agrees.

Lastly, I do it as I’ve noted that it allows me to get out of my own head and just ride.

I know that some of this is just a trick I play on myself, but when I allow myself to be fully in the moment (happening more often), I do get better results.

Sorry for the long diatribe. Feel free to remove the anecdote about the turkey.

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OK, there are several benefits, a few were just covered.  Let's go with a prime one as a starting point--less lean angle.  A valid point.  One has to only watch a little bit of  MotoGP with riders dragging elbows to see this put to use.

But at what cost?  And to what real benefit?  Daily at the school we see riders hanging off way too far with their lower body, and then they get whipped physically.  They are using muscles they don't often use, and if the inner thigh is not as strong as it needs to be, and the rider doesn't just hold on with the legs, what's left to hold on with?  The bars.  

3 riders were with a coach at a recent school, and the coach was working with them on this point.  When compared to a MotoGP star (young, top physical condition) these 3 were all in their 40's or older.  2 of the 3 were not lean.  Take a 140-160 lean and fantastically fit 25 year-old and compare that to a 50 year-old 200 pound guy that's not in top shape.  And has to work WAY harder moving on the bike than the smaller rider.  

There are more points to this, but is it clear enough so far?  

 

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OK, next piece of the efficiency game: how many of you have been to a school, (or on any ride) and noticed that at the end of the riding session you were pretty worn out/tired/sweating/had arm pump, etc.  Has this happened to you?  If at the school, ever notice a difference in how the coaches look at the end of a session? Additionally coaches will often have to ride 2x or 3x what a student rides in a day.  Not to just brag about the coaches, but what are they doing differently?

One point is how hard one holds onto the bike.  We discussed parts of this with how much one hangs off, but another part is how hard one is holding on, and with what?

I think we touched on holding on with the lower body, yes?  Did we touch on how hard to hold on?  How about just enough to hold on, and no more.  

A few years back really muscular guy came to the a school, and he had lots of muscle.  But he held on so tight, he literally blew up one of his arms, and couldn't finish his 2-day school.  That's an extreme example, but the point it...how hard are you holding onto the bike?  How much can that wear one out?

Any comments on this point?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Another point: if a rider is not strong enough for the riding he's attempting, he has to work even harder and gets more worn out.  This seems to be a real factor with legs, and inner thigh strength.  One of my senior coaches, not a spring chicken, realized he was quite tired after a few fast laps.  Over the winter he didn't do a ton of training, but did some, and worked on legs and inner thighs too.  He came back the following year, said it was worth an easy 2 seconds off his lap times at Barber, and he was less tired at the end of the day.  

So, if you need a reason to get some exercise in, there you go.

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

When Cobie says ''it's not a trick question'', watch out.

When I came to class as a first-timer, I leaned my bike under me like a dirtbike.  Proper instruction got me to lean with my bike, paying attention to CG.  What happened was that I had to lean a LOT less to get the same result.  It completely changed my street riding too.

I think it's a fair guess that the excess leaners are falling into the same trap as the 'lean to turn' fallacy. They think that they are 'pulling the bike down'.  As if.

I suppose if I started picking up some real speed I might find some benefit in moving off the CG of the bike to the inside, but I am a full minute off the track top speeds, and at that level, keeping my body aligned with the CG gave large enough benefits that body position was no longer the driving obstacle for me.

OK Cobie.....straighten me out. :)

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