Aging riders...what's techniques are priority?

[Cobie Fair]

Roberts,

It's astonishing what modern bikes (and tires) will do.  And a rider with solid technique on a modern bike can go really fast.  And I'm not just saying that to make your day.  I think the only regular coach at the school older than me (over 70) is Jon.  Jon doesn't hang off...at all.  And goes very well.

We've touched on a few parts in this thread, but there are even more points that relate.  

One is turning rate, that has a lot to do with excess lean.  If a bike is turned slower than what's needed more lean angle is needed to make up for the slow steering rate.

Another use of lean angle is too early throttle roll-on.  That can use up a ton of extra lean angle!

Is that point clear to all...how too early throttle uses up more lean angle?  I'll cover that in more detail if needed.

 

 

[Cobie Fair]

We have gone over a few things that help, let's look at the other side of the coin, how do riders work harder than needed, wear themselves out prematurely, do too much work on the bike?

Let's look at what happens with throttle application (beginning the roll on), and what that has to do with how much a rider works.  

Let's take a simple turn (90 degrees), and one the rider has to slow on the approach, so is off the throttle and slowing down entering the turn.  If the rider steers the bike over partially, but not yet fully onto a line that will get him to the apex and out of the turn (without having to steer again) and the rider starts to roll the throttle, literally even just cracks it open (very slight throttle).

In this situation, what line will the bike take?

[JohnCBoukis]

On 7/26/2023 at 7:57 PM, Cobie Fair said:

In this situation, what line will the bike take?

Hi Cobie. As you hinted at, there will be some distance to the apex, too outside, and heading too straight and a bit tangential still to the exit path.

[Cobie Fair]

John, your point above is correct.  And what is then required of the rider to get the bike back to the line he'd wanted originally?  He has to keep steering, has to keep leaning it over more to get back to that line.  Steering takes bar pressure, but once the bike is on line (in most instances) it doesn't require added pressure to keep it there.  But if the rider is being required to keep pressure on the bars as the bike is running wide, he is working when he shouldn't be.  

I say above "in most instances".  Some tires get worn, and the bike won't hold a line was steered into the corner.  Rode a nice Ducati that did this recently.  Steer the bike, get on line, and it won't stay there, wants to come up.  We found it that it just needed a new tire, and once that was on it was totally transformed.

Too early application of the throttle, too early a roll on, and the rider has to work harder.

[Cobie Fair]

We just spent 4 days at Streets of Willow Springs.  If a rider wants a track that will work you over, see where you are strong and weak, require precision, in other words--technically challenging--that track is about as good as it gets.

Sticking with the theme, what would be good for the aging rider at a track like that?  

How about a bike that is easier to ride?  2 of my top coaches rode the S1000r (single r, not the rr) while in Taiwan a few years back and both came back and said the same thing, "Can I get one as a coach bike?"

If racing, one would need the rr, but everything short of that, the single r is a substantial weapon.  That model gave nothing away in handling, and had even a little more mid-range.

Think about a bike (or modifications to your bike) that makes it easier to ride.  The full race-bike replicas are sexy, and for racing needed.  But there are some great real-world options that are very capable.  

Anyone going that route?

[Hotfoot]

I got to ride the BMW F900R out there for a session and that was a lot of fun! Low effort to ride, lots of torque, it was easy to steer and felt really planted in the corners. It would be a blast for canyon rides.

I rode the S1000r at a BMW event once and I had the same reaction as you describe above - oodles of power and great handling, wtih a more road-friendly seating position.

My only road-legal bike anymore is a dual sport, it is lightweight and comfortable to ride, but it doesn't take long to miss the fun factor of a 200hp superbike... so I can't stay away from the track for long.

[gpounce32768]

Am 55 now- looking to join you all in New Jersey May '24.  I like taking rider training once a year or so, and am a long term fan of ToTW- so taking the class will certainly be a step forward.    I'm more of a touring sort of rider but am very interested on skills development; I'd like to corner better & faster, employ traction more fully etc.

On my old R6 I found changing to 0 degree clipons was the biggest help for longer term comfort.   Another big help is putting on decent suspension, in cases where the OEM suspension is not great.

 

[Hotfoot]

On 9/22/2023 at 2:09 PM, gpounce32768 said:

Am 55 now- looking to join you all in New Jersey May '24.  I like taking rider training once a year or so, and am a long term fan of ToTW- so taking the class will certainly be a step forward.    I'm more of a touring sort of rider but am very interested on skills development; I'd like to corner better & faster, employ traction more fully etc.

On my old R6 I found changing to 0 degree clipons was the biggest help for longer term comfort.   Another big help is putting on decent suspension, in cases where the OEM suspension is not great.

 

That's great, we look forward to seeing you in New Jersey!

[Cobie Fair]

Gpounce,

You'll fit right in

[Cobie Fair]

Like to touch on another piece on this subject, and that is how is the steering done?  How many steer with both knees on the tank consciously?  How many push and pull the bars as a regular technique (especially in the faster turns where a significant effort is required to steer?

Knees on the tank can be used when not hanging off, but also in some turns can be used in the hung-off position to anchor and stabilize to the bike.  

I have 2 coaches that are over 63, and regularly ride all day.  One doesn't even exercise that much, hangs off when he needs to (neither of them hang off that much).  They have dramatically different leg and torso lengths.  

If one incorporates more of the body into the steering action, it can be done more efficiently.  There is some info on this in Twist 2, on Pivot Steering (a piece of this subject).

Anyone trying these to aid/reduce the effort for their steering?

 

[Hotfoot]

I'll jump in one this one - I do use pivot steering when riding fast, especially when I feel like I need more connection to the bike, like in a bumpy turn or when riding in windy conditions - Turn 8 at WSIR, for example. I sometimes get a little lazy on that technique when riding at a moderate pace but when I ride faster I start needing the leverage to turn the bike quickly and accurately. 

I normally steer with push only but if steering effort gets high, such as a fast chicane or some other sort of high speed quick turn (the kink at Streets of Willow comes to mind) then I incorporate push-pull.

[Cobie Fair]

Hotfoot, all that makes sense.

How many use Pushing and Pulling to counter steer at the same time?  If so where, what type of turn(s)?

I find I pull more with my left hand in right hand corners, where a lot of effort is needed.  I think this is so I can come back to the gas, have a lighter grip on the inside bar.  It wasn't something I consciously thought about, just something I noticed I was doing.

How do you use it (if you do)?  Chime in all you lurkers, I'm interested to hear what others do for steering.

 

 

[Jaybird180]

I'm a push kinda guy. I've been concerned that pull might cause unintended throttle inputs or too-tight on the left grip. I have however found myself pulling when accelerating and bringing up the mini. I found it fun having the wheel turn in and skidding the pavement hard on the gas coming out of the last turn. Haven't done it on the big bike yet.

[Cobie Fair]

Wow, that's a lot of deer. My cousin hit a cow once, but we were all going slowly, and all got up and made it home.  But the cow did blow cowshit all over him and his bike, we laughed at his expense.

My normal comment would be "go to the track 😁" but you know what that's about already. 

Hope you avoid any more deer dramas!

 

[Pepsi real sugar]

I got wordy....

my real take away was;

unlcear if it is the aging thing or the deer hits thing but....

I ride a bit slower, for shorter distances, with longer breaks and with less people involved and really stress my vision looking everywhere even more so than prior. (can't avoid what you don't see)

 

This fall I had a couple close calls with deer, but luckily not so close to make any contact... but the brakes and limits of tire adhesion did get some testing along with my vision and reaction skills.

 years ago; I hit a skunk, I did not laugh at how terrible that smell nor how long it lasted, I can only imagine cow manure. has to be even worse

[Jaybird180]

@Cobie Fair is this hanging off too much?

 

[Cobie Fair]

Amazing isn't it?  Too low for me

[Cobie Fair]

Just finished a quick trip to Taiwan.  Trip went really well, temp was about perfect.  A few flew in for that school and ended up renting some nice MV's, those bikes went very well.

A point that came up was tank pads, and the effect on rider wear.  Not sure we have covered it in this thread, so let's touch on that now.  Tank pads, and the most aggressive you can find--huge rider aid.  This is upgrade #1 for all my coaches.  While in Taiwan the coach bike I rode had old (and not that grippy) tank pads.  This really increases the effort to hold onto the bike, both in braking and cornering.  

We use the Stomp Grip here in the US, and their most aggressive line, Super Volcano.  Short version is a rider can hold on better with half the effort.  It's huge.  Students are all tired at the end of the day.  Coaches have to ride 2 or 3x, and having a good set of tank pads is vital.

[Jaybird180]

Once I rode with StompGrip on my bike, I never wanted to be without them. I’ve done several makeovers and a new set has always been on the purchase list.

[Cobie Fair]

Good idea 😁.

Additional application: some of us started to put a 2nd set lower than the tank, in the side panels if they will fit.  This works great under braking.  I have both tall and short coaches doing this and it works.  Might have to epoxy them on, depending on the panels texture, but worth it.

[Jaybird180]

Several years ago, I coated my tank (and body panels) with Rhino liner. It took more than I thought to do the whole bike, but I thought it would provide grip. I still needed the StompGrips.

[Cobie Fair]

OK, let's touch on another efficiency point, in particular on steering, at higher speeds.

Different bikes require dramatically different amounts of force to steer vigorously.  Ducatis in particular, due to their geometry, can require more force to steer.  There sometimes needs to be a balance between steering effort and stability.  

Wider handlebars are significantly easier to steer than narrower bars.  Tires can also be a factor, different profiles steer differently.

All good so far?

[Cobie Fair]

Here's a question, how many of you steer by pulling on the outside bar, either while pushing on the inside bar, or by itself?

[gpounce32768]

I push on the inside bar with attention paid to make sure the inside elbow is loose so as to help avoid weighting the bar.   Outside hand is along for the ride, just holding.

 

Concur about tires making a huge difference.  In 2022 right before my R6 ate itself I had a massive nail in the Q3+ rear 600+ miles from home.   Got a tow to a nearby bike shop for a new rear, all that had were Rosso's and I was shocked by how quickly the bike leaned with just that new rear.  I liked the Q3's but the Rosso on the rear felt like the bike was falling over in the corners until I got used to it.

[Cobie Fair]

Make sense, the tire profiles can make a huge difference.

Regarding steering, in the really high speed corners, sometimes it can help to us both arms to steer.  Can take a little practice to learn how to coordinate this, but also seems to reduce the effort (by do 50% with each arm, rather than 100% with one).  

Let us know if you try it, and if so what happens.