stuman

Just to beat a dead horse some more... ... here's a video of our mechanic Will at vegas last weekend. Now if you know Will, you know he is not prone to doing stuff that is going to hurt HIS bikes. He is the one that is going to have to fix them after all. And yet he never uses the clutch to downshift, is smooth as silk and one of the fastest riders I know. Sorry the angle isn't that great, but it is only a couple minutes long to bare with it.

No sorry, I'm not going to VIR this year. It is one of my favorite tracks though. I'm sure you will have a great time and learn a ton!

New tires are available from the school at the track. It would be best to call the school well ahead of time if you would like to purchase tires so they can be sure to have the right size on the truck for you before they leave for the east coast.

All the suites the school supplies are one piece and we do not offer pants or jackets separately. By the way the School supplied suites are AGV Sport and we supply Alpine Stars boots and gloves.

Come on man....

That is hard to answer Sajiv. Just by looking at the track map my guess would be that C4 is a prime corner for deep trail braking. Because I would probably be slowing deep into this corner, I would probably be able to keep the throttle open during the transition from turn C4 to turn C5. This will make the bike harder to turn so if that became an issue I might level off the throttle just enough to get the bike to turn, but I doubt I would completely close it.

Well I hate to say never, but yeah for the most part the bike will be easier to turn if you're off the gas when you turn it. Once you get the lean angle you want you get back to the gas ASAP. I don't say never because there are some corners on some tracks whey you don't have to let off. Usually these are really fast corners and you can stay on the throttle when turning in. This typically makes the bike harder to steer and Pivot Steering can really help in that situation.

The way you worded it is much better harnois

I didn't want to side track us with the standing up on the brakes thing... But since it has been brought up, one thing that Tony talked about in a seminar a couple years ago I found very interesting. Basically he said one of the main reasons why a bike will tend to stand up when the front brake is applied is because of the way the front tire will steer the front wheel into the corner. In terms that I can understand... If you are in a left hand corner, leaned over a bit and apply the front brake, there will be a force applied to the left side of the leading edge of the contact patch of the front tire. This in effect pulls the front of the front wheel to the left, counter steering the bike upright. there it is clear as mud. Anyway in my experience, every bike will want to stand up if you apply the front brake while leaned over in a corner. Some to a lesser degree, but all do want to stand up. On the gas it is obviously a different story. Most sport bikes will hold their line and application of the throttle shouldn't effect lean angle. But other bikes with different geometry will react differently when you roll on the throttle.

I searched Tony Foles book for a better explanation of this last night and read some interesting stuff about how rake, trail and front tire width would have an effect on this. Then my head exploded before I was able to find what I was looking for

Adding throttle and lean angle at the same time is a sure recipe for disaster. You might get away with it for a while but it WILL bite you sooner or later if you keep it up. This is one of the things we keep a close eye on at the school as it is the cause of many crashes. As for why riders do it? I think that has to do with being off line (running wide) and wanting to correct. If you have to correct and lean the bike over fine, just ease off the throttle a little when you do. Riders are always focused on rolling on through the corner and that is good, except when you combine that with making a correction. One thing that helps is to be comfortable when you are a little off line. Many riders get so focused on riding the perfect line that when they are an inch from where they want to be they correct instead of just riding it out. Not sure if this is your issue or not, but I know I had a problem with it for a while. It is easy to get caught up in the quest for the perfect line

It is a two day camp which means a lot of riding. Getting in shape for that would help you get the most out of it. Also, reading Twist of the Wrist II is a great prep for the school.

Good stuff harnois. I think it is interesting that a bike will stand up when you get on the front brake which should effect the suspension in just the oposite way. I think that mostly has to do with the way the contact patch kinda pulls on the front wheel when the brake is applied though, not really what the suspension is doing. Anyway, sorry I didn't mean to side track the thread. Anyone able to provide a good, technical explanation as to why some bikes stand up when you roll on the throttle?

Common misconception. Most sport bikes will not stand up. It might run wider, but shouldn't stand up.

Good question HotFoot, unfortunately I have no idea Not much help am I? I have Tony Foles book at home though, I'll see if there is sometthing in there that would relate.

Different goals, different lines. Street, stay safe. Track, go fast. The basic principals of a good line remain, but on the street you have less usable space, gota give the edge of the road and the center line a bit of a buffer.

Huh, I thought crash corener was that right at the end of the straight on the of the hill at Broadford? Anyway could be a suspension issue (not enough rebound damping) but I think it is just the way it is in those corners. If the bike is cresting a hill it is going to get a little light. We have a simular situation in turn 6 on the Big Track at Willow Springs. A couple things that might help. #1 good referance points are key, you have to be confedent your on-line even though you can't see where you are going. #2 Sometimes picking the bike up a bit as you go over the crest can help as well.

One thing to consider is that if your turning the bike quicker, it will require LESS lean angle to get through the same corner at the same speed. So the simple solution is just go faster lol

Based on your description Jason, I would suggest you take a session (or two) and work on the Two Step drill we went over in level one. It sounds like you need to make sure that your initial steering input is correct and that you are confident you can get the bike on the line you want in one steering input. Using the Two Step technique correctly should help with this.

I don't know about Cobie, but that is the only circumstance where I do clutcless downshifts on a roadrace bike, Turn 8 at Willow Springs is 6th gear pinned and I drop two gears for turn 9 without the clutch. At a good pace your leaned over quite far when you do the downshifts. Worked pretty well when I set a lap record.

The School teaches to downshift using the clutch and blipping the throttle to match revs for the most part. We have coached level 4 and RACE School students to do clutchless down shifts on occasion. We advise against letting the clutch out slow for the reason I stated.

Con for Clutched downshifts (downshift using the clutch) Some riders rather then blip the throttle and release the clutch quickly when downshifting, release the clutch slowly as they enter the corner. The upside of this is that allows them to use clutch modulation to control rear traction. The downside to doing this is if you have a lot of attention on how quickly you are releasing the clutch and using the clutch to control traction on conner entry, you have much less attention available for other aspects of corner entry like ENTRY SPEED. There is a lot going on at corner entry. A rider has to pay attention to their entry speed, turn point, front end traction and feel, quick turn, visual references and so on. Using the clutch to control your rear traction on the way into a corner takes a lot of skill and attention, you might be better off spending more of that $10 on your entry speed or front end feel.

here's a pro for clutchless downshifts. A clutchless downshift can actually be easier to perform and take less attention and coridnation then properly downshifting (and matching the revs with a blip) using the clutch. As I have seen from instucting the Code R.A.C.E. school, many advanced riders struggle with braking and downshifting using the clutch. One of the skills we cover at the RACE school is braking and downshifting. We have the students come down a very loong straight flat out and then late brake and drop three gears before the turn at the end of the straight. Cobie typically sits at the side of the track and observes the riders technique braking and downshifting. We then give the rider feedback on how they could improve. I've coached the RACE school for the past ten years and I've seen riders perform this drill a few hundred times, and I can't think of one rider that did three perfect downshifts the first time out. My point being, using the clutch and properly blipping the throttle to match revs and timing all that correctly takes a lot of practice to get it right. Most riders have to put a lot of attention on performing these actions correctly. Of course once you have it down pat, it is simple and you don't have to think much about it, but you don't get there overnight without some practice. Many riders struggle with the timing of when to pull in the clutch, when to release the clutch, when to blip the throttle and when to push or pull the shift lever. By performing a clutchless downshift you take two steps out of the process, thus simplfying it and reducing the risk of error and freeing up some attention.

And just to clarify, and make an attempt to get back on topic, a clutchless downshift is no more likely to cause any damage to the transmition then one done using the clutch. I don't think the images in the post above are due to the rider performing clutchless downshifts, even though that is the subject of this topic. It seems like every time the topic of clutcless shifting (be it up or down) comes up on a forum it leads to a discussion of whether or not it is bad for the tranny. Let me just state for the record that, when performed correctly, a clutchless downshift (or upshift) is no harder on the tranny then a shift done properly using the clutch. As for this thread, rather then continue to beat a dead horse, I'd like to pose a question or two Is there any advantage to doing clutchless downshifts? What are the pros and cons of clutched and clutchless downshifts? please no wise guy responses about how one of the cons is more wear, I can envision Jason typing this as a write

I think it might go with enough force but that is a very good point Hotfoot, I think most times it won't even come out of gear if you don't do it right. Your right, it either works or it doesn't.