tmckeen

Unless its a crested road where your tires are on a off camber surface, AND the road falls away under you, I don't think it matters. A off camber surface means you will need less lean angle from vertical ( relative to the horizon ) to make knee contact with the road, but the angle required relative to the plane of the road surface will be the same regardless of the camber of the road. If you want to get technical sure a positive camber allows for higher cornering force, which compresses the suspension more and reduces the bikes ground clearance slightly. As long as you're comparing the negative camber to 0 or equal positive camber I think the difference would be negligible. Maximum lean angle is going to be a function of available grip, and ground clearance. So the decision to use maximum lean angle would be based on not only the camber of the road, but your tire choice, suspension settings, and the grip level of the road itself. If your knee is fully extended to make contact with the road surface is that your maximum lean angle ?

Hawk, If you're running a pace at the lower end of the fast group and you've never managed to get your knee down, its probably a result of your body position. Without seeing any pictures I'm going to guess your not rotating your hips into the turn, and as a result you're not actually sticking your knee out far enough to make contact with the pavement until your lean angle is borderline excessive. It was a problem I had until I went through lvl 3 at CSS, i was using enough lean angle to occasionally drag the peg feelers on the schools BMW's, yet had 0 knee contact ever.Hanging your ass off the seat more causes problems, but rotating your hips into the turn helps in a few ways, first it lets you lock onto the tank with your upper thigh, second it naturally shifts your upper body into the turn and helps get your helmet "in the office" so to speak, and third it lets you really crank your leg out to feel for the pavement. It's pretty common for newer track riders to obsess about not getting their knee down. A few of the corner workers I met at the ridge asked me about it and seemed concerned that they hadn't managed to drag their knees. My response to them was that obsessing about it now won't help at all, just keep riding, focus on your technique and it will happen eventually. However once your pace has picked up and you're carrying more speed and more lean through corners, the knee puck becomes a important reference point, and just like not having visual reference points, not having that one to rely on can hold you back. Rchase, Imagine a hypothetical corner, where you're doing everything right, good reference points, body position, throttle control the whole thing is just flawless, and despite having your knee stuck all the way out you have no contact with the pavement. What does that tell you about your entry speed ?? Tyler

I would agree with Kevin, 4 year old tires, even if they still have decent tread on them, are probably not the best for the track, and will most likely result in that little nagging voice in the back of your head wondering if your tires are going to work. I would recommend getting a set of the Q3's FROM the school that morning, the school's student price for tires is cheaper than pretty much anywhere else your going to find, and Will or Daniel will mount them for you there, I do believe there is a small fee for the mounting, I would suggest you arrive early and let them know you need tires first thing so they can get them changed before your first track session. Good luck with your school day, your going to love it Tyler

Course Control at CSS uses the following flags, Yellow, Red, Blue, Black, Checkered Yellow: Can be used in two ways, Standing or Waving, it is always used to warn riders of a potential hazard on or around the track, this can be a rider off track or debris on the track, the Standing Yellow indicates that the hazard or change to the track is upcoming in a few turns, the "Waving Yellow" indicates it is in the next turn or two, depending on how many flagging locations a track has. Under both standing and waving yellows there is NO PASSING, riders are expected to back off their pace slightly and ride with extra caution. Red: This flag is only used one way, waving, A waving Red Flag indicates a hazard on the track itself that needs to be addressed by course control before the track can go "Hot" again. All flagging stations will display the waving red regardless of their proximity to the hazard that has resulted in the Red Flag condition, once the waving Red Flag is displayed all riders are expected to reduce speed, and move to the right hand side of the track, preferably off the "Racing Line", exit the track as normal and return to the Hot Pit for further instruction from Course Control. There is NO PASSING under a red flag. Blue: This flag is know as the "Creative Riding Technique Flag" , it is Course Controls primary means of communicating with a rider while they are on the track, It will be waved or shown and then pointed at a specific rider to signify something they did in a PREVIOUS TURN that was of concern to course control. This can vary from failing to follow the riding format for the session, IE. brakes or shifting during a no brakes one gear format, to any number of poor or concerning riding techniques. Such as multiple steering inputs, power shifting, throttle and lean angle, dragging hard parts etc. etc. When shown the Blue Flag riders are expected to continue riding as normal, DO NOT pull over and attempt to ask a corner worker why you have been blue flagged !!!! if you are unable to determine what you did to receive the blue flag and want to know, exit the track as normal and proceed to the hot pit and ask course control. You do not however need to come in and ask unless you want to. Black: The Black flag is only used by course control at Start/Finish, it is used to communicate with a rider that course control needs to speak with them, when shown the black flag continue to ride as normal, exit the track and proceed to the Hot Pit to speak with course control. Checkered: Used only as a waving flag, signifies the session is over, depending on track layout may be shown at multiple corners, ride as normal and exit the track, return to pits and park your motorcycle in the assigned location, then meet with your coach at the designated spot for debrief. It is advantageous to meet your coach as quickly as possible following the riding session, there is a limited window between the end of the riding session and the beginning of the next classroom brief, so immediately following your riding session is not the best time to use the restroom or get a snack from your car. debrief with your coach first, then attend to other business.

to be fair Eirik, I do believe some of the photos of Schwantz you have posted in the other thread are in fact well timed mid crash shots, even Schwantz himself has mentioned in interviews that some of the more spectacular photos of his use of lean angle were taken during a crash he was unable to save. Tyler

Welcome to the forums Badger, best of luck making it out to a CSS school, I'm jealous that you're close enough to Barber to be able to attend there, it looks like a fantastic track. Also I'm pretty sure anyone with Skull and Crossbones knee sliders doesn't exactly want them referred to as "Cute". I think they look pretty cool, just might have to get myself a pair Tyler

You can find various pictures of MotoGP riders where they appear to not be locked onto the bike at all, for example there are numerous shots of Crutchlow at full lean with his outside leg not even on the footpeg. This is merely a example of how motorcycling is a very dynamic skill and how the faster you go the more things change. When cornering at a moderate pace, which results in a moderate lean angle, being properly locked onto the bike is very important to allow the rider to support their upper body without applying unwanted pressure on the bars. however when cornering at a aggressive pace, and a aggressive lean angle the increase in all the various forces involved changes the way the rider must interact with the bike. For example: In perfect physics world, cornering at 60° results in a massive 2G's of load factor, which means physics world Rossi is being pushed down into the seat of the bike 2x as hard as he is when perfectly upright, he also weighs 2x as much as he normally does and has to support that weight, but the way he supports it and interacts with the motorcycle itself is considerably different than someone at a a 30° lean angle with barely over 1G of load factor holding them in place. For normal riders, in the real world, this is most noticeable in heavily banked or "Bowl" turns where the added G force "sucks" you into the turn.

That is a great quote that was recently exemplified for me by a fellow student during my lvl 4 school day. As a result of a recent increase in pace she was encountering new challenges with the interaction of the motorcycle in transitions. With every breakthrough you achieve there arises new barriers and problems that must be sorted out, When reviewing riding styles through the ages It is important to remember that they have evolved alongside the technology of the bike, and in many ways were adapted to the available technology at the time. Marquez is not the first rider to drag his elbow, that was done as early as 88 on a 250 gp bike. His riding style is possible due to massive improvements in suspension, tires and linear power delivery. The unpredictable nature of the old 500cc two stroke's would make Marquez's riding style near impossible, and probably result in some of the worst highsides ever seen. We seem quick to forget how much more dangerous racing was in the past, and how much more common crashes were. Comparing the riding styles of someone on a temperamental 2 stroke who was racing around armco barriers and hay bales to that of someone on a bike managed by a army of technicians and sensors with huge groomed runoffs and airbags in their leathers is like apples and elephants IMO. Tyler

No throttle roll on, reduces cornering clearance however, its highly unlikely that was the belly pan scraping, more likely a peg feeler, or as its the left side of the bike possibly the kickstand, I'm pretty sure you'd end up dragging the case cover before you managed to scrape the "belly pan" on that bike

If only there were some rudimentary system that would allow the ECU to tell when the clutch was engaged ......

Setting the sag on a bike is pretty easy with the help of a friend, even easier with some wheel stands and some plywood for leveling purposes

ABS and "TC" are 2 very different things, although technically ABS is a form of TC, when referring to "TC" your talking about a system that prevents wheel spin by retarding the engine in some manner and limits power delivery based on lean angle etc. Yamaha has sold the FJR1300 with ABS since 2004 ( option ) , and 2006 ( Standard ). however they only added TC to the 2013 model, ABS on street bikes has been around a while, BMW was the first back in 1988, followed by Honda in 1992. I think the S1000RR was the first production bike to come with modern "TC" in 2009

Welcome to the forums Jethead, best of luck getting to CSS down at VIR, I'm sure its gonna be awesome with the fresh new pavement on that track. What brought you back to motorcycling after your brief hiatus ?? Tyler

Shouldnt that be Decrease Breaking as you enter the turn ?? And you don't always need to trail brake all the way to the apex, you can turn in on the brakes and trail them off before you reach the apex,

Heres the Front

always great to hear student success stories, I'm pretty sure you guys were parked / pitted across from me, that track is super fun to ride

Stock suspension, forks were serviced and new seals maybe 2 years ago, the shock I'm pretty sure has never been serviced 28,880 miles on the Odometer The light was bad where I was parked so I couldn't get a good photo of the front tire, but I'll post some when I get it unloaded from the van and back in the garage Its a fairly balanced track, depending on what you count as a corner its pretty much 8 rights and 8 lefts, but you do spend more time at full lean on the left side of the tire

From The Ridge, end of day 4 running around 1:52-1:55 lap times

Heres a few shots from my trip up to The Ridge last week

By disassembling the caliper do you mean removed the pistons ? Its possible there is still some air trapped in the system somewhere, after completely rebuilding my calipers It took a lot to get all the air out of the system, something Eirik had mentioned about pulling the lever in and zip tying it overnight really seemed to help. Not sure about cleaning the brake pads themselves, but after considerable research when rebuilding my brake system it seems resurfacing the rotors when changing pads especially when changing to a different pad compound is recommended, some people recommended bead blasting, some just sandpaper or scotchbrite, some suggest using a special hone. I went the hone route and the results were quite favorable. I do have some before and after pics, but the difference is less noticeable in the photos than it was in person Tyler

Very cool chart !!! Dont forget however that the increased contact patch size at ~40° of lean angle is also the result of the increased cornering load deforming the tires carcass and the resulting lateral acceleration is consuming a considerable amount of the traction thats available, it doesn't change the fact that the more upright the bike the harder you can accelerate.

I mean like, Running Water ? Flush Toilets ? Air Conditioned Classroom ? Showers ? On Site Fuel ? Snack Bar ? The website list's lots of plans but it doesn't really say anywhere what has been built and what is still waiting to be built

The weather report looks good, anyone know what kind of facilities they have out there now ??

Anything that helps someone prepare mentally for a task they are about to perform is a good thing IMO, with virtually anything you want to do, mental confidence plays a huge part in doing it well its why hot streaks and momentum work in sports, and why "slumps" exist. If its putting on the same pair of socks, or reciting a prayer or a poem, a particular series or warm up exercises, or like for myself the way I put on my gloves before each ride. I dont think it makes me particularly superstitious or that I have a compulsive disorder. I dont believe that putting my gloves on just right will somehow ward off evil spirits or prevent me from being run over by a semi truck on the freeway. Its just a habit I've developed over the years and I stick with it. The order and way I fiddle with my gloves before each ride helps get me in the proper mindset to ride the bike, be it the 50 miles of crowded freeway to work in the morning, or the track session I'm about to head out for. As for restarting my "ritual" if I put the wrong glove on first, as its such a ingrained habit the fact that I've somehow screwed it up means I'm either rushing, distracted or both. in which case taking a moment to breath and focus on what I'm about to do is probably a good thing.

Ok so, the purpose of suspension is to keep the tires in contact with the road, and absorb all the little bumps and ripples and imperfections that asphalt and tarmac have, Imagine for a moment you have a bike in a wheel chock, stand on the pegs and bounce up and down, the suspension works quite well absorbing the force and keeps the tires on the ground, basically the same thing as riding over some really rough pavement, now get off the bike and shove it sideways, the suspension does nothing as the force applied is perpendicular to its direction of travel. this is what I mean by "Works best in the vertical, doesnt work at all in the horizontal" and for simplification assume vertical to always be perpendicular to the surface of the road, not the horizon. The combination of force your alluding to is called Load Factor, its the resulting G force felt in the Z axis of a vehicle that is under the effect of 2 gravities. the math for this stuff is mostly all for airplanes and its not quite 100% totally the same, cause bike have tires with width and the CoG is moved off center with body position and lots of other little differences, but they are very similar so it basically applies it just not absolute because real world application and physics math world are VERY different. Basically a vehicle at 45° of effective lean, or bank angle, will generate 1 G of horizontal acceleration, and have the constant normal 1 G of atmospheric gravity, this results in 1.41 G load factor applied in the Z axis, at 60° this becomes 2 G's and skyrockets from there, your 80° lean results in like 5.8 G of load factor. However none of this really matters, because no matter how much you lean the bike over, the bumps and ripples in the pavement are still on the pavement and basically in the "vertical" plane, yes the suspension will always be absorbing the load factor thats applied in its plane, but its ability to absorb imperfections in the road surface becomes less and less effective the greater your lean angle. This is why frame stiffness is a finely tuned aspect of a race bike as it provides some of the actual "suspension movement" at high lean angles. Too stiff and the bike can't absorb anything, not stiff enough and it wont keep the rubber on the road so to speak