Exceptions To Throttle Control Rule

[acebobby]

I have recently been working on my throttle control and am getting quite good at following the rule ( once the throttle is cracked on, it is rolled evenly, smoothly, and constantly throughout the remainder of the turn) doing this makes my bike feel great!

I have been thinking about the exceptions to this rule and what to do then as next month I am going to the nurburgring nordshlief for our annual bike trip, I dont know if anyone on here is familiar with the track but the carousel is 180 degree banked turn and wondered, would this be one of the exceptions to the rule and if so what should be done?

Also what other exceptions do people encounter and how do you deal with them without upsetting the bike?

[Cobie Fair]

I have recently been working on my throttle control and am getting quite good at following the rule ( once the throttle is cracked on, it is rolled evenly, smoothly, and constantly throughout the remainder of the turn) doing this makes my bike feel great!

I have been thinking about the exceptions to this rule and what to do then as next month I am going to the nurburgring nordshlief for our annual bike trip, I dont know if anyone on here is familiar with the track but the carousel is 180 degree banked turn and wondered, would this be one of the exceptions to the rule and if so what should be done?

Also what other exceptions do people encounter and how do you deal with them without upsetting the bike?

 

Don't know that turn specifically. You have probably read the exeptions in Twist 2 on not being able to roll the throttle on, on pages 20 and 22, so not going to transcribe those here. What about this turn makes you think you can't---too fast at the end? Is there a drawing of this turn we could get up here?

 

Cobie

[racer]

I believe the carousel Caricciola-Karusel is just after km 13.

 

http://www.scuderia-hanseat.de/en/nuerburgring-roadmap.html

 

 

I believe the approach is uphill prior to dipping down into the left hand carousel. I'm not sure about the exit.

 

 

 

Here are some photos of the carousel/banking:

 

http://www.tsrennsport.com/weblog/?p=366

 

http://www.tsrennsport.com/weblog/?p=367

 

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&...=1&ct=title

 

 

 

And apparently they are racing on the Nordshliefe again!

 

 

My bucket list definitely includes riding a race bike on the Nordshliefe. But now I will add driving for a 24 hour team.

 

Hello Mini! Hello Porsche! Here I am on Nordshli-efe!

[hubbard_28]

I have a decreasing radius turn (does a 180) on one track I ride at, and find myself braking well into the turn and rolling on the throttle through it. The rule applies for me there, but I'm not holding it in a perfect half circle.

I think some of the turns the pro's take are defensive lines. They come in short so if someone was going to pass it would have to be on the outside. I've never raced, but thats what I'm assuming. You can brake into the turn and take it farther out, pushing the bike a little away from the inside edge. Once you're off the brakes, start rolling on the throttle, and the rule comes into effect. Apex toward the end of the 180, and you'll be able to crack the throttle earlier getting a better drive out of the corner. Hope this makes sense.

I have picks on myspace.com that shows me going way out on that decreasing radius with everyone else underneath. I get a great drive from there into a high speed corner, and am able to pass whomever was going shallow before the high speed corner.

[acebobby]

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=e...003304&z=18

 

Racer it is actually the hair pin turn just before 14 km in your picture, they seem to have put the name next to the wrong turn!

There has been racing on it every year I have been, 6 hr endurance race with cars that is amazing to watch! also BMW use it for driver training and you can hire a seat in a BMW M5 ring taxi driven by a pro race driver for a lap with traction control swiched off, I did that last year and it was the craziest thing ever, we were passing ferraris and all sorts of super cars sideways!

 

cant seem to get pics uploaded hopefully this link to google maps will work and there are some pics there too!

 

 

What about this turn makes you think you can't---too fast at the end? Is there a drawing of this turn we could get up here?

you have to take the turn low on the slabbed area, roughly about a car width all the way round, the radius is quite constant and it can be slippy especially when wet, not sure what the banking angle is but it looks really steep when you are aproaching it!

I do think that due to the distance traveled around this corner that by using the throttle control rule you could be going very fast at exit!

 

I have a DVD where Kenny Roberts wins the championship there in 1978 and 1980 and on one lap in the 1980 race he must go into it too fast and pops out of the banked area and goes around the top, on every other lap he drives round fast and always wheelies at the exit, I guess this maybe answers my question, the throttle rule does come into play at this corner, for Kenny Roberts anyway!

[kwh]

A bit of Google-Fu and then...

 

Karrussel pictures...

 

From http://www.pbase.com/cmanaginged/image/65570669/original

 

 

From http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2007/07/19/10-b...hleife-corners/

 

 

And then if you go to 5:30 in this video and let it run you can see what the approach to and through this corner looks like from a Suzuki GSXR600 on a (very) fast lap. You can also listen to the engine note to work out what is being done with the throttle...

 

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=idIgZq3hELk

[acebobby]

thanks kwh that is an excelent picture!

[Cobie Fair]

Good picture. That would be a challenge with the throttle, wouldn't it? Wonder what that concrete is like, if one could transistion easily on/off it. Looks like a fairly classic double apex type of turn.

 

C

[racer]

Nice photo kwh!!!

 

I didn't have much time to search and only checked the first couple of links. Thanks for your effort!

 

Hi ace,

 

You are right, the label on "my" map should have been on the inside of the loop to be closer to the carousel corner. I knew it was the left hander after the hairpin and figured folks would get that when I pointed it out as the left hander.

 

Cheers,

 

racer

[racer]

Good picture. That would be a challenge with the throttle, wouldn't it? Wonder what that concrete is like, if one could transistion easily on/off it. Looks like a fairly classic double apex type of turn.

 

C

 

 

Sort of reminds me of the old Loudon banked turn... in reverse.

[kwh]

I draw the assembled company's attention once again to the on-bike video I posted a link to with the photos. It depicts a sub-8-minute bridge-to-gantry lap of the Nurburgring. On a stock 600cc sports bike. During a public session featuring mixed traffic. The Karrussel appears from 5:30 on the tape...

 

The absolute outright motorcycle lap record of the Nurburgring Nordschliefe is held by one Helmut Dahne, set in 1993 on an RC30 while qualifying for an endurance race, when bikes still raced at the ring. It is slightly sub 8 minutes for a full lap, meaning that the rider in the video (a local ring-meister) is only about 20 seconds behind Helmutt over a lap!

[racer]

Stop teasing me!!!

[kwh]

One more quick video - this is somebody filming all the action at the Karrussel from the outside of the corner at the exit during a 'Touristfahren' (i.e. public lapping) session last summer.

 

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=...8371061960&

[racer]

Wow. Just wow.

 

I've finally had a chance to watch the video clips and... wow.

 

The f1clipz vid that starts with Niki Lauda on the grid is amazing, especially in contrast to Nick Heidfeld in one of today's "modern" F1 cars. There is a downhill S-section (around 3:45 I think) where the 1975 cars clearly have their inside (or left) front wheel totally off the ground while pushing through a steep downhill left hand corner like a sprint car ... killer spot. It's amazing how loose the 1975 cars are everywhere, actually. The difference in ground effects is pretty clear when watching Heidfeld's lap.

 

The double apex nature of the Carousel can be heard clearly in both videos as both cars audibly back off the throttle while setting up for the second apex. Interesting that Heidfeld kept well off the concrete at the inside of the Carousel. It looked pretty bumpy from the on-bike video lap by the GSX-R 600. Probably some deterioration of the expansion joints since 1975, I expect. Reminds me of the old concrete highways around here. Bump da bump da bump da bump... or in his case, di d-di d-di d-di...

 

But, more importantly perhaps, what's really obvious in the BMW photo is that the angle of banking increases sharply in the center of the concrete strip. The bike stays down in the steeper part near the curbing, and the old F1 cars seem to be able to straddle it, while Heidfeld stays clear of the inside entirely. Probably due to a lack of ground clearance over the sharp transition more than the bumps, but, either will do to tear up the bottom of his modern F1 car, I suppose. Many corners have similar camber characteristics on race tracks. For instance, though it isn't quite so pronounced or offset with concrete, the inside of the International Horseshoe at Daytona comes to mind as a corner where the camber is significantly increased near the curbing and decreases the wider you get.

 

That is a great set of videos. Thanks again.

 

racer

[Cobie Fair]

One more quick video - this is somebody filming all the action at the Karrussel from the outside of the corner at the exit during a 'Touristfahren' (i.e. public lapping) session last summer.

 

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=...8371061960&

 

 

I just had a look at this video--what I hadn't known before was how much banking was on the inside where the concrete it. Tons, while the outside has much less, big distinct change in the camber.

 

C

[acebobby]

This is the problem I face, there are alot of chalenging corners on this track, 73 in total but this one has bothered me for years, every time I come up towards it I see it, I know I have to go round the concrete area and it always looks alot more extreme than it really is, I know thats the fastest way round but also on the public session it has been known for cars to take it to fast, pop out the concrete banked area and rip there sump plugs off meaning there can be oil on the top area, so on the bike it is always better to go low, I always end up nursing my bike round it and this year I just want to do it well and get over it, due to time and cost this year I will probably only get 4 laps so I have picked a few corners that I want to work on and get right but this is my main one!

I think that I will be sticking to the throttle control rule as it has worked so well for me in other situations now but will be entering slowly and rolling on very gently to get a feel for it!

 

Thats my plan for this turn, Thanks for all of your opinions and research on the track guys you have been a great help!

 

Bobby

[Jaybird180]

In my local area there is a section that has become somewhat of a practice area. I had realized how my poor throttle control habits were affecting SOOOO many areas of my riding and decided to change that. I used this area of sweeping turns. It takes about 2-3 mins to do the whole circuit. Over a 2-3 week period I worked this area, disciplining myself to stay in 3rd gear, not use any brakes and to stay in the gas and DRIVE the corners.

 

I started at a well controlled speed and worked until I knew I could take each corner at a certain numbered speed as indicated on my speedo and I setup FOR THAT SPEED each time.

 

Buddies that have ridden this with me, did not have the patience for this but I kept to my discipline. It has helped tremendously for me.

 

Perhaps you should find a section that you could use where repetition is your ally. Keep it short and make measured progress.

[kwh]

This is the problem I face, there are alot of chalenging corners on this track, 73 in total but this one has bothered me for years, every time I come up towards it I see it, I know I have to go round the concrete area and it always looks alot more extreme than it really is, I know thats the fastest way round but also on the public session it has been known for cars to take it to fast, pop out the concrete banked area and rip there sump plugs off meaning there can be oil on the top area, so on the bike it is always better to go low, I always end up nursing my bike round it and this year I just want to do it well and get over it, due to time and cost this year I will probably only get 4 laps so I have picked a few corners that I want to work on and get right but this is my main one!

I think that I will be sticking to the throttle control rule as it has worked so well for me in other situations now but will be entering slowly and rolling on very gently to get a feel for it!

 

Thats my plan for this turn, Thanks for all of your opinions and research on the track guys you have been a great help!

 

Bobby

 

The trouble with the Nordschliefe is that while it's an amazing challenge, on a bike the price of either making a mistake or being caught out by somebody elses mistake is very high indeed. The combination of no run-off, almost no marshalling and a mixture of traffic (not just bikes, but everything from GT2 Porsches lapping in under 8 minutes to tourist coaches lumbering around in twenty and the full spectrum in between) makes riding the Nurburgring fast a slightly less safe activity than juggling chainsaws.

 

I've been to the place twice, ten years apart, for a total of about ten hours combined, and both my two visits were marred by fatalities closing the circuit while I happened to be there, and also punctuated by a procession of ADAC wagons dragging smashed up cars and bikes away from the ring.

 

My god it's fun, but it's the kind of fun that you really do want to put all your affairs in order before you participate in.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_k6PafKKAiQ

 

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=L3UhlX33KuI

 

[racer]

Holy sh*t!!!

 

That first link looks like the car crashes that bike totally on purpose! The car totally moved over toward the inside of the exit of the turn into the bike's path for no apparent reason whatsoever... except to block the bike from passing.

 

Man, I would NEVER ride a motorcycle on a public track day with mixed vehicles like that. That's insane. It gives road ragers and maniacs free reign to kill someone and even get away with it. WTF!

 

EDIT: Ok, from the opposite angle you can see that the car must have been crossing the track to line up for the next corner except that he was going so slow he didn't have to and must not have checked his mirror first. At least that is what I will choose to believe so I can sleep tonight.

[kwh]

Holy sh*t!!!

 

That first link looks like the car crashes that bike totally on purpose! The car totally moved over toward the inside of the exit of the turn into the bike's path for no apparent reason whatsoever... except to block the bike from passing. That video should have been given to the police for attempted murder!

 

Man, I would NEVER ride a motorcycle on a public track day with mixed vehicles like that. That's insane. It gives road ragers and maniacs free reign to kill someone and even get away with it. WTF!

 

Actually the car was on the racing line and the biker thought that the car had moved over for him and went to dive past on the inside, the car merely took the correct apex for the corner, unfortunately the biker was already committed...

 

Edit: It is actually technically a public road during open sessions, all be it a one way toll road with no speed limit. Therefore if you crash, the police will investigate and apportion blame.

[racer]

Yeah, we were cross posting just now. Didn't see your nic down there, kwh. Are you lurking? Heh heh.

 

Anyway, you can see I edited my post while you were posting a reply.

 

Actually the car was on the racing line and the biker thought that the car had moved over for him and went to dive past on the inside, the car merely took the correct apex for the corner, unfortunately the biker was already committed...

 

Well, after watching several more times, I still disagree with your analysis. From my point of view, the car was well past the apex of that corner and was going quite slowly, ie. not committed to any line and made a sudden change in his line (very incorrectly) to move back across the track to line up for the next turn without checking his mirror. If you wait until the end, I believe that is the opposite angle from a stationary camera on the sidelines and you can see better what I mean.

[kwh]

Yeah, we were cross posting just now. Didn't see your nic down there, kwh. Are you lurking? Heh heh.

 

Anyway, you can see I edited my post while you were posting a reply.

 

Ah! {Waves}

[racer]

Still cross posting.

 

This set up doesn't work for IM'ing in real time very well.

 

I have edited my previous post again since you quoted it.

[acebobby]

The trouble with the Nordschliefe is that while it's an amazing challenge, on a bike the price of either making a mistake or being caught out by somebody elses mistake is very high indeed. The combination of no run-off, almost no marshalling and a mixture of traffic (not just bikes, but everything from GT2 Porsches lapping in under 8 minutes to tourist coaches lumbering around in twenty and the full spectrum in between) makes riding the Nurburgring fast a slightly less safe activity than juggling chainsaws.

 

I've been to the place twice, ten years apart, for a total of about ten hours combined, and both my two visits were marred by fatalities closing the circuit while I happened to be there, and also punctuated by a procession of ADAC wagons dragging smashed up cars and bikes away from the ring.

 

My god it's fun, but it's the kind of fun that you really do want to put all your affairs in order before you participate in.

 

I agree 100% that it is very dangerous there and I also have seen them close the track for fatalities and other bad crashes, this will be my 5th year going there and over the years I have learned some ways to reduce the risks involved with riding the Nurburgring!

 

First of all I never ride it on a Sunday as it is crazy, loads of tourists from all over Europe go for weekend breaks and It gets very busy with no room for error also the tour coaches and ring taxis run on Sundays! On week nights the track is open for 2 hrs and It is so much quieter then with mostly locals that know the track just out for a bit of fun so thats when I go on, I have done complete laps on a week night before without seeing any other traffic. I also never time my laps I do it for fun and speed up at the sections I like and know well, If someone is in front of me I dont try to beat them round the corner, I sit back untill they finish thier corner then pass them on the straights.

 

The utube videos are horrible, I normaly try to aviod watching things like that. That is a bit ignorant I know but I can only focus on what I am doing to the best of my abilities . When you say its the type of fun where you really want to put your affairs in order before you participate, that thought just sends a shiver down my spine.

 

Bobby

[kwh]

When you say its the type of fun where you really want to put your affairs in order before you participate, that thought just sends a shiver down my spine.

 

Bobby

 

Sorry :-(.

 

Mind you, it's best to be realistic about these kind of things, and make a few discrete contingency plans before you head off to the Green Hell, I think. Denial means leaving a hideous mess of loose ends for the people left behind to try to sort out, just at a time when they are least able to cope.

 

The late, great David Jeffries apparently used to make every booking in his diary before the next Isle of Man TT as a firm commitment, and every booking (for e.g. personal appearances or to compete in one-off events) after the next TT as 'provisional', with a comment that he would firm the arrangement up after the TT. He was very matter-of-fact about why he was doing this, and no doubt he made other arrangements as well before setting off for the island every year that eased his family's burden when the inevitable tragedy not of his making struck him.

 

The weekends on the Nordschleife are indeed a terrifying zoo, as I have had the misfortune to experience first hand. But even on a quiet weekday evening, if the vehicle ahead of you is e.g. a Porsche GT3 that happens to be overheating and spitting out coolant from its header tank all over the track then I fear that no amount of 'sensible' or 'skilled' will keep you upright if you find a patch of it with the front wheel in one of the 140mph corners. And the Nurburgring is just not a place you'd ever want want to fall off a motorbike, given the choice. If you do, it would seem from what I've seen and read that life changing injuries are very common, and that fatalities aren't a rarity.