ikonoklass Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Someone over at Advrider.com called countersteering with one arm "passive" countersteering and claimed that steering with both arms is "active" counter steering. Is there a reason this technique isn't taught? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hubbard_28 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 That doesn't really make sense, with the "active" and "passive" designation. I ignore my outside hand, and just lean my outside arm on the tank, as is promoted in cornering classes. All my adjustment are made with my inside hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuman Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 It is easier to teach people to just push. It is less to think about and it helps you stay loose on the bars with the hand your not using to turn. Many people have a tendency to fight one hand with the other, so it is better to teach riders to push only and just relax the other arms so they don't fight it. I tend to push and pull, using both hands to steer, especially in high speed corners where more force is required to steer the bike. I don't get the "active" vs "passive" terms, that doesn't make sense to me. They are both active ways of steering a bike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybird180 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Agreed. Active and passive are confusing use of words misapplied. Why not call it something like: half-steer vs full steer? (LOL) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikonoklass Posted May 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 I agree that the "active" vs. "passive" designations are complete rubbish. But semantics aside, I sometimes feel that steering with both hands--at least for me--helps me avoid fighting between hands more than just using the inside hand. If that's truly the case, is there any other reason not to do it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuman Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 I can't think of any reason not to use both hands to steer with other then the one already mentioned. If you use both hands to steer the bike but can still relax after you get the bike turned then I can't think of any reason why you shoudln't do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acebobby Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 It is easier to teach people to just push. It is less to think about and it helps you stay loose on the bars with the hand your not using to turn. Many people have a tendency to fight one hand with the other, so it is better to teach riders to push only and just relax the other arms so they don't fight it. I tend to push and pull, using both hands to steer, especially in high speed corners where more force is required to steer the bike. I don't get the "active" vs "passive" terms, that doesn't make sense to me. They are both active ways of steering a bike. I've heard the passive term used to describe people that say they dont counter steer their bikes, but steer by leaning, which we all know is rubbish, they are counter steering without realising it and the active term to describe people like ourselfs that know and are intentionally counter steering our bikes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acebobby Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 I can't think of any reason not to use both hands to steer with other then the one already mentioned. If you use both hands to steer the bike but can still relax after you get the bike turned then I can't think of any reason why you shoudln't do that. I tried steering with both hands today and what a difference in turning speed I can achieve, wow thats +1 on the steering rate turn scale! It did cause me a few minor problems though, firstly I did seem to struggle a bit with relaxing once I had reached my lean angle, so I had to concentrate on that. I also had a problem with my precision, usually I can put the bike exactly where I want it but I seemed to be going to the inside of where I wanted to go for some reason, I must have been turning to early or not carrying enough entry speed! For the record I usually only push the inside bar to c/steer but will be working on using both hands from now on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acebobby Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 Today I noticed a slight issue when steering with both hands that does not appear to happen when I only push the bar! I will use a right hand turn as an example to help me find a simple way of putting this into words! When I reach my chosen turn point, I make the steering input and the bike tends to give a slight weave to the left before flicking over to the right, when I do it by only pushing the bar it seems to fall more smoothly to the right without the slight weave! Am I doing something wrong here to cause this to happen? thanks B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybird180 Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 Today I noticed a slight issue when steering with both hands that does not appear to happen when I only push the bar! I will use a right hand turn as an example to help me find a simple way of putting this into words! When I reach my chosen turn point, I make the steering input and the bike tends to give a slight weave to the left before flicking over to the right, when I do it by only pushing the bar it seems to fall more smoothly to the right without the slight weave! Am I doing something wrong here to cause this to happen? thanks B Have someone watch you from behind to verify your sensations. The inner ear can play tricks on you sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
documented Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 Today I noticed a slight issue when steering with both hands that does not appear to happen when I only push the bar! I will use a right hand turn as an example to help me find a simple way of putting this into words! When I reach my chosen turn point, I make the steering input and the bike tends to give a slight weave to the left before flicking over to the right, when I do it by only pushing the bar it seems to fall more smoothly to the right without the slight weave! Am I doing something wrong here to cause this to happen? thanks B Hi - what you're describing is quite "correct" though isn't it? I mean correct countersteering - whether you are using one hand OR both. During the initial push (say, right hand = wheel to the left) - then the wheel + bike WILL initially & momentarily turn to the left, which makes the bike "fall" to the right which gives you your RHS turning radius. There are a number of slo-mo videos showing just this effect on google video, youtube, metacafe, etc - such as this one which shows it very clearly - but it is so quick that you can really only see it in slow motion. http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1360901// hope it helps. all the best. ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acebobby Posted May 20, 2009 Report Share Posted May 20, 2009 Today I noticed a slight issue when steering with both hands that does not appear to happen when I only push the bar! I will use a right hand turn as an example to help me find a simple way of putting this into words! When I reach my chosen turn point, I make the steering input and the bike tends to give a slight weave to the left before flicking over to the right, when I do it by only pushing the bar it seems to fall more smoothly to the right without the slight weave! Am I doing something wrong here to cause this to happen? thanks B Hi - what you're describing is quite "correct" though isn't it? I mean correct countersteering - whether you are using one hand OR both. During the initial push (say, right hand = wheel to the left) - then the wheel + bike WILL initially & momentarily turn to the left, which makes the bike "fall" to the right which gives you your RHS turning radius. There are a number of slo-mo videos showing just this effect on google video, youtube, metacafe, etc - such as this one which shows it very clearly - but it is so quick that you can really only see it in slow motion. http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1360901// hope it helps. all the best. ian Thats a good little video describing the manoeuvre, but the issue I am having is that by using only one hand to push the bars I cannot feel the slight weave, the bike just drops in smoothly, but with both hands there is an obvious movement in the wrong direction just before it tips in! As you say it is correct that this happens, but why can I feel it so clearly using both hands? Does this feeling become more obvious the quicker you steer a bike? if so then I am happy with that! Or perhaps I'm holding on too tight using both hands causing me to get too much feedback from the front end! I have a 500 mile bike ride over the next couple of days through some good twisties so I will try to see if I can smooth it out a bit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harnois Posted June 5, 2009 Report Share Posted June 5, 2009 I push and pull with both hands too. It's way faster. The other thing I think I saw in the TOTW books that was helpful for me was being conscious of pushing directly forward and backward on the bars, and not wasting any energy pushing up and down. Getting back on the seat with low shoulders to get your forearms in a more horizontal position helps facilitates this. And then pushing against the footpegs to get leverage against the handlebars, the more I do this the more I realize why a lot of riders use rearsets. I do think the faster you do the lean angle change the more you will notice the front wheel track out the opposite side. I'll continue with your right hand turn example.... When you lean in slowly, the bike starts curving towards the right before you've even completed the countersteer, plus your eyeballs are moving right as you lean right, so it is easy to get the impression that you are leaning the bike over by rotating it around the point where the tires touch the ground. But when the transition is fast you can really see how the bike actually rotates around it's center of gravity, with the tires going left and your eyeballs going right. If you set up for the turn too close to the outside (left) edge, it's quite possible to countersteer really hard and put the tires in the grass off the left side of the track. This can be useful though for things alike avoiding road kill. If it's too late to actually curve around the obstacle, I can just counter steer to move my tires around the object and then countersteer the other way afterwards to recover my original line and stay on the road. And on VIR north course turn 5 and 6, a long righthander leading into a little quick left-right-left snaky section that you can kind of go straight through, while turning right entering the snake my tires are headed for the grass off the left side of the track, but making the quick transition from full right lean to some left lean moves the tires to the right a few feet and keeps them on the road while my eyeballs pass over the grass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harnois Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 "...while turning right entering the snake my tires are headed for the grass off the left side of the track, but making the quick transition from full right lean to some left lean moves the tires to the right a few feet and keeps them on the road while my eyeballs pass over the grass." In this video starting at about 09.09, as they are showing a replay from the helicopter view leading up to a rather disturbing crash, is a good example of this. http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/nw200/ The guy in the black leather, after just making a pass in the braking zone and overshooting the turn a bit, he's leaned left and his tires are headed for the curb... until he makes the quick flick over to a right lean, which moves his tires his tires to the left and around the curb. The overhead view makes it easy to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Today I noticed a slight issue when steering with both hands that does not appear to happen when I only push the bar! I will use a right hand turn as an example to help me find a simple way of putting this into words! When I reach my chosen turn point, I make the steering input and the bike tends to give a slight weave to the left before flicking over to the right, when I do it by only pushing the bar it seems to fall more smoothly to the right without the slight weave! Am I doing something wrong here to cause this to happen? thanks I had a similar problem a few years back. It took me quite some time to figure it out. Basically, what was happening is that I was I was unconsciously introducing a steering input with my outside arm. When I used my outside arm as well as the inside arm for steering inputs I wouldn't get my body position in the correct place for the corner that worked for me. What ended up happening is that I turned and then adjusted which caused an additional bar input. If you need more grunt for your turning input, maybe concentrating on anchoring your outside foot and using that to stabilize you for a more aggressive input will get you the turning speed you want without the wobble. (And, no, I'm not talking about "peg weighting". I'm talking about "peg pushing.") Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kawdude636 Posted June 15, 2009 Report Share Posted June 15, 2009 I usually just use my inside hand for push/pull, way faster using both, but issues of battle between the two sometimes arise, keep forearms parallel to ground, remember to relax... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybird180 Posted June 15, 2009 Report Share Posted June 15, 2009 I usually just use my inside hand for push/pull, way faster using both, but issues of battle between the two sometimes arise, keep forearms parallel to ground, remember to relax... A key for when one is riding an unfamiliar bike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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