Exceptions To Throttle Control Rule

[acebobby]

I do agree with the dangers involved in riding the ring, I have seen cars blow thier engines and leave a trail of oil for about half a mile. It can be a scary place to ride a motorcycle!The first time I ever went there was with the intention of riding 1 lap of the notorious gp track the green hell just to have done it, I watched old races there and could not believe that it was open to the public! After I had done my lap I was hooked and I had to go back, however I dont treat it like a track day but more a spirited road ride due to the lack of run off, I knowthe risks and probably make all the excuses to justify them!

One questionfor you! You have been there kwh, would you not do it again?

[Cobie Fair]

One comment on something earlier in the thread: using the speedo to track/judge your corner entry speed. Every one has a sense of speed, and it's a skill that can and should be worked. Race bikes don't have speedos (certainly not the majority) and riders can get into trouble looking down at the speedo when they should be looking up! There is more on this in Soft Science if you guys don't already know that.

 

As for the 'Ring, I guess don't mind hanging my neck out a bit, but when others could chop it off...I dunno.

 

C

[Jaybird180]

I agree with you 100000 percent on the sense of speed thing Cobie. However, I had been suffering with confidence problems. And doing it this way, I could enter at a predicable speed each and every time until I was satisfied with my line and throttle control (smooth roll on, looking through corner, etc). Then I could focus on small increments of speed increases 2,3 or 5 mph and remind myself to keep the SRs in check that I was well within the limits. When the confidence picked back up and faster riders joined me...the speedo had to go and the speed climbed using sense of speed.

 

But alas, Soft Science is on my "To Do" list.

[racer]

But alas, Soft Science is on my "To Do" list.

 

Grrrr.... don't get me started!

 

Do you need me to loan you $20?

[Jaybird180]

No, just put that on your To Do list too. :-)

[Cobie Fair]

I agree with you 100000 percent on the sense of speed thing Cobie. However, I had been suffering with confidence problems. And doing it this way, I could enter at a predicable speed each and every time until I was satisfied with my line and throttle control (smooth roll on, looking through corner, etc). Then I could focus on small increments of speed increases 2,3 or 5 mph and remind myself to keep the SRs in check that I was well within the limits. When the confidence picked back up and faster riders joined me...the speedo had to go and the speed climbed using sense of speed.

 

But alas, Soft Science is on my "To Do" list.

 

Excellent, glad to hear that. Hey Racer, lend me $20?

 

C

[racer]

I agree with you 100000 percent on the sense of speed thing Cobie. However, I had been suffering with confidence problems. And doing it this way, I could enter at a predicable speed each and every time until I was satisfied with my line and throttle control (smooth roll on, looking through corner, etc). Then I could focus on small increments of speed increases 2,3 or 5 mph and remind myself to keep the SRs in check that I was well within the limits. When the confidence picked back up and faster riders joined me...the speedo had to go and the speed climbed using sense of speed.

 

But alas, Soft Science is on my "To Do" list.

 

Excellent, glad to hear that. Hey Racer, lend me $20?

 

C

 

I'm sure we can work something out...

[acebobby]

Well tomorrow morning we head of to the nurburgring, I cant wait to get there. This will be my 5th time there but my 1st since practicing and studying the CSS methods of riding, unfortunately I haven't had much track time this year, in fact the only track time I have had is my level 1 at Rockingham but I have done close to 10000 road miles this year and every 1 of them done practicing techniques from my level 1 drills to everything listed in the TOTW books! So hopefully I can now confidently tackle that carrousel without issue, my goal is not for a mega fast lap but for a smooth flowing lap so will not be timing my laps!

 

Thanks guys for all your advice!

 

B

[racer]

I envy you, mate.

 

Godspeed and have a safe ride, Bobby.

 

Come back alive and tell us all about it!

[GregGorman]

I humbly submit my video of the 'ring from 2004 on the K1200S - mistakes and all.

The Carrussell concrete is VERY banked and bumpy. The pavement is almost flat. This is one turn where you really want to get on the throttle as soon as possible just to take some weight off the front and allow the suspension to work.

 

I enter the Carrussell at 5:55. At 5:58/59 range I get on the throttle and roll it on very gently through the rest of the turn until the exit where I miss timed a hard roll-on for a wheelie. Because of how motorcycles can enter the turn and late apex it, it's not really a decreasing radius turn.

[kwh]

Well tomorrow morning we head of to the nurburgring, I cant wait to get there. This will be my 5th time there but my 1st since practicing and studying the CSS methods of riding, unfortunately I haven't had much track time this year, in fact the only track time I have had is my level 1 at Rockingham but I have done close to 10000 road miles this year and every 1 of them done practicing techniques from my level 1 drills to everything listed in the TOTW books! So hopefully I can now confidently tackle that carrousel without issue, my goal is not for a mega fast lap but for a smooth flowing lap so will not be timing my laps!

 

Thanks guys for all your advice!

 

B

 

Best of luck!!

[acebobby]

I managed to get 6 laps of the ring done on monday evening, it was amazing, the track was dry and it was reasonably quiet! There were a few bikes on and a few super cars, but most of the time I had the space to enjoy my laps. I did the carrousel low on the concrete slabs, I forgot how bumpy that section is but just got on the slabs and immediately started to roll on the throttle throughout the corner, I am happy with the way I took it and I really had good exit speed, on my first lap a dodge viper followed me onto the slabs, wow what a noise that V10 made right behind me throughout the corner, it certainly took a few dollars of my attention from me! The next section after the carrousel is a good fun technical section of track with all types of camber changes and some very steep elevation changes, I really felt good in this area practicing good throttle control and my quick turn is improving loads, I cant wait to return next year as this year was for sure the best I have ever done, I put that down to the CSS and this forum for the things I have learned over the last year!

So next up for me is a trackday at Knockhill later this month, unbelievable from nordshliefe to knockhill in a couple of weeks lol I dont think you could get 2 tracks so different but it is my local track and I need tracktime before the winter comes!

 

B

[hubbard_28]

All the tracks I've done are terribly flat. I would have no clue how to load the bike on elevation changes. Glad to hear you've found a good line.

[Cobie Fair]

All the tracks I've done are terribly flat. I would have no clue how to load the bike on elevation changes. Glad to hear you've found a good line.

 

Load the bike on elevation changes---do you mean cornering load for uphills and downhill sections?

[racer]

I would have no clue how to load the bike on elevation changes.

 

That can be a more complex question than it might seem at first glance. First, the basic bias goal and standard throttle remain the same. Just like a flat corner, I want to match the relative tire loads to the relative sizes of the contact patches, typically 40% on the front and 60% on the rear. Ignoring any crests, the rub is how much more or less acceleration you need to achieve this bias on a hill. It is easy to see that if you are traveling uphill, static bias is offset to the rear and vice versa when traveling downhill, ie. there is more weight on the rear tire when pointed uphill than when the road is flat, and, when pointing downhill, there is more weight on the front. So, it is easier to overload the front when going downhill and it takes less power to spin up the rear. Going uphill, the challenge is to keep enough load on the front. However, there is more to consider due to the 'natural' camber that can be created by the 'fall line' of your particular hill.

 

Take for example Turn Five at Road Atlanta where Josh crashed last week. It is a deceptively fast corner due to the relationship between the fall line(s) of the hill and the corner creating a postive camber or "banking" which allow a rider to throw it into the turn quite hard as the line is across and into the fall line of the hill. However, T5 is even more complex because there is more than one fall line to it and, passing the apex, the road surface is now also going uphill in the new direction of travel. Additionally, the road surface dips (or used to dip) toward the inside near the inside curb like some other corners we've discussed recently. Not until the exit does the road surface 'level off' (side to side) at which point your positive camber goes away.

 

So, although it is a fairly tight corner, there is a good deal of natural "banking" to be utilized and it is really a much faster corner than it looks. Are you with me so far?

 

 

(entry) http://www.paulspruell.com/motorsport/pfsp...tlanta_1985.jpg

 

 

(exit) http://www.tradebotics.com/2002/Road%20Atl...20and%20320.jpg

[hubbard_28]

All the tracks I've done are terribly flat. I would have no clue how to load the bike on elevation changes. Glad to hear you've found a good line.

 

Load the bike on elevation changes---do you mean cornering load for uphills and downhill sections?

Yeah. Like what Racer is talking about. I know I can't just go to the corkscrew in Laguna and toss the bike side to side like I would at 1-2 at Firebird East (flat like everything else I ride, except my wife.....) and get the same results. I'm guessing I'd have to be more ginger on the top to keep more weight on the front tire, but at the bottom don't have a clue how that would work. Donnington looks challenging as well.

 

As a matter of fact, turn 1-2 is what is on my avatar, and has the biggest elevation change in the three tracks at Firebird. About 3 feet.

[racer]

Here are some photos of Road Atlanta Turn Five to go with my last post:

 

(entry) http://www.paulspruell.com/motorsport/pfsp...tlanta_1985.jpg

 

(exit) http://www.tradebotics.com/2002/Road%20Atl...20and%20320.jpg

[racer]

All the tracks I've done are terribly flat. I would have no clue how to load the bike on elevation changes. Glad to hear you've found a good line.

 

Load the bike on elevation changes---do you mean cornering load for uphills and downhill sections?

 

Yes. What do we need to consider when cornering uphill or downhill?

[Cobie Fair]

All the tracks I've done are terribly flat. I would have no clue how to load the bike on elevation changes. Glad to hear you've found a good line.

 

Load the bike on elevation changes---do you mean cornering load for uphills and downhill sections?

 

Yes. What do we need to consider when cornering uphill or downhill?

 

I think good throttle control is the key there. A few weeks ago, I turned a bike very quickly in a chicane, and had a little throttle on (little too much as it turns out). Front came off the ground, and when it landed was cocked a little (thought I was on my head). Good TC is vital at the corkscrew too, reminds mne of that chicane in fact, which is uphill!

[hubbard_28]

I'm the opposite. I always come off the throttle for some reason. It's taking a lot to get to be able to keep on it. I don't know when it started happening, but suddenly it did.

[acebobby]

I like elevation changes, especially uphill turns, the bike feels really good and stable through them but for me downhill right turns seem to cause me problems the most, It is basicly a case of every SR in the book kicks in, since I realise this I can defeat them by holding true to throttle control rule no 1 and try to keep from vision fixation but always end up taking the turn slower than I would like!

I think the problem with downhill turns is that knowing you must try to get 60% 40% weight balance means that in theory you should need more throttle than in a flat turn to get the weight off of the front, and even more if you brake hard before the corner.

[racer]

All the tracks I've done are terribly flat. I would have no clue how to load the bike on elevation changes. Glad to hear you've found a good line.

 

Load the bike on elevation changes---do you mean cornering load for uphills and downhill sections?

 

Yes. What do we need to consider when cornering uphill or downhill?

 

I think good throttle control is the key there. A few weeks ago, I turned a bike very quickly in a chicane, and had a little throttle on (little too much as it turns out). Front came off the ground, and when it landed was cocked a little (thought I was on my head). Good TC is vital at the corkscrew too, reminds mne of that chicane in fact, which is uphill!

 

I have no problem with the top of the corkscrew. It's Rainey curve (I think), the long left hander in the middle that used to have a bump (transition) exiting on the gas that bounced the front of my 125 over about three feet even after softening up the forks. I really gritted my teeth there. (I think it has been re-paved since I last rode there.)