acebobby Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 I try and ride my first lap or two at a new track without brakes or at worst very light brakes and with minimal gear changes (if I can get by with say 4th, I'll use that and just wind it on and off like a scooter). No leaning off typically, and nothing like knee down. I would say this would be about my 50% speed and I use this as my baseline. Over the next few laps I'll start to understand where the track goes, and over the period of the next session (if on a trackday), I'll build upto probably 90% speed in this session and thats essentially my baseline for refinement of things from there leveraging the drills. If I have some drill aspect to work on, (and I normally do), I'll almost always try and work on no gears (staying high) and use as little brakes as I can get away with. Just helps me concentrate on it so much better. Bullet It's nice to know that even a coach has such a conservative approach towards a new track. Do you do this the day before the students arrive? Thanks, Andy No, typically it's on a school day, I'll start to do this on the sighting laps whilst the students are doing there own. Once the introductions are done for my first round of students, I almost always have 2-3 laps of a track anyway (regardless of whether I've been before), to get myself re-acuqainted with the bike, the track, the surface, just to get myself warmed up anyway. As this session has the student practising with no brakes, I do the same, and it helps me get my eye in so to speak, as it could have been many weeks since I last rode a bike. Is all simple stuff eh? Bullet This is interesting stuff, even though I found the benefits of the no brakes drill at the school, its not really something I have done on a trackday, got a trackday booked for tomorrow so will begin the day with no brakes and see how I progress! As always I have a few level 1 drills in mind that I want to work on in preparation for my levels 2 and 3 in 2 weeks time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hubbard_28 Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 If I'm riding a familiar track, I don't really worry about cutting down to any certain percentage. During my siting laps I'm concerned with warming up the tires with acceleration and braking (because I'm going out as soon as the siting laps are done) and looking for "temporary" RP's. I know it's frowned upon, but if there is something on the track that wasn't there, and possibly won't be there the next time I ride that track, I will still use it as an RP for that day. I also look around at my RP's and am riding my line to refamiliarize myself. I also have the bad habit of having my hands on the brakes even when I'm going into a turn that I don't even need them on. I'll usually even tap them. I probably would benefit more than most on this forum by learning the no brakes drill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asinn0007 Posted June 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 Bullet, thanks for all your hel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 Bullet, thanks for all your hel. No problem mate, you're more than welcome. Hope it's proving useful for your understanding. Bullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 If I'm riding a familiar track, I don't really worry about cutting down to any certain percentage. During my siting laps I'm concerned with warming up the tires with acceleration and braking (because I'm going out as soon as the siting laps are done) and looking for "temporary" RP's. I know it's frowned upon, but if there is something on the track that wasn't there, and possibly won't be there the next time I ride that track, I will still use it as an RP for that day. I also look around at my RP's and am riding my line to refamiliarize myself.I also have the bad habit of having my hands on the brakes even when I'm going into a turn that I don't even need them on. I'll usually even tap them. I probably would benefit more than most on this forum by learning the no brakes drill. Thats another great piece of advice there my friend. Thats in essence what I'm doing really also, like you say it's not a concious choiec per say to go at 50%, just happens to be about how quick it is. 'm wth you on the RP, though only if there is nothing more permament to use, and sometimes there isn't. The no brakes thing is really great for planning your lines, approach speed etc anyway, and I think we all benefit from having it as a starter for 10 every track we goto. I think as long as you're not dragging the brakes or clutch, it's not a problem. Whatever your comfy and works for you I say. Bullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotfoot Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 It seems to me that 70% is a somewhat artificial number used to help someone understand that you need to have something in reserve for emergencies when riding on the street. If that "70%" number doesn't have meaning to you, maybe it would be clearer to just go back to the basic idea behind it - could you stop or make a BIG steering correction, calmly, in an emergency, at the pace you are riding? If I was riding hard enough to make my tires squirm in a blind turn, I can assure you that I would not be prepared to make a big steering correction to avoid a car that suddenly appears on the wrong side of the road. Nor would I be comfortable taking those squirming tires over a patch of sand or gravel that I didn't see in the road. Maybe you could try using that as your gauge - do you have enough skills/traction/attention/etc left over to deal with a surprise road hazard? Hi Hotfoot, Wow! Your example of the blind curve and oncoming cage is the most extreme version of a biker's nightmare. Truth is, there could be zero reaction time in that case. That image sure caught my attention! While I was waiting for an objective definition of 70%, and apparently there isn't one, your description is clear and concise from two different viewpoints: 1) traction and 2) reaction time. In order to continue to ride a motorcycle at all, I'll need to interpret your guidelines a little loosely: "While in a curve, I should be able to make a big steering correction to the inside of the turn and/or come to a full stop within my sight/reaction distance for: "a) a highly visible, stationary hazard, such as a stopped vehicle, or a fallen tree, -AND- " a less visible road hazard such as a patch of dirt, sand, water, oil, or drywall screws." The beauty of what you suggest is that it by implication takes into account myriad variables including my physical and mental condition, bike's condition, road surface, weather, tires, etc. In addition, at my current skill level, it can be distilled into one easy to recall mantra, "70%=tires solidly planted and no hanging off!" Thanks to everyone who contributed to the illumination of this issue for me. Thanks, Hotfoot, for your elegant solution which especially resonates for me. Sincerely, Andy Andy, I'm really glad that was helpful for you, it's a nice feeling to make a suggestion, and then learn that it was useful, so thank you for letting me know! Sorry if my example was a bit extreme. The good news is that with good basics and enough confidence to react without panic, it's possible to make some really incredible avoidance moves when you need them; I've been amazed by what my bike can do, as long as I work with it and not against it. As long as I'm riding within my comfort zone, I can stay calm and react quickly and correctly. Your interpretation sounds very sensible for street riding, and per Cobie's question, I bring a similar idea to the track - my version would be something like this: 1) on a new track, I will ride at a speed that will allow me to stay well in control even if the turn does something different than I thought it was going to - like tightening up or going off-camber 2) I will approach other riders at a speed that will allow me to make a correction if someone makes an erratic move (especially if I am riding in the "intermediate group" ) 3) I will ride smoothly and correctly when my tires are cold, and at a pace where I can handle a small slide if it occurs 4) whenever I am practicing something or trying to figure something out, I will ride at a pace that is very comfortable for me, so I have some attention left over for learning, and can try new things without triggering SRs This is a fun discussion, I'm glad you got it started! Hotfoot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Kane Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 It seems to me that 70% is a somewhat artificial number used to help someone understand that you need to have something in reserve for emergencies when riding on the street. If that "70%" number doesn't have meaning to you, maybe it would be clearer to just go back to the basic idea behind it - could you stop or make a BIG steering correction, calmly, in an emergency, at the pace you are riding? If I was riding hard enough to make my tires squirm in a blind turn, I can assure you that I would not be prepared to make a big steering correction to avoid a car that suddenly appears on the wrong side of the road. Nor would I be comfortable taking those squirming tires over a patch of sand or gravel that I didn't see in the road. Maybe you could try using that as your gauge - do you have enough skills/traction/attention/etc left over to deal with a surprise road hazard? Hi Hotfoot, Wow! Your example of the blind curve and oncoming cage is the most extreme version of a biker's nightmare. Truth is, there could be zero reaction time in that case. That image sure caught my attention! While I was waiting for an objective definition of 70%, and apparently there isn't one, your description is clear and concise from two different viewpoints: 1) traction and 2) reaction time. In order to continue to ride a motorcycle at all, I'll need to interpret your guidelines a little loosely: "While in a curve, I should be able to make a big steering correction to the inside of the turn and/or come to a full stop within my sight/reaction distance for: "a) a highly visible, stationary hazard, such as a stopped vehicle, or a fallen tree, -AND- " a less visible road hazard such as a patch of dirt, sand, water, oil, or drywall screws." The beauty of what you suggest is that it by implication takes into account myriad variables including my physical and mental condition, bike's condition, road surface, weather, tires, etc. In addition, at my current skill level, it can be distilled into one easy to recall mantra, "70%=tires solidly planted and no hanging off!" Thanks to everyone who contributed to the illumination of this issue for me. Thanks, Hotfoot, for your elegant solution which especially resonates for me. Sincerely, Andy Andy, I'm really glad that was helpful for you, it's a nice feeling to make a suggestion, and then learn that it was useful, so thank you for letting me know! Sorry if my example was a bit extreme. The good news is that with good basics and enough confidence to react without panic, it's possible to make some really incredible avoidance moves when you need them; I've been amazed by what my bike can do, as long as I work with it and not against it. As long as I'm riding within my comfort zone, I can stay calm and react quickly and correctly. Your interpretation sounds very sensible for street riding, and per Cobie's question, I bring a similar idea to the track - my version would be something like this: 1) on a new track, I will ride at a speed that will allow me to stay well in control even if the turn does something different than I thought it was going to - like tightening up or going off-camber 2) I will approach other riders at a speed that will allow me to make a correction if someone makes an erratic move (especially if I am riding in the "intermediate group" ) 3) I will ride smoothly and correctly when my tires are cold, and at a pace where I can handle a small slide if it occurs 4) whenever I am practicing something or trying to figure something out, I will ride at a pace that is very comfortable for me, so I have some attention left over for learning, and can try new things without triggering SRs This is a fun discussion, I'm glad you got it started! Hotfoot Hey Hotfoot; Not trying to interrupt a good dialogue, I do want to offer a shout out for your comment on the blind curve truck scenerio. I have a series of quiet country roads I ride for a short while after work and in about thirty five miles I can practice a lot of our CSS training. Last night I am riding downhill into a series of blind curves (like a wider version of the Corkscrew and a tighter version of Rainey Curve at Laguna) and your reference to the truck jumps into my head. Now in the valley I start up the other side in a section that has a short chute followed by a 180 degree blind corner (imagine T2 at Sears Point as a 180) and just as I clear the blind section - I am staring at the back of a lumbering dump truck in the middle of my line. The day before you posted that example I took that same corner with my knee almost on the deck but last night, I dropped back to 70% and was able to manuver around the truck. You never know how anything you post may make a difference to anyone else but this morning, me and my family thank you for that one. Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asinn0007 Posted June 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 Hi Hotfoot, Wow! Your example of the blind curve and oncoming cage is the most extreme version of a biker's nightmare. Truth is, there could be zero reaction time in that case. That image sure caught my attention! While I was waiting for an objective definition of 70%, and apparently there isn't one, your description is clear and concise from two different viewpoints: 1) traction and 2) reaction time.... Sincerely, Andy Andy, I'm really glad that was helpful for you, it's a nice feeling to make a suggestion, and then learn that it was useful, so thank you for letting me know! .... This is a fun discussion, I'm glad you got it started! Hotfoot Hey Hotfoot; Not trying to interrupt a good dialogue, I do want to offer a shout out for your comment on the blind curve truck scenerio. I have a series of quiet country roads I ride for a short while after work and in about thirty five miles I can practice a lot of our CSS training. Last night I am riding downhill into a series of blind curves (like a wider version of the Corkscrew and a tighter version of Rainey Curve at Laguna) and your reference to the truck jumps into my head. Now in the valley I start up the other side in a section that has a short chute followed by a 180 degree blind corner (imagine T2 at Sears Point as a 180) and just as I clear the blind section - I am staring at the back of a lumbering dump truck in the middle of my line. The day before you posted that example I took that same corner with my knee almost on the deck but last night, I dropped back to 70% and was able to maneuver around the truck. You never know how anything you post may make a difference to anyone else but this morning, me and my family thank you for that one. Kevin Hi Everybody, It's great that there is a forum like this where we can learn and improve our skills on the track. But there's nothing like the feeling that you saved someone from serious injury, as in this case Hotfoot's advice helped Kevin out. I know I'm riding with better control after my Level 1 training and this thread. I'd like to take this opportunity to thank Hot Foot and all the instructors at California Superbike School and Keith Code for keeping the school and this forum going in a meaningful way. If their advice has saved your bacon, please let them and us know. Thanks, Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotfoot Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 Hey Hotfoot;Not trying to interrupt a good dialogue, I do want to offer a shout out for your comment on the blind curve truck scenerio. I have a series of quiet country roads I ride for a short while after work and in about thirty five miles I can practice a lot of our CSS training. Last night I am riding downhill into a series of blind curves (like a wider version of the Corkscrew and a tighter version of Rainey Curve at Laguna) and your reference to the truck jumps into my head. Now in the valley I start up the other side in a section that has a short chute followed by a 180 degree blind corner (imagine T2 at Sears Point as a 180) and just as I clear the blind section - I am staring at the back of a lumbering dump truck in the middle of my line. The day before you posted that example I took that same corner with my knee almost on the deck but last night, I dropped back to 70% and was able to manuver around the truck. You never know how anything you post may make a difference to anyone else but this morning, me and my family thank you for that one. Kevin Wow, Kevin! I don't know what to say, other than I'm really glad you're OK, and thanks so much for posting this! Andy's right, it is an amazing feeling to know that this made such a difference for you. Do you suppose this is how the coaches feel, every day? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Kane Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 Hey Hotfoot;Not trying to interrupt a good dialogue, I do want to offer a shout out for your comment on the blind curve truck scenerio. I have a series of quiet country roads I ride for a short while after work and in about thirty five miles I can practice a lot of our CSS training. Last night I am riding downhill into a series of blind curves (like a wider version of the Corkscrew and a tighter version of Rainey Curve at Laguna) and your reference to the truck jumps into my head. Now in the valley I start up the other side in a section that has a short chute followed by a 180 degree blind corner (imagine T2 at Sears Point as a 180) and just as I clear the blind section - I am staring at the back of a lumbering dump truck in the middle of my line. The day before you posted that example I took that same corner with my knee almost on the deck but last night, I dropped back to 70% and was able to manuver around the truck. You never know how anything you post may make a difference to anyone else but this morning, me and my family thank you for that one. Kevin Wow, Kevin! I don't know what to say, other than I'm really glad you're OK, and thanks so much for posting this! Andy's right, it is an amazing feeling to know that this made such a difference for you. Do you suppose this is how the coaches feel, every day? I do believe that is how they must feel...one of the reasons I suspect that all of us would love to be one... Thanks for keeping it real here! Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 Hey Hotfoot;Not trying to interrupt a good dialogue, I do want to offer a shout out for your comment on the blind curve truck scenerio. I have a series of quiet country roads I ride for a short while after work and in about thirty five miles I can practice a lot of our CSS training. Last night I am riding downhill into a series of blind curves (like a wider version of the Corkscrew and a tighter version of Rainey Curve at Laguna) and your reference to the truck jumps into my head. Now in the valley I start up the other side in a section that has a short chute followed by a 180 degree blind corner (imagine T2 at Sears Point as a 180) and just as I clear the blind section - I am staring at the back of a lumbering dump truck in the middle of my line. The day before you posted that example I took that same corner with my knee almost on the deck but last night, I dropped back to 70% and was able to manuver around the truck. You never know how anything you post may make a difference to anyone else but this morning, me and my family thank you for that one. Kevin Wow, Kevin! I don't know what to say, other than I'm really glad you're OK, and thanks so much for posting this! Andy's right, it is an amazing feeling to know that this made such a difference for you. Do you suppose this is how the coaches feel, every day? Glad your ok Kevin man, and it definitely brings home the point about giving yourself enough time and space to react on the road for sure. As for how we feel everyday we do a school (remmeber most of us, (I can only speak for the UK), have day jobs, so we do this coz we love it really). You do get those really excellent days when you can see the improvement in your students, they're absolutely overwhelmed about their improvement and their really happy and have big smiles. Those days make it very special for sure. We do get some tough ones too though! Isn't all glam, rock and roll and bacon butties I can assure ya! Keep smiling guys. Bullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybird180 Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Does 70% mean that you're not alarming SRs? I'm not sure as I would think SRs diminish with improving skill and become less reliable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Does 70% mean that you're not alarming SRs? I'm not sure as I would think SRs diminish with improving skill and become less reliable. Is it only speed that gets your SR's going? If not only that, what other things, and can you control them all? Bullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobie Fair Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Bullet--OK, what's a "bacon buttie?" I'm not going to even try. CF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Bullet--OK, what's a "bacon buttie?" I'm not going to even try. CF Behold, the Bacon buttie awaits... http://homepage.mac.com/theconfuzed1/.Pict...on_sandwich.jpg We start every school day with one. B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobie Fair Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Bullet--OK, what's a "bacon buttie?" I'm not going to even try. CF Behold, the Bacon buttie awaits... http://homepage.mac.com/theconfuzed1/.Pict...on_sandwich.jpg We start every school day with one. B Now we are talking. See, I was thinking girls and plastic surgery. CF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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