Hi And Thanks

[racer]

Hi JR,

 

I agree that we have been discussing apples and oranges and I have repeatedly attempted to highlight that precise fact by harping on the qualification of my own remarks vis a vis... FULL RACE COMPOUND and AT RACING SPEEDS.

 

Now, let's be clear and talk about reality...

 

The average bell curve of student riders at CSS probably puts the average free lap time at the school somewhere around 20-30 seconds (or about 30%) off a qualifying race pace. Or to put it more precisely: Qualifying race pace is between 7.5% to 10% of the pole time at a national/international type of event and 10-12% (or sometimes as high as 15%) for a club (if it is enforced at all there).

 

That means if the pole time at Laguna for the AMA 600 SS race is something like a 1:30 (Doug Chandler took pole with about a 1:31 the last time I raced there in 1998, it is surely below that now), then the last place on the 600 grid will be no slower than a 1:39 or maybe a 1:37 or even a 1:35 at FIM events. I'm guessing your "fast" students might be breaking 2:00. Maybe. Perhaps as fast as 1:55. And while the occasional racer who attends your school may go faster, that is the exception, not the rule.

 

In any case, by definition, "racing speed" on a 600 at Laguna is no slower than about a 1:37 or 1:39 lap. By definition, slower than that is not racing speed.

 

OK?

 

Now, with all due respect, your perceptions of your available traction as Camier rode around the outside of you at Sears Point or even the fact that he did ride around you is not actually relevant to anything ... except your perceptions. There is absolutely zero hard data in that anecdote.

 

What laptimes were you turning? What laptime was Camier turning? "Faster than you" in this context does not constitute anything truly meaningful as an argument to my point(s).

 

And, frankly, that sort of non-specific vaguery, if presented as argument, amount to characterization and "spin"... which is why I blew off this discussion. That and utterly non-responsive or on point replies to my questions attempting to clarify that the "major points" being made were apples to my oranges and did not need to be framed as refuting or contradictory to the well-known standard data I presented to be correct or valid in their own right.

 

Look, I can see how this is probably a real "hot button" topic at the school and that the issue is probably brought up everytime somebody crashes one of your student bikes. But... that is a very different issue. I mean... seriously.

 

Does good riding technique present less stress to the tires? Of course it does. Does the student who throws it away turning 2:00 laps at Laguna deserve his crash deposit back? Probably not. But even that is subjective. And I am not really talking about subjective perceptions or school pace in any case. Dunlop Racing specifies 10 heat cycles for race compound DOT tires... for RACING. Period. Full stop. End of story. My own extensive experience AT RACING SPEEDS (ie. circa 1:40 or better at Laguna) very much supports that. Experiences at like 70% race pace have NOTHING to do with what I am talking about. There is no "heat cycle dilemma" here. You can run 10/10 race pace on cycle 10. You are a fool to try to run 10/10 on cycle 11. Period. That is my point. That is my only point. Tire technology.

 

Riding technology is your deal. And what Lonnie or Camier can "get away with" is irrelevant. My rider, Midge Smart, got stuck running a set of rain tires on a drying track when everyone else ran slicks one weekend. He led from the gren flag and didn't fall to second place until the last lap. Astounding. That doesn't mean the tires were OK. Eh? They were melted to the carcass. Was that amazing? Sure. Would you want to try it? Probably not. The point is that what Midge did speaks to his riding skill, it does not speak to the reality of the tire.

 

The idea that race compound tires lose grip in a nice smooth arc or curve a little bit each cycle over the life of the caracss/tread is simply not accurate and moreover that data is not necessary to make the point that race take offs can be ridden safely at slower speeds. Or that riding "smooth" will give you better warning of when you are exceeding the tire's limits.

 

The bottom line is that my goal was to provide solid accurate data to novice track riders doing public type track days so that they are aware of the reality and can make a more informed decision of what tires to run and when to start being more careful if they do choose race compound. And maybe someone will avoid crashing (or dying) in pursuit of a faster lap. That does not take away from anyone else's major points which are just as valid on their face ... as mine are valid.

 

Respectfully,

racer

[acebobby]

All and all it is best to have proper technique and newer tires. I will continue to buy the Pilot Powers they really hold up well for me, maybe down the line I will be more aggressive at the track and want another tire, but for now these are great for street and track. It gives you a good feeling when you know your tires are new.

I agree, I have just put a pair of pilot power 2ct on my cbr and they are great on the road, still to do a track day on them .

[Hotfoot]

Hello Forum,

I just wanted to drop a line and Thank you all for the great information you all give up on this site. It has become one of my Favs. I can find almost anything about my bike and what not. I do have one question probably a easy one but my tires Pilot Powers after a run at the track orange peel alot and become very sticky...which is good It makes me feel more confident, but does lowering the air pressure and putting the heat cycles through the tires hurt them. I do ride the street with them and went to 2 trackdays, but pretty much wore out now. I guess Iam being picky considering some people at the track were changing after 1/2 a day. The tracks that I went to had instructors that told me to lower to 29lbs in rear and 30 in front. I have read that this is pretty typical beings your pressure comes up with heat/speed. Thanks again for the info

 

This has been an interesting thread to read, but although there have been many replies, it seems like only a couple have really been relevant to the original question, which was about Pilot Powers on a regular track day. Racer has posted a lot of information about racing and made it clear he is talking about full race tires at race speeds. I'm guessing that most of the readers of this board are riding at more moderate speeds on a more moderate tire, and in my experience the Pilot Power is terrific for exactly that. I use them and love them, and I typically will change them after 3-4 track days, though I could probably get more. After that they are still good for many miles on the street - I donate them to a co-worker that commutes to work.

 

I get the same orange peel wear pattern, and I take that as a good sign, as confirmed by the Michelin guy at the track. If I get a coarser wear pattern (tearing or rolling) it seems to be either due to pressure too low on really hot days (tire is getting hot and melting) or rear suspension set too harsh. I run them in a 29-32 psi range, on the lower end for cold days and the higher end for hot days. The Pilot Race is a more race-oriented tire, and I think that's the one that is recommended to be set around 22psi, or it could be the new dual-compound tire (CT2?) - anyway you have to ride those pretty hard to get them warmed up enough for maximum grip, and since I ride both street and track I am happier with the Pilot Powers, which warm up easier and seem to last longer. I have found, as Cobie said about the Dunlops, that the tires wear consistently and do not suddenly go to hell on you. I do notice, however, that these particular tires feel a little mushy on the first lap, then they warm up and feel great. Anyway, it sounds to me like if you are riding 2-3 days on them, running 29/30 psi, and getting a consistent orange peel pattern, you are right on target and ought to be able to have a great time at the track.

[Cobie Fair]

I haven't ridden on the Michelin's for quite a while (and none of the one's referenced), and don't track them as well as the Dunlops, can't claim to be much of an expert there. What I've noticed (and talked to our fastest coach/rider about--Will) is that when the Dunlops go off, what is lost is drive grip more than cornering grip.

 

When Will was chasing the championships here (and he won all 5 he entered), he told me that used tires compared to new (this is a broad spectrum, I realize) were worth about a second.

[2bigalow]

Hey Racer,

 

You absolutly right about my observations and that was why I posted my experience with Leon. I'm very aware of his skill and ability to ride a motorcycle to its limits, which is well beyond mine. Thus my point. Perception vs. reality. Tire wear, heat cycles, ect.. are common excuses as to why the average racer / track rider crashes.

I look at it this way.

If I were to ride a properly set up race bike with the latest and greatest BRAND NEW rubber against Leon on a lesser of a bike with completely shagged out tires, bald if you will, there is no doubt in my mind he would still blow right by me. His ability to "feel" the tires as they slide is what gives him the edge. If anyone is gonna ride at the professional level,as he does, they MUST be able to slide the bike, front and rear, at will well beyond the grip of the tires (new or old). The average club racer simply can not do this. Keith wrote a very good artical on here about riding beyond the grip of the tires. I'll look for the link.

 

Ok, I think we've offically jacked this thread from the original poster. Good debate though. Almost as good as the trailbraking thead.

[racer]

Hey JR,

 

Is this the link you were referring to?

 

http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=877

 

(Great article from Keith... as usual.)

 

 

I've been busy learning a new job and adapting to a radically new sleep schedule (takes a bit longer than it used to at my age) and this is the first chance I have had to get up here in a while. Along with studying new product line material for my job, I have been using my limited free time to memorize my borrowed copy of Twist II (before I have to give it back) to clear the cobwebs, get up to speed and be able to contribute more effectively here.

 

Again, I acknowledge and wholeheartedly agree that "feeling" for available traction is a critical skill at anytime on any tire in any state of wear.

 

That said...

 

My own experience riding/racing on DOT racing tires ended in around 1995. And the last time I raced regularly on any tire/compound was around 1999. And, although I rode the "sport compound" (extra sticky) Metzlers on my street bike in the mid-1990's, I don't know for certain how that compound would compare to the current "dual" compound (for street and track) Dunlops or Michelin Pilots. I don't suppose it is out of the realm of possiblity that DOT tire compounds have changed or maybe even improved just a little bit since then... I suppose.

 

My original goal in this thread was to point to some differences between "dual" and "full race" compound for novice track riders. And attempt to highlight that difference with an eye toward practicality and safety. However, I look forward to updating my personal perceptions ... soon.

 

 

 

Best regards,

BH

[racer]

I haven't ridden on the Michelin's for quite a while (and none of the one's referenced), and don't track them as well as the Dunlops, can't claim to be much of an expert there. What I've noticed (and talked to our fastest coach/rider about--Will) is that when the Dunlops go off, what is lost is drive grip more than cornering grip.

Most of my "incidents" with ten plus heat cycle "worn" race compound DOT tires were, in fact, losing the rear on the gas accelerating mid-corner. But, a couple of them were also pushing the front. However, I only fell once and it was by losing the front mid-corner in turn four(?) "keyhole" at Mid-Ohio, just before the drop off. You remember what that feels like... don't you Cobie?

 

When Will was chasing the championships here (and he won all 5 he entered), he told me that used tires compared to new (this is a broad spectrum, I realize) were worth about a second.

Yeah... not sure what he meant by "used" there. But, I can't imagine that he meant 38 heat cycles. In my own experience (I've never contested a complete championship, but, I do have a couple boxes full of club/regional level podium trophies and consistent top five national finishes from fifteen years ago), 0-5 heat cycles compared to 8-10 heat cycles on publically available DOT race compound was probably worth about one second.

[2bigalow]

Hey Racer,

 

 

Yeah that's the link. Great stuff.

 

I'm on the same page with you about getting good info for novice racers. Better new tires than new body work any day. I posted my experiences for argument and conjecture. And you can always give a good argument. I mean that in a positive way.

I sometimes just cringe when someone says they crashed because of the tires. Especially if I see it and think "NO" you crashed because....(This happened with a good friend of mine)

 

I crashed racing two weeks ago. Tucked the front on a down hill double apex corner. I could have easily said "It was the tires" but in reality I was on the bars too much with the number one and number two fingers of my right hand on their own program. You'd think they would know better. But none the less it was a crash. And I couldn't blame the tires 'cause I really liked the grip and feeling I was getting from them.

 

As far as Will running "used" tires, I'm sure it was lightly "used" tires. Not 38 heat cycles. Will is VERY good at sliding the tires and any sliding would just slow his lap times. But I'll let Will chime in on that one.

[racer]

Downhill double apex... Sears Point?

 

 

 

ETA: Sorry to hear about your fall. Hope you weren't damaged.

[racer]

I haven't ridden on the Michelin's for quite a while (and none of the one's referenced), and don't track them as well as the Dunlops, can't claim to be much of an expert there. What I've noticed (and talked to our fastest coach/rider about--Will) is that when the Dunlops go off, what is lost is drive grip more than cornering grip.

Most of my "incidents" with ten plus heat cycle "worn" race compound DOT tires were, in fact, losing the rear on the gas accelerating mid-corner. But, a couple of them were also pushing the front. However, I only fell once and it was by losing the front mid-corner in turn four(?) "keyhole" at Mid-Ohio, just before the drop off. You remember what that feels like... don't you Cobie?

 

 

ETA: Prior to losing the front in T4, I had received a big warning by losing the rear and getting very sideways over the crest of T10 into thunder alley and consciously backing off my pace. Dale Quarterly was right behind me when I fell in T4 and came to me in the pits afterward to ask what had happened. He said he couldn't see me do anything wrong and I was going relatively slow. I told him the only thing I could figure was too many heat cycles. He nodded knowingly and replied, "you can't cheat the tire man".

 

To be fair, this was years before Mid-Ohio was repaved and the poly/concrete patches played a big part of line choice and available traction.

[2bigalow]

Not Sears. Street of Willow turn 3. Walked away, but bruised or cracked a rib. My ego was hurt more than anything else. I crashed there before doing the EXACT SAME THING (wrong thing that is). I guess that makes me a really slow learner.

 

Mid Ohio is a great track. Yeah turn 10 gives me the willies too. The track is WAY better without the patches. Although, you can still feel the bike move around if you find the old seam. Doesn't compromise the grip though. Kinda like when a freeway seam pulls the bike around.

[racer]

Not Sears. Street of Willow turn 3. Walked away, but bruised or cracked a rib. My ego was hurt more than anything else.

 

Ouch! I'll try not to make you laugh.

 

I crashed there before doing the EXACT SAME THING (wrong thing that is). I guess that makes me a really slow learner.

 

Really? Maybe you just had too many heat cycles on your tires.... (KIDDING, KIDDING, KIDDING! LOL!)

 

 

Mid Ohio is a great track. Yeah turn 10 gives me the willies too. The track is WAY better without the patches. Although, you can still feel the bike move around if you find the old seam. Doesn't compromise the grip though. Kinda like when a freeway seam pulls the bike around.

 

Mid-Ohio was the second track I ever rode (with CSS on a 250 Ninja) after riding the 600 Ninja at CSS/Watkins Glen for my first ever track riding experience (and scaring the living piss out of myself... LOL!). I rode the 600 several more times with the school at Mid-Ohio along with spectating and cornerworking and then racing my 400 and 125's there. Due to those experiences in my youth (especially with the school), Mid-Ohio continues to hold a very special place in my heart. It's still one of my favorite (and most challenging) tracks to ride and spectate. I can't wait to check it out with the new pavement!

 

Get well soon!

 

Cheers,

BH