stuman

Ok for those that have attended the Superbike School. What was the best thing you learned? What really made things click for you? Only one thing

Ok let's get more specific. For those of you that have had a front slide on pavment without falling, what did it feel like?

One point to consider, Counter leaning or pushing the bike under you (crossed up) creates MORE lean angle. More lean angel = less traction. Less traction = greater chance of loosing the rear and highsiding yourself to the moon. So yeah if you push the bike under you you might stand a better chance of saving a highside, you also stand a MUCH better chance of creating one. Do you want to take that chance? I don't. As someone that rides a lot of supermoto and motocross, I can say that when I ride those types of bikes I do push the bike under me in some corners. When I ride MX or flat track I push the bike under me in pretty much every corner. When you have little traction (front or rear) being on top of the bike allows you to handle the bike better when it is sliding around and most importantly allows you to stay upright and recover from FRONT slides which happen all the time in dirt. However on a supermoto you mix the two styles. Faster more sweeping corners you ride roadrace style and hang off the inside of the bike. Slower, tighter corners you push the bike under you. By the way, I also take my inside foot off the peg and stick it out to the side when pushing the bike under me. I also sit as far forward on the bike as I can going into the corners. My point? Some stuff you do on a dirtbike or supermoto is the exact opposite of what you do on a sportbike. Not everything works the same even though they both have two wheels and the same physics apply. The advantage of hanging off the inside of the bike is that it allows you to reduce the lean angle of the bike and this allows for more cornering clearance, better traction and higher speed or level of safety. The downside is if the front or rear lets go it is much harder to save, but you decrease that chances of a slide happening in the first place by reducing lean angle. The advantage of pushing the bike under you is that it allows you the create more lean angle in slow corners and this can make the bike turn a tighter arc. Also you are more comfortable when the tires are sliding and it is easier to recover from a slide. The downside is that pushing the bike under you reduces the available traction and cornering clearance. All that said, on pavement, on a sportbike (which is what most of us here ride) pushing the bike under you or crossing up is considered poor technique. On a sportbike the speeds are higher, there is more traction available and the advantages of hanging off far out weigh the disadvantages. I think that recommending someone push the bike under them on the street or track because they have a better chance of saving a highside or have a better view is very bad advice and I'm having a hard time understanding why anyone would want to argue that case. Just FYI, pushing the bike down while adding throttle on the exit or a corner is a sure recipe for disaster and something we watch for very closely at the school. Crashes due to a rider pushing the bike under them and creating excess lean angle are quite common at track days and schools as well. I know of one school that teaches riders to push the bike under them, but they teach it for slow speed parking lot maneuvers and U-turns. It works great because you can push the bike under you and get the bike to turn tighter by creating more lean angle, I use this technique on my Concours when I need to make a real tight turn. OK one last point. By pushing the bike under you on a dirt bike or supermoto you do increase your ability to save a highside. One of the main reasons for this is because you can quickly stand up and let the bike move under you. Thing is, on the dirt and on a supermoto the highsides are much smaller and with much less force because the speeds are slower. there is less grip and the bikes don't weigh much. On a sportbike the speed and forces of a highside are far more violent and your chances of saving one by standing up are greatly reduced, even if you do stand up your going to get pitched off. because of the increase grip on pavement and the increased weight of a sportbike, if the backend comes around and then hooks up quickly, your body position is not going to make a bit of difference, your going for a ride that will end pretty abruptly.

Hey Russell, welcome to the forum. I moved your two topics to this forum as it is more appropriate for these types of questions. The "School Questions" forum is for questions about the school and this one for questions about riding in general. Also you might try the search feature, Body position and counter steering have been discussed here many times and there is a wealth of information about these topics on some of the pst threads.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Stevo. I think the guys at the track day were probably right, it was moving I think many riders have the same feeling about traction as you in that they want to find that limit but aren't sure what to expect. I'm not so sure about the trying to listen to the front tire thing. I've never used that as a tool and I think using any of your attention trying to listen for some warning might not be all that productive. Your $10 is probably better spent elsewhere.

100% hooked up plus 10% slip.

I think something that seems to be coming to light is that often slides happen abruptly and without warning. When this happens is is very hard to react. Sometimes you get lucky and freeze up, which is often the best course of action, do nothing. I think that there are other circumstances when the slide is less abrupt though and in these cases it is possible to react. The description of having the rear wheel "falling out from under you" or ""going sideways" is important. When the rear wheel starts to come out of track with the front it is a pretty clear indication that the rear wheel has lost traction. The further you let that type of slide go the harder it will be to "catch" it and recover. I think the rear wheel tends to slide like this when at greater lean angles. If the bike is really leaned over and the rear wheel starts to slip it tends to "step out" more. If the bike is more upright and your feeding in enough power to get the tire to spin some, it will still stay in line and you don't feel the rear getting out of track. With regards to abrupt front slides. I think the front has a MUCH greater tendency to slide abruptly if you are on the brakes. Which is why trail braking can be such a dangerous proposition. Conversely, if you can carry enough corner speed to push the front a bit, the slide is less abrupt. Keith conveyed some interesting information to me he got from a tire tech. What I took away is that tires provide their maximum traction with about 10% slippage. So I take that to mean if you are 100% hooked up, you still have a ways to go before you are actually using all of what is available. Let's here from some others that haven't posted in this thread yet. I'm interested in others thoughts on this subject. Post up

So let's here it people, don't be afraid to post up your thoughts. Let's here from some others... What do you feel for? How do you know how much traction is available ?

We at the school are kinda all about using logic to break stuff like this down to specifics. That's kinda the point of this thread. Might not always work, but if we can find something that will work a large percentage of the time I think it is a worth while discussion.

Hmm, so it is "feel" thing that can't be put into words? You should approach it gradually... So if the tire slides you have reached the limit of available traction? Is there any warning as you approach your max? We are not just talking about using all your traction on the brakes, using it all on the gas would be more important to me. I'm a racer and I'm not advocating searching for the limits of traction on the street. However, I know there are probably a few people on this forum that are interested in going faster around a race track. To do that, at some point, you need to start searching for the limits of traction and attempting to use all your available traction. I have seen a lot of riders with great lines, markers, body position, etc. that weren't going nearly as fast as they could, they weren't willing to use all of what was available to them. The point of performing a lot of the basic techniques is to maximize your available traction. So break it down and be specific if you like. How do you know how much traction is available on the exit of a corner? How about mid corner (front or rear)? Entry? If it is a "feel thing" then what are you feeling?

So I hear/read about how you have to be willing to use all your available traction to go fast. It comes up all the time when talking about braking, how you can only use so much of your max for braking and the rest for turning and stuff. So like, how much traction do you have? How do you know when your using it all?

suspension setup.

Welcome to the forum. I'm glad you had a good time at the school. I went to Dubai for a school a couple years ago. What an interesting place. Crazy hot when I was there though

Did you over cook turn one? Looks like you went really wide. Over all the lap looks pretty good, although it's kinda hard to see much with that camera position. Looks to me like you could turn the bike a bit quicker...

Not really, that has more to do with the "feel" of the tire. The new Dunlop N-Techs have very good feel and are super sticky. Do you have a dirt bike? Flat Track is a great way to get the feel for sliding the rear around...

I'm looking forward to see what Peter does in '10 !

Just thought I would start a thread for those forum members that might want to meet up at a track day or school. I plan on doing the WSMC rounds at The Streets of Willow on my motard... wana race ?

And now that we have brand new BMW 1000Rs this decision becomes a little more complicated

I'm glad I could help

Single day school = 5 rides each day. two day camp = 7 rides each day. Do a search this topic has been discussed several times on this forum.

Hey Jayson, I don't think the advice you got at summit point was all that bad. If you are leaving a ton of room on the exit then you probably can go faster, but it doesn't necessarily mean you can go IN faster. One point about the exit. I think it is a good idea to try within reason to hold the bike tight on the exit of a corner. If you have a buffer coming off the corner then you know you might be able to use some of that up and go faster. It's how you decide to use your buffer that is important. If you intentionally run the bike to the outside edge of the track coming off a corner, you don't really have a good idea of how much you have left. Know what I mean? If you can consistently hold the bike a little tight coming off the corner you might try using that buffer up by standing the bike sooner and getting on the gas harder. Then you can use up some of that buffer and gain some exit speed. Back to the original point of your post... I think it is hard to judge your entry speed based on how you exit the corner. I think you're better off gaging it using your turn point and apex. Where you able to put the bike where you wanted it to be at the apex? Did you turn exactly where you wanted to? Were you able to relax just after turn in? Or were you tense? Were you able to end your braking where you intended? Or did you get hung up on the brakes going in? How soon did you get back on the gas? How quick did you turn the bike? These are just a few things that you can use to judge your entry speed after the fact. I'm sure we could think of many more. The point is if you turned the bike where you wanted, turned it quick, got your braking done where you wanted, got back in the gas right away and nailed your apex then chances are your entry speed was "correct". If you turn the bike slow because you were scared, or weren't able to relax right away, or blew your apex, or were afraid to get back on the gas until the corner was done, or got hung up on the brakes then you might have over cooked it a bit. If you did everything right but felt like you could have gone faster then you probably could have. Gains in entry speed come very slowly for most and you have to cut yourself a little slack. You're not going to be able to add 10mph going into most corners without giving yourself a coronary. You have to be satisfied with small gains over time and keep working at it. I work on my entry speed all the time and I'm never satisfied. However, there have been times when I felt like I was riding really well and that feeling had a lot to do with my confidence going into the corner. I think entry speed is one of the toughest things for any rider to improve. My best advice is ... baby steps. Don't bite off more then you can chew, you will only set yourself back. Work your speed up slowly, like .01 mph increments.

I think to make the question more accurate you should define what you mean by "right entry speed". What is right for you might not work for me. I'm never satisfied with my entry speed, so I never get it right

Incase your interested, we had a reeeeeeeaaaaaaaallllllllllyyyyyyyy long discussion on this topic a while back. I think I posted just about all I have to say on the subject there... http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.ph...l=trail+braking

Hey Jason, It was great working with you and thanks for the kind words in your write up I'm glad you had a good time and even better, learned something.

Also From this weekend... Johny "Daytona" Haynes - he hates it, which is all the more reason this one should stick. I'll let him explain in private to the UK guys where this came from But it sounds cool ( like a 70's porn start name) and it even comes with a little tune (think porn music, bow chicka wow wow) and dance Timmy "Vegas" Johnson - he earned this one this weekend as well