When Do You Release The Brake?

[stuman]

OK, I'm not trying to stir up another trail braking discussion here

 

Let's take the very straight forward example of a 90 degree constant radius corner that is pretty much flat (no camber positive or negative). This corner is preceded by a long straight and followed by a straight as well. I'm sure there is a corner sorta like this on most of the tracks we all ride. If not exactly like is picture a corner that is as close to the preceding description as you can get. My local examples would be turn 1 at Willow Springs (Although it has some camber) or turn 1 or the last turn at Buttonwillow. Turn one at Sears is pretty close as is turn 10 at The Streets of Willow.

 

 

OK so in this type of corner, when do you release the brake?

 

Well before the corner?

At the turn point?

Just after the turn point?

At the Apex?

???????

 

I'm asking you to think about a corner like this that you ride on a somewhat regular basis and describe what you actually do now. I'm not asking a theoretical question about what is the best way to brake for this corner. I want to know what you do today.

 

Do you think that the way you release the brake now is best?

 

Why or why not?

[acebobby]

OK, I'm not trying to stir up another trail braking discussion here

 

Let's take the very straight forward example of a 90 degree constant radius corner that is pretty much flat (no camber positive or negative). This corner is preceded by a long straight and followed by a straight as well. I'm sure there is a corner sorta like this on most of the tracks we all ride. If not exactly like is picture a corner that is as close to the preceding description as you can get. My local examples would be turn 1 at Willow Springs (Although it has some camber) or turn 1 or the last turn at Buttonwillow. Turn one at Sears is pretty close as is turn 10 at The Streets of Willow.

 

 

OK so in this type of corner, when do you release the brake?

 

Well before the corner?

At the turn point?

Just after the turn point?

At the Apex?

???????

 

I'm asking you to think about a corner like this that you ride on a somewhat regular basis and describe what you actually do now. I'm not asking a theoretical question about what is the best way to brake for this corner. I want to know what you do today.

 

Do you think that the way you release the brake now is best?

 

Why or why not?

 

 

For the kind of corner you described I think I would try to end my braking just at my chosen turn point! For a long time I had a problem with turns at the end of straights as I always tended to brake to hard and be off the brakes too early and end up coasting towards my turn point, it used to drive me nuts. I think that since the corner you described goes onto another straight I would finish braking at the turn point, quick turn, then be on the gas asap to get max drive up the next straight.

I dont know if this way is best but it is the way I feel most comfortable with and it is definately better than the way I used to do it.

[Jaybird180]

This is an excellent Question!

 

In practice, I brake until the Apex, however I am working on getting my braking done while vertical. I would imagine that this would be better to do, but......

Brakes are stronger than engine right? So it should be better to brake until apex. (that's my story and I'm sticking to it)

[chopperbill]

OK, I'm not trying to stir up another trail braking discussion here

 

Let's take the very straight forward example of a 90 degree constant radius corner that is pretty much flat (no camber positive or negative). This corner is preceded by a long straight and followed by a straight as well. I'm sure there is a corner sorta like this on most of the tracks we all ride. If not exactly like is picture a corner that is as close to the preceding description as you can get. My local examples would be turn 1 at Willow Springs (Although it has some camber) or turn 1 or the last turn at Buttonwillow. Turn one at Sears is pretty close as is turn 10 at The Streets of Willow.

 

 

OK so in this type of corner, when do you release the brake?

 

Well before the corner?

At the turn point?

Just after the turn point?

At the Apex?

???????

 

I'm asking you to think about a corner like this that you ride on a somewhat regular basis and describe what you actually do now. I'm not asking a theoretical question about what is the best way to brake for this corner. I want to know what you do today.

 

Do you think that the way you release the brake now is best?

 

Why or why not?

 

 

OK, Turn one at Sears,(AMA turn 1, yes?): Come around turn 11 as tight as possible,(that means slow) to get a good drive early, tuck in and haul a.. to the start/finish line, sit up and brake hard....as soon as I see the paint at the apex I release the brakes, seam to me there is a milasecond before I turn in. Then I point the bike for the painted ripple strip and open it up. It happens very quickly.

[hubbard_28]

On a corner like that I will, as a standard, get off the brakes just before I start to turn in. Not to start another discussion on when we start on the throttle, but I am starting to get my maintenance throttle while I'm dipping it in. If I'm passing going into the corner, I might use light brake slightly into my lean.

[Cobie Fair]

On a corner like that I will, as a standard, get off the brakes just before I start to turn in. Not to start another discussion on when we start on the throttle, but I am starting to get my maintenance throttle while I'm dipping it in. If I'm passing going into the corner, I might use light brake slightly into my lean.

 

OK, I'm curious to what you mean by "maintenance throttle?"

[Jaybird180]

On a corner like that I will, as a standard, get off the brakes just before I start to turn in. Not to start another discussion on when we start on the throttle, but I am starting to get my maintenance throttle while I'm dipping it in. If I'm passing going into the corner, I might use light brake slightly into my lean.

 

OK, I'm curious to what you mean by "maintenance throttle?"

http://pnwriders.com/general-discussion/41...e-throttle.html

[Cobie Fair]

On a corner like that I will, as a standard, get off the brakes just before I start to turn in. Not to start another discussion on when we start on the throttle, but I am starting to get my maintenance throttle while I'm dipping it in. If I'm passing going into the corner, I might use light brake slightly into my lean.

 

OK, I'm curious to what you mean by "maintenance throttle?"

http://pnwriders.com/general-discussion/41...e-throttle.html

 

J/bird and I have gone around on this one a bit, but my understanding is the term originated with cars, and I want to see if any really good car guys use that.

 

What's your take on it Hubbard?

 

Having the throttle on when the bike is turn, it can create some problems, and one of them is the bike runs too wide after turn in, and more lean angle is needed (than should be used) to bring it back in line.

[hubbard_28]

On a corner like that I will, as a standard, get off the brakes just before I start to turn in. Not to start another discussion on when we start on the throttle, but I am starting to get my maintenance throttle while I'm dipping it in. If I'm passing going into the corner, I might use light brake slightly into my lean.

 

OK, I'm curious to what you mean by "maintenance throttle?"

http://pnwriders.com/general-discussion/41...e-throttle.html

 

J/bird and I have gone around on this one a bit, but my understanding is the term originated with cars, and I want to see if any really good car guys use that.

 

What's your take on it Hubbard?

 

Having the throttle on when the bike is turn, it can create some problems, and one of them is the bike runs too wide after turn in, and more lean angle is needed (than should be used) to bring it back in line.

I was sort of in on this discussion. Just before I dip the bike (I think) I am at the speed I want to be at. I apply enough throttle to keep me at that speed going to the apex. I hope this is a more accurate description. We had a hard time explaining it last time. I have tried it on the street, and this Sunday will on the track, and am not comfortable with the other way. I'm going down for half the day into a slower group to work on this (as well as a couple other things).

[Cobie Fair]

On a corner like that I will, as a standard, get off the brakes just before I start to turn in. Not to start another discussion on when we start on the throttle, but I am starting to get my maintenance throttle while I'm dipping it in. If I'm passing going into the corner, I might use light brake slightly into my lean.

 

OK, I'm curious to what you mean by "maintenance throttle?"

http://pnwriders.com/general-discussion/41...e-throttle.html

 

J/bird and I have gone around on this one a bit, but my understanding is the term originated with cars, and I want to see if any really good car guys use that.

 

What's your take on it Hubbard?

 

Having the throttle on when the bike is turn, it can create some problems, and one of them is the bike runs too wide after turn in, and more lean angle is needed (than should be used) to bring it back in line.

I was sort of in on this discussion. Just before I dip the bike (I think) I am at the speed I want to be at. I apply enough throttle to keep me at that speed going to the apex. I hope this is a more accurate description. We had a hard time explaining it last time. I have tried it on the street, and this Sunday will on the track, and am not comfortable with the other way. I'm going down for half the day into a slower group to work on this (as well as a couple other things).

 

OK, so if you roll the throttle on before you turn it or while you are turning it, what happens to the line the bike takes--does it want to hold the line, or will the bike run wider after turn in?

 

CF

[Jaybird180]

On a corner like that I will, as a standard, get off the brakes just before I start to turn in. Not to start another discussion on when we start on the throttle, but I am starting to get my maintenance throttle while I'm dipping it in. If I'm passing going into the corner, I might use light brake slightly into my lean.

 

OK, I'm curious to what you mean by "maintenance throttle?"

http://pnwriders.com/general-discussion/41...e-throttle.html

 

J/bird and I have gone around on this one a bit, but my understanding is the term originated with cars, and I want to see if any really good car guys use that.

 

What's your take on it Hubbard?

 

Having the throttle on when the bike is turn, it can create some problems, and one of them is the bike runs too wide after turn in, and more lean angle is needed (than should be used) to bring it back in line.

I was sort of in on this discussion. Just before I dip the bike (I think) I am at the speed I want to be at. I apply enough throttle to keep me at that speed going to the apex. I hope this is a more accurate description. We had a hard time explaining it last time. I have tried it on the street, and this Sunday will on the track, and am not comfortable with the other way. I'm going down for half the day into a slower group to work on this (as well as a couple other things).

 

OK, so if you roll the throttle on before you turn it or while you are turning it, what happens to the line the bike takes--does it want to hold the line, or will the bike run wider after turn in?

 

CF

I think I have a way to better explain our 'going round' on this. Instead of rolling on the throttle, we just "crack open" the throttle. (smile)

[hubbard_28]

On a corner like that I will, as a standard, get off the brakes just before I start to turn in. Not to start another discussion on when we start on the throttle, but I am starting to get my maintenance throttle while I'm dipping it in. If I'm passing going into the corner, I might use light brake slightly into my lean.

 

OK, I'm curious to what you mean by "maintenance throttle?"

http://pnwriders.com/general-discussion/41...e-throttle.html

 

J/bird and I have gone around on this one a bit, but my understanding is the term originated with cars, and I want to see if any really good car guys use that.

 

What's your take on it Hubbard?

 

Having the throttle on when the bike is turn, it can create some problems, and one of them is the bike runs too wide after turn in, and more lean angle is needed (than should be used) to bring it back in line.

I was sort of in on this discussion. Just before I dip the bike (I think) I am at the speed I want to be at. I apply enough throttle to keep me at that speed going to the apex. I hope this is a more accurate description. We had a hard time explaining it last time. I have tried it on the street, and this Sunday will on the track, and am not comfortable with the other way. I'm going down for half the day into a slower group to work on this (as well as a couple other things).

 

OK, so if you roll the throttle on before you turn it or while you are turning it, what happens to the line the bike takes--does it want to hold the line, or will the bike run wider after turn in?

 

CF

I think I have a way to better explain our 'going round' on this. Instead of rolling on the throttle, we just "crack open" the throttle. (smile)

My admittance to my wrongness is on the "newbie with a question" post that we had this long discussion about previously.

[briang467]

I'll answer Stuman's question first:

 

Right now, on turn 10 at SOW, I release the brake right before I turn in. Then I turn and I'm on the throttle.

 

I think I can do better.

If I can coordinate the brake release with the throttle going on, I can be smoother. I can start coming off the brake before the turn in point, but it will be a slow release. Then at turn in, I'm still lightly on the brake when I make the steering input. Then, as soon as the steering input is made, I can finish the release of the brake as I'm rolling on. This should keep my suspension up-and-down motion as smooth as possible. Smoother than if I release (causing the suspension to pop up -the amount of "pop" being determined by how quickly I release the brake lever) before the turn then turn in and get on it.

 

Now to Cobie's q:

I don't think "maintenance" throttle prior to the turn is a good idea. He's already pointing out the problem of running wide if you start the roll on before the turn. Also, it would cause the suspension to lift, which would increase the trail and therefore the amount of force you need to apply to get the bike turned. Likely, you'll turn in slower and have to be turning longer to get on the line you wanted. If you're still releasing the brake at this point, your suspension will be compressed and you'll need less force to turn in, your turn in will be faster, and you should, with practice, be able to get on the chosen line sooner.

[Jaybird180]

Now to Cobie's q:

... if you start the roll on before the turn. Also, it would cause the suspension to lift, which would increase the trail and therefore the amount of force you need to apply to get the bike turned

What happened to the idea that the rear suspension rises when "on the gas"? Won't this counteract the rising of the front end?

[Kevin Kane]

To the specific question of when do you release the brakes; at my last track event this year (Sears Point), my speed increased as the day progressed and I found that I braked until I was right at my turn point. I would push on the inside bar at the same moment I released the brake lever.

 

Kevin

[Cobie Fair]

Now to Cobie's q:

... if you start the roll on before the turn. Also, it would cause the suspension to lift, which would increase the trail and therefore the amount of force you need to apply to get the bike turned

What happened to the idea that the rear suspension rises when "on the gas"? Won't this counteract the rising of the front end?

 

Both the front and the rear go up when on the gas, and the opposite when off the gas.

[Jaybird180]

Now to Cobie's q:

... if you start the roll on before the turn. Also, it would cause the suspension to lift, which would increase the trail and therefore the amount of force you need to apply to get the bike turned

What happened to the idea that the rear suspension rises when "on the gas"? Won't this counteract the rising of the front end?

 

Both the front and the rear go up when on the gas, and the opposite when off the gas.

My point exactly. So there should be no change in geometry (correct?)

[Cobie Fair]

 

Both the front and the rear go up when on the gas, and the opposite when off the gas.

My point exactly. So there should be no change in geometry (correct?)

 

But if opening the throttle too soon, will that bring the front end up, then when the cornering load is applied, won't it go back down?

 

C

[Jaybird180]

But if opening the throttle too soon, will that bring the front end up, then when the cornering load is applied, won't it go back down?

 

C

Yes it will.

 

So if that's the case, then it's not very efficient for the rider to continue to make changes to the suspension like that. Wouldn't it then make sense to trail brake so as to maintain rake angles while turning in? (But we already know the answer to that question from the trail braking thread)

 

Okay...this thread was just to mess with our heads, right??? (sarcastic)

[stuman]

Yes, I like messing with people's heads

 

What if you were to release the brake as you turned the bike ?

 

What I mean is, when you reached your desired lean angle the brake is completely released and you could crack on the gas. But your still on the brake when you turn in.

 

 

 

Would this be considered trail braking? Or something different.

[Jaybird180]

Yes, I like messing with people's heads

 

What if you were to release the brake as you turned the bike ?

 

What I mean is, when you reached your desired lean angle the brake is completely released and you could crack on the gas. But your still on the brake when you turn in.

 

 

 

Would this be considered trail braking? Or something different.

Since the bike resists turning-in under braking, releasing the brakes once reaching max lean would be pointless in this instance. If turn-in is lazy then it would reduce the chance of washing out the front. If you desired a quick turn-in.....faghettaboutit

 

Stu!!!!!!!

 

Sorry Dude. I used up all my brain juice at work today. Anyone else wanna take a stab?

[acebobby]

Yes, I like messing with people's heads

 

What if you were to release the brake as you turned the bike ?

 

What I mean is, when you reached your desired lean angle the brake is completely released and you could crack on the gas. But your still on the brake when you turn in.

 

 

 

Would this be considered trail braking? Or something different.

 

 

do you mean as in a quick turn motion, like still be on the brake or to be gradually releasing it when you give the inside bar a firm push, is that possible without losing the front? scary!

I guess even if the front slid a little you would catch it when you cracked open the throttle, is this correct?

[hubbard_28]

I'm doing another trackday this weekend, and am planning on really focusing on this. I'm going to work on just coming off the brakes when I'm dipping the bike in. Last Sunday I really tried dumping the bike over, and learned how the rumble strips feel at full lean. It was scary, but awesome that I could get it over so quickly. That means I can carry more speed into the corners.

[Jaybird180]

do you mean as in a quick turn motion, like still be on the brake or to be gradually releasing it when you give the inside bar a firm push, is that possible without losing the front? scary!

I guess even if the front slid a little you would catch it when you cracked open the throttle, is this correct?

I've experienced the front push before also. I don't know what I did to recover..it happened so fast. The tire just grabbed and the bike turned RIGHT NOW. I was going down the next straight before my brain processed 'what just happened'. So I'm interested in knowing also what is the "correct" action.

[Cobie Fair]

What if we got a definition of trail braking up here, I'll take a stab:

 

Action of releasing the brake gradiently.

 

Some might want to add, "after turning the bike in" but what if we used the above to start with.