Rain Cornering.

[racefactory]

Hi there, Awesome forum! Unfortunately I do not have access to the trainer bikes as you have in USA (god i'd love to go on them) so I have a few questions: I have kitted out my bike with rough fairings and crash knobs and I want to learn a few things before setting out to find out this stuff... My concerns are primarilly wet riding: Obviously in the dry, modern day tyres can support massive lean angles up to and past the pegs and sometimes body work of a motorcycle, so we can be confident that we can crank it right over... as we all do when it's sunny! However, in the wet, lean angles are limited yes no? So what i'm wondering is how far do you know you can lean? What signs tell you that you are at maximum permitted lean and it will fall if you go any further? There must be some sort of sensation that tells us? Check this video out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=se9DOJQyW00 and this

. I'd love to have those rain skills! Have you guys learnt to peg scrape in the wet?

[acebobby]

Hi race factory, welcome to the forum! What country do you live in as the CSS operates all over the world!

Riding in the wet is something I do alot since it rains loads here, first of all though think tyres, are you running full wets or road tyres! Michelin advertises their pilot power 2CT road tyre as capable of 51.2 degree's in the dry and 43 degree's in the wet! there is alot more to wet riding than going round in circles in a carpark though,

Braking, when and how hard do you apply the brakes compared to in the dry?

Quick turn, how quickly can it be done in the wet?

Roll on the throttle, how hard do you roll it on in torrential rain before the tyre lets go?

Riding in the wet is good for practicing skills and techniques smoothly.

[Jaybird180]

Michelin advertises their pilot power 2CT road tyre as capable of 51.2 degree's in the dry and 43 degree's in the wet! there is alot more to wet riding than going round in circles

Good explanation. Wish I'd thought of that!

[Cobie Fair]

Hi there, Awesome forum! Unfortunately I do not have access to the trainer bikes as you have in USA (god i'd love to go on them) so I have a few questions: I have kitted out my bike with rough fairings and crash knobs and I want to learn a few things before setting out to find out this stuff... My concerns are primarilly wet riding: Obviously in the dry, modern day tyres can support massive lean angles up to and past the pegs and sometimes body work of a motorcycle, so we can be confident that we can crank it right over... as we all do when it's sunny! However, in the wet, lean angles are limited yes no? So what i'm wondering is how far do you know you can lean? What signs tell you that you are at maximum permitted lean and it will fall if you go any further? There must be some sort of sensation that tells us? Check this video out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=se9DOJQyW00 and this

. I'd love to have those rain skills! Have you guys learnt to peg scrape in the wet?

 

Hi Racefactory, and welcome!

 

Good questions regarding rain riding. Here is one thing we have found: the levels of traction can be RADICALLY different from racetrack to racetrack, and even change at the same track, from one season to the next.

 

We have ridden some tracks (like Pocono East) and have had students dragging their knees in the rain, on our Dunlop Qualifiers. We've ridden at other tracks, and it has been so slippery and polished, that nothing like that was possible.

 

Of course street riding has it's own factors, with fluids that leak on the ground, traction in SoCal right as it starts to rain is amazingly slippery, and much better after a good rain where the surface gets washed off.

 

Best,

Cobie

[racefactory]

Ok thanks for the replies. So no one knows how to desribe the feeling? I'm very, very afraid to lean any more in the rain.. I want to go further... but am afraid of getting to the angle the wheels will just slip away at. Is it noticeable, do the wheels gradually slide out? Does the steering get very light? Does the bike weave about? Does it simply fall down very sharply after getting to that point? These are the real life examples I'd like to know.... If anyone can describe what I'm talking about that would be great! Even when not on the track, in a small car park like on the video i posted... I can not even imagine scraping my pegs... Am just locked at one very shallow angle that i can't seem to get past. If I knew what kind of signs to look out for i'm sure i'd be willing to crank it over more. I also fear that on the road it may get me into much trouble if i can't make myself lean over more to avoid an unexpected obstacle or coming into a radius tightening corner.

[racer]

Ok thanks for the replies. So no one knows how to desribe the feeling? I'm very, very afraid to lean any more in the rain.. I want to go further... but am afraid of getting to the angle the wheels will just slip away at. Is it noticeable, do the wheels gradually slide out? Does the steering get very light? Does the bike weave about? Does it simply fall down very sharply after getting to that point? These are the real life examples I'd like to know.... If anyone can describe what I'm talking about that would be great! Even when not on the track, in a small car park like on the video i posted... I can not even imagine scraping my pegs... Am just locked at one very shallow angle that i can't seem to get past. If I knew what kind of signs to look out for i'm sure i'd be willing to crank it over more. I also fear that on the road it may get me into much trouble if i can't make myself lean over more to avoid an unexpected obstacle or coming into a radius tightening corner.

 

 

All of the above, dude.

 

Every "feeling" you mentioned is possible. Like Cobie said, it depends on the conditions. Some tracks are quite grippy when wet and some are not. The same conditions exist on the street. Just like learning a track, it is a good idea to learn the roads you regularly ride. Where is the tarmac fresh and grippy, where is it old, worn and slippery? Intersections are the worst as cars and trucks sit and idle at red lights leaking puddles of slip juice onto the road. They can be pretty slippery even when it is dry. So, there isn't any one single answer to your question for wet weather riding. Sometimes you will get lots of clear warning. Sometimes your first clue is the sound of scraping bodywork. That said, you'll need to start trusting your tires, in general, sooner or later. Like you said, if you can't make yourself lean over, you won't be able to turn. Make sure you have fresh rubber and your machine is certified in good working order. Then... just do it.

 

One note about rain riding: the most dangerous time is when it first starts to rain and the oils and grime in the road float to the surface. In a hard rain, they will be washed away after a short time. In a light rain, they might not go anywhere. So, the most slippery time is just after it begins to rain. And a hard rain is better than a light rain for traction. (Sorta counter-intuitive.) In any case, the best thing you can do is to have fresh rubber with deep grooves for standing water.

 

A last word of advice: be smooth in rain. Like a car in the snow. Nothing sudden. Gradually increase lean angle to find the limit and mind the rules of throttle control and weight balance. Don't overload front or rear. No hard gas. Be easy on the brakes. Use a little rear brake in the rain. Be mild and be smooth.

 

And get a copy of Twist of the Wrist if you don't have one. It will save your life.

 

Good luck,

r

[chopperbill]

Ok thanks for the replies. So no one knows how to desribe the feeling? I'm very, very afraid to lean any more in the rain.. I want to go further... but am afraid of getting to the angle the wheels will just slip away at. Is it noticeable, do the wheels gradually slide out? Does the steering get very light? Does the bike weave about? Does it simply fall down very sharply after getting to that point? These are the real life examples I'd like to know.... If anyone can describe what I'm talking about that would be great! Even when not on the track, in a small car park like on the video i posted... I can not even imagine scraping my pegs... Am just locked at one very shallow angle that i can't seem to get past. If I knew what kind of signs to look out for i'm sure i'd be willing to crank it over more. I also fear that on the road it may get me into much trouble if i can't make myself lean over more to avoid an unexpected obstacle or coming into a radius tightening corner.

 

 

All of the above, dude.

 

Every "feeling" you mentioned is possible. Like Cobie said, it depends on the conditions. Some tracks are quite grippy when wet and some are not. The same conditions exist on the street. Just like learning a track, it is a good idea to learn the roads you regularly ride. Where is the tarmac fresh and grippy, where is it old, worn and slippery? Intersections are the worst as cars and trucks sit and idle at red lights leaking puddles of slip juice onto the road. They can be pretty slippery even when it is dry. So, there isn't any one single answer to your question for wet weather riding. Sometimes you will get lots of clear warning. Sometimes your first clue is the sound of scraping bodywork. That said, you'll need to start trusting your tires, in general, sooner or later. Like you said, if you can't make yourself lean over, you won't be able to turn. Make sure you have fresh rubber and your machine is certified in good working order. Then... just do it.

 

One note about rain riding: the most dangerous time is when it first starts to rain and the oils and grime in the road float to the surface. In a hard rain, they will be washed away after a short time. In a light rain, they might not go anywhere. So, the most slippery time is just after it begins to rain. And a hard rain is better than a light rain for traction. (Sorta counter-intuitive.) In any case, the best thing you can do is to have fresh rubber with deep grooves for standing water.

 

A last word of advice: be smooth in rain. Like a car in the snow. Nothing sudden. Gradually increase lean angle to find the limit and mind the rules of throttle control and weight balance. Don't overload front or rear. No hard gas. Be easy on the brakes. Use a little rear brake in the rain. Be mild and be smooth.

 

And get a copy of Twist of the Wrist if you don't have one. It will save your life.

 

Good luck,

r

 

 

All of the above and avoid painted surfaces. That includes the street and the track, such as cross walks and center lines and stay off the paint in the corners of the track.

[stuman]

Riding in the rain certainly presents it's own set of challenges. Like Cobie said the surface plays a big part in how far you can lean it over or how how fast you can go or how hard you can brake or how quick you can turn before you loose traction.

 

I think the thing to remember when searching for the limit of traction (wet or dry) is to approach the limit gradually. You need to slowly and progressively work toward more lean angle or harder acceleration, or ...

 

If you blow past the limit of traction, the slide you get will be more abrupt and you stand a much better chance of falling down.

 

If you sneak up on the limit, the slide you get might not be as big and you stand a better chance of controlling it.

 

 

 

 

Sorry, I know that doesn't really answer your question. I have a hard time putting into words the sensation you get when you're about to loose traction (wet or dry).

[Cobie Fair]

Riding in the rain certainly presents it's own set of challenges. Like Cobie said the surface plays a big part in how far you can lean it over or how how fast you can go or how hard you can brake or how quick you can turn before you loose traction.

 

I think the thing to remember when searching for the limit of traction (wet or dry) is to approach the limit gradually. You need to slowly and progressively work toward more lean angle or harder acceleration, or ...

 

If you blow past the limit of traction, the slide you get will be more abrupt and you stand a much better chance of falling down.

 

If you sneak up on the limit, the slide you get might not be as big and you stand a better chance of controlling it.

 

 

 

 

Sorry, I know that doesn't really answer your question. I have a hard time putting into words the sensation you get when you're about to loose traction (wet or dry).

 

I know I've mentioned it elsewhere, but a relevant article is the one on "Bands of Traction" here in the forum.