Mike3000 Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 Hi all, My question is about late turn in points. I tried this out after reading TOTW 1 and 2 and soon became a big fan. I did level 1 recently and this reinforced what felt naturally to be a good idea. Have a look at this pic of a right hander though and tell me where the X would be drawn on a level 1 day. I can't make sense of where I saw the WSB boys turning. UK readers will recognise the corner straight away. Mike http://www.pbase.com/mike3000/image/114681891 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybird180 Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 TP varies with speed. A slower rider can turn closer to the inside of the corner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobie Fair Posted July 7, 2009 Report Share Posted July 7, 2009 Not 100% sure of your question---is it that the WSB guys look like they are turning in early? One thing to remember is the difference in tires that you can get, and what they are using (and the bike too, but lets start with tires). If the turn entry speed is miles an hour faster than a street bike, then might not be able to ge the turning done in time with a street bike/street tire combination. Make sense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike3000 Posted July 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2009 Hi, Yes that makes sense, but I'd still like to know where you would put the X to compare with what they were doing. Then I'd like to understand why? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobie Fair Posted July 7, 2009 Report Share Posted July 7, 2009 Hi,Yes that makes sense, but I'd still like to know where you would put the X to compare with what they were doing. Then I'd like to understand why? Thanks Haven't looked at a picture and tried to put an X based on that. Camber can have an effect for one. We normally ride the track, then put the points down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike3000 Posted July 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2009 OK I'll tell you what I saw. This was qualifying so it wasn't a defensive line. They started the turn just over half way across the pit exit lane. In between the google earth writing and the white line. Does that make sense to anyone? That looks way to early to me but obviously these guys know what they are doing but I am struggling to understand it. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobie Fair Posted July 7, 2009 Report Share Posted July 7, 2009 OK I'll tell you what I saw. This was qualifying so it wasn't a defensive line.They started the turn just over half way across the pit exit lane. In between the google earth writing and the white line. Does that make sense to anyone? That looks way to early to me but obviously these guys know what they are doing but I am struggling to understand it. Mike Right, seems like that might be early. But with their tires and bikes and entry speed, they might still be getting on the throttle early (cambe can have an effect on this too as I mentioned earlier). Were they able to get on the throttle early after turn in? CF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Hi Mike, This isn't school related, but personal experience related per say having ridden here a lot in the past on track days. I've also crashed in that turn on the brakes trail braking. It definitely depends on entry speed, ability to turn, and suspension etc, etc, but I'll tell you where I'd turn in on a well set up bike on slicks. I would turn in after the white line, probably parallel with the W at the bottom of the picture if that helps. Many riders turn in very early at Donnington and its corner that sharpens as you go through and so if you want good early drive, you need to turn in later rather than early. Hope that helps for what you're looking for. Bullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike3000 Posted July 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Cobie, unfortunately I didn't record it and I can't remember how early they got on the throttle. The MotoGP boys will be there soon so I'll watch more closely. Bullet, I completely agree that you need to turn in later rather than early but the WSB boys were not turning late and thats why I'm confused. My turn in point is similar to yours and it feels like it works. I can't imagine starting the turn as early as they do. I can't really understand how the tyres and bikes can make that much difference. This seems to mean that as I get quicker I will need to turn earlier. That can't be right, does anyone have any ideas? Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybird180 Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Cobie, unfortunately I didn't record it and I can't remember how early they got on the throttle. The MotoGP boys will be there soon so I'll watch more closely. Bullet, I completely agree that you need to turn in later rather than early but the WSB boys were not turning late and thats why I'm confused. My turn in point is similar to yours and it feels like it works. I can't imagine starting the turn as early as they do. I can't really understand how the tyres and bikes can make that much difference. This seems to mean that as I get quicker I will need to turn earlier. That can't be right, does anyone have any ideas? Mike Was this during the race or during qualifying. If it was during the race, I could forsee them using the early turn-in for defense. Those WSB boys take every opportunity to pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Cobie, unfortunately I didn't record it and I can't remember how early they got on the throttle. The MotoGP boys will be there soon so I'll watch more closely. Bullet, I completely agree that you need to turn in later rather than early but the WSB boys were not turning late and thats why I'm confused. My turn in point is similar to yours and it feels like it works. I can't imagine starting the turn as early as they do. I can't really understand how the tyres and bikes can make that much difference. This seems to mean that as I get quicker I will need to turn earlier. That can't be right, does anyone have any ideas? Mike Mike, The other thing you probably need to consider Mike is that a WSB is considerably faster than any road bike, regardless of what you have or ride, they're all in excess of 200bhp at the rear wheel, and will be doing at least 20-30 mph more than say me on my RSV factory at the end of that straight, despite that I can do sub 1:45 laps on it there, so they'll need to initiate the turn much earlier for sure. As long as you're happy with your line, you can get to your ideal line which as we all know is about getting to that throttle and keeping to the rule, you shouldn't neccesarily worry about it. Bullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 I've had a look at the picture again, and i'd actually go for something around the white line would be about right I'd say... I couldn't really tell you in all honesty till I rode it an saw it again, and it's been a while. Bullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike3000 Posted July 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 OK I think I am finally getting it. They're not really turning where I said, they are just moving the bike in a little and then making the actual turn later at about the white line.... The only trouble with that is it doesn't look like a very quick turn. I'm sure I'll work it out properly eventually. Bullet, thanks for the advice. I'll carry on doing what feels right and not worry about it. I'll keep mulling it over though. Anyway heres a clip below Jaybird, this clip is obviously from the race but they were doing pretty much the same in qualifying and Biaggi definitely doesn't need to defend his position. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lp5TCYBsLw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 OK I think I am finally getting it. They're not really turning where I said, they are just moving the bike in a little and then making the actual turn later at about the white line.... The only trouble with that is it doesn't look like a very quick turn. I'm sure I'll work it out properly eventually. Bullet, thanks for the advice. I'll carry on doing what feels right and not worry about it. I'll keep mulling it over though. Anyway heres a clip below Jaybird, this clip is obviously from the race but they were doing pretty much the same in qualifying and Biaggi definitely doesn't need to defend his position. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lp5TCYBsLw If actually look at the clip slowly and repeatedly, you'll see Spies does whats called a set up steer, as in he starts steer in, but doesn't actually quick turn the bike till the white line. He's essentially changed his angle of attack into the turn, so he doesn't have turn the bike as far by the time he needs to turn it all the way. (you'll do attack angles at the end of level 3), but you can clearly see he quick turns it around the white line we mentioned earlier. You can also see he's hard on the brakes too! That lad can ride though for sure though! Bullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bull7419 Posted July 9, 2009 Report Share Posted July 9, 2009 Set up turn: Is this the same thing you would use for a decreasing radius turn to get you a little deeper into the turn before you do your turn in and roll on? I believe Twist II refered to this, but I am not sure what chapter I don't have my book with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted July 9, 2009 Report Share Posted July 9, 2009 Set up turn: Is this the same thing you would use for a decreasing radius turn to get you a little deeper into the turn before you do your turn in and roll on? I believe Twist II refered to this, but I am not sure what chapter I don't have my book with me. Hi Bull, Yeah thats exactly it, though it has many uses, often in racing for getting into a turn early to avoid an overtake amongst others. Keith covers in TW2 on pages 75 and 76, Bullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hubbard_28 Posted July 9, 2009 Report Share Posted July 9, 2009 Given the space between Spies, Biaggi, and whoever is in 3rd, they're probably taking the fastest lines through there. Defensive lines are slower, but keep you from being passed. Neither rider is concerned about being passed, and are trying to get through there as fast as possible, so what they're doing is probably the fastest line that can be taken through this corner. And it looks like Spies is diving in right at the white line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acebobby Posted July 10, 2009 Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 Hi all,My question is about late turn in points. I tried this out after reading TOTW 1 and 2 and soon became a big fan. I did level 1 recently and this reinforced what felt naturally to be a good idea. Have a look at this pic of a right hander though and tell me where the X would be drawn on a level 1 day. I can't make sense of where I saw the WSB boys turning. UK readers will recognise the corner straight away. Mike http://www.pbase.com/mike3000/image/114681891 Just as a note of interest Mike I did a trackday at donington earlier this year and I had watched a few video clips of the motogp guys there just to get an idea of the layout of the track! In that I noticed they were turning in at the white line so I tried that only once to realise that it was way to early a turn point for me, I go a fair bit past the line and take a later turn point that works with the throttle control rule! At the time I thought that maybe the faster guys can turn earlier as long as they get the rear wheel spinning about the apex and at that moment point the bike where they want to go! An interesting point too about attack angles is if you watch Dani Pedrosa in this turn he actually pulls right into the pits exit lane to line up for it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobie Fair Posted July 16, 2009 Report Share Posted July 16, 2009 Just as a note of interest Mike I did a trackday at donington earlier this year and I had watched a few video clips of the motogp guys there just to get an idea of the layout of the track! In that I noticed they were turning in at the white line so I tried that only once to realise that it was way to early a turn point for me, I go a fair bit past the line and take a later turn point that works with the throttle control rule! At the time I thought that maybe the faster guys can turn earlier as long as they get the rear wheel spinning about the apex and at that moment point the bike where they want to go! An interesting point too about attack angles is if you watch Dani Pedrosa in this turn he actually pulls right into the pits exit lane to line up for it! Unobantium tires with an unobtanium bike and unobatium entry speed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotfoot Posted July 16, 2009 Report Share Posted July 16, 2009 Just as a note of interest Mike I did a trackday at donington earlier this year and I had watched a few video clips of the motogp guys there just to get an idea of the layout of the track! In that I noticed they were turning in at the white line so I tried that only once to realise that it was way to early a turn point for me, I go a fair bit past the line and take a later turn point that works with the throttle control rule! At the time I thought that maybe the faster guys can turn earlier as long as they get the rear wheel spinning about the apex and at that moment point the bike where they want to go! An interesting point too about attack angles is if you watch Dani Pedrosa in this turn he actually pulls right into the pits exit lane to line up for it! Unobantium tires with an unobtanium bike and unobatium entry speed? Is that three different spellings for one made-up word, or three different made-up words? You get points (uber-points?) for creativity, that's for sure!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Unobantium tires with an unobtanium bike and unobatium entry speed? Got to get me some of that there unobtainium Cobie, it looks like it could be a great wheeze! Bullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobie Fair Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Just as a note of interest Mike I did a trackday at donington earlier this year and I had watched a few video clips of the motogp guys there just to get an idea of the layout of the track! In that I noticed they were turning in at the white line so I tried that only once to realise that it was way to early a turn point for me, I go a fair bit past the line and take a later turn point that works with the throttle control rule! At the time I thought that maybe the faster guys can turn earlier as long as they get the rear wheel spinning about the apex and at that moment point the bike where they want to go! An interesting point too about attack angles is if you watch Dani Pedrosa in this turn he actually pulls right into the pits exit lane to line up for it! Unobantium tires with an unobtanium bike and unobatium entry speed? Is that three different spellings for one made-up word, or three different made-up words? You get points (uber-points?) for creativity, that's for sure!!! I thought about going back and editing it just to mess with you. CF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotfoot Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Just as a note of interest Mike I did a trackday at donington earlier this year and I had watched a few video clips of the motogp guys there just to get an idea of the layout of the track! In that I noticed they were turning in at the white line so I tried that only once to realise that it was way to early a turn point for me, I go a fair bit past the line and take a later turn point that works with the throttle control rule! At the time I thought that maybe the faster guys can turn earlier as long as they get the rear wheel spinning about the apex and at that moment point the bike where they want to go! An interesting point too about attack angles is if you watch Dani Pedrosa in this turn he actually pulls right into the pits exit lane to line up for it! Unobantium tires with an unobtanium bike and unobatium entry speed? Is that three different spellings for one made-up word, or three different made-up words? You get points (uber-points?) for creativity, that's for sure!!! I thought about going back and editing it just to mess with you. CF I guess that would be Fair play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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