Downshifting

[rchudgins]

In the DVD, A Twist of The Wrist II, it is recommended to blip the throttle between each gear change. If you know you need to drop 3 gears before a turn could you not just keep the clutch disengaged while you drop the gears down and just blip the throttle once?

[Jaybird180]

Most transmissions won't allow this. AND it's easy to miss a gear if yours does. Why not learn it one way and do it that way each time?

[Fajita Dave]

There is no reason why you couldn't. I've never heard of a motorcycle that wouldn't let you shift as many times as you want while keeping the clutch pulled in. On the track I'm not sure if its really a good idea. It would be very easy to over rev the bike if you let the clutch out to early and possibly ruin your engine. I do it once and a while on the street going up to stop lights or downshift 3 or 4 gears to pass someone on a two lane road.

 

Off-road I skipped past gears very often whether it was on the ground and in the air to setup for the next section I was going to hit. The gear ratio on my dirtbike is much closer then it is on any street bike though so it made it easier. Also there were no valves to strike on a 2 stroke engine if I screwed up.

[Jasonzilla]

I don't know of a bike that won't let you shift down as much as you want. I only do two gears at a time, but could do more. That goes for any bike I've ridden. Even on the track I'll downshift two at a time, then one good blip before letting out on the clutch, and it won't engine brake.

[RocketPunch]

In the DVD, A Twist of The Wrist II, it is recommended to blip the throttle between each gear change. If you know you need to drop 3 gears before a turn could you not just keep the clutch disengaged while you drop the gears down and just blip the throttle once?

 

The blip will not last long enough to make the "rev matching" effective after banging 3 gears down; but let say you did managed to bang 3 gears down for the blip, you will also render the concept of "rev matching" useless as now you will for sure over rev the bike and lock the rear up (no-slipper clutch bike)

[Jasonzilla]

In the DVD, A Twist of The Wrist II, it is recommended to blip the throttle between each gear change. If you know you need to drop 3 gears before a turn could you not just keep the clutch disengaged while you drop the gears down and just blip the throttle once?

 

The blip will not last long enough to make the "rev matching" effective after banging 3 gears down; but let say you did managed to bang 3 gears down for the blip, you will also render the concept of "rev matching" useless as now you will for sure over rev the bike and lock the rear up (no-slipper clutch bike)

 

I thought it wouldn't matter as long as the RPM's match the engine speed. If you haven't decelerated enough after shifting down 3, you'll have the problem of the engine seemingly locking up. It won't change the way a blip affects the engine.

[Progression]

Gents,

 

There is a great article on this by Keith in the article section (surprisingly enough)

http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=258

 

Andy

[RocketPunch]

If what he meant by dropping 3 gears with 1 blip meant disengage the clutch > drop 2 gears > blip > drop the last gear; it will work.

 

However, I don't think it will works as well as stepping the rev matching down one gear at a time as you decelerate, and I think more concentration will have to be diverted to keep track of multiple downshift with one clutch action. I personal feel the blip>drop, blip>drop more rhythmatic and natural, which in my case helps me put more concentration on something else.

[Cobie Fair]

If the clutch isn't let out, you are not sure that the gear change was made--sometimes it won't.

 

Clutch comes out between each shift. Part of the skill in this is matching the actions correctly, and doing it quickly (less distracting for one).

 

There is also the option to not use the clutch, in which case you just need to time it correctly (I don't use the clutch on downshifts, or upshifts. Zero machine damage if done correctly, zero).

 

CF

[harnois]

Are you talking about street or track here?

 

I can't image why you'd do that on the track. Once a rider learns to downshift one gear at a time with the throttle blip, and has practiced it enough that it's second nature, it's pretty easy to put 3 of those motions in a row very close together. Whereas this other method you are suggesting has all kinds of attention-hogging drawbacks that are already clearly put forth in above linked article.

 

But on the street only, I do in certain situations shift multiple gears up or down without engaging each gear. Why? Simply because it just doesn't matter that much how ya do it on the street at an easy pace, and there's such a huge rpm range in the bikes now plus the gears are so close together. It seems like quite a pointless waste of time and effort to shift 5 times between 0 and 60 when I can hit 60 in 1st gear! The bikes now are so overdone for street riding.

 

In a couple decades we'll have powerful long-range electric bikes and this whole silly shifting business will be a thing of the past that only old guys remember, so what's the point in even worrying about it?

[RocketPunch]

...In a couple decades we'll have powerful long-range electric bikes and this whole silly shifting business will be a thing of the past that only old guys remember, so what's the point in even worrying about it?

 

Don't have to wait for decades, the slipper clutch had already done that for bikes. Just like what DSG transmission and Nissan's SynchroRev Match did to the skill of heel & toe downshifting....

[harnois]

...In a couple decades we'll have powerful long-range electric bikes and this whole silly shifting business will be a thing of the past that only old guys remember, so what's the point in even worrying about it?

 

Don't have to wait for decades, the slipper clutch had already done that for bikes. Just like what DSG transmission and Nissan's SynchroRev Match did to the skill of heel & toe downshifting....

 

I hadn't heard of synchro-rev but I read about it and it sounds like it would be pretty fun in a car, or bike I guess!

 

But screw the DSG, the synchro whatever, CVTs (continuously variable transmission), and the whole transmission altogether, plus clutches, torque converters, intricate valve trains, catalytic converters, and fuel injection systems... all a bunch of complicated expensive solutions to overcome the inherent flaws in combustion engines.

 

And after all that, you still need a battery and an electric motor to bring the engine to life in the first place. People have gotten so used to these things that they take for granted how complicated it all is. And despite all the expensive and complicated emissions ######, they still end up causing smog in every city around the world.

 

Electric engine: Attach engine to rear wheel with chain and sprockets, twist throttle to go! Max torque from zero rpms! Wheelie machine! No clutch, no shifting. Totally off-topic but just say'n, my little rant, hehe. Where is that magic battery.

[Jaybird180]

Electric Bikes won't need chain and sprokets, DIRECT DRIVE with small rare earth magnets my friend.

 

 

Rocket Punch- Love the Avatar.

[Cobie Fair]

Good points Harnois, we just need some 500 mile full throttle batteries, eh? Or another source of energy yet...

[rchudgins]

I should have posted the question as "what is the advantage of blipping the throttle between each gear change", because you certainly could do either way. After reading the replies and thinking about the question as a system I have to agree with RocketPunch. By blipping the throttle between each shift you are making small step changes to the system which should result in better matching of the engine/trasmission RPMs. With a slipper cluth you have more room for error but I would assume that things will be smoother if you do not rely on the clutch breaking loose.

[Cobie Fair]

I should have posted the question as "what is the advantage of blipping the throttle between each gear change", because you certainly could do either way. After reading the replies and thinking about the question as a system I have to agree with RocketPunch. By blipping the throttle between each shift you are making small step changes to the system which should result in better matching of the engine/trasmission RPMs. With a slipper cluth you have more room for error but I would assume that things will be smoother if you do not rely on the clutch breaking loose.

 

And, I have seen slipper clutches not work (meaning the rear did lock up, bounce around).

[Hotfoot]

...In a couple decades we'll have powerful long-range electric bikes and this whole silly shifting business will be a thing of the past that only old guys remember, so what's the point in even worrying about it?

 

Don't have to wait for decades, the slipper clutch had already done that for bikes. Just like what DSG transmission and Nissan's SynchroRev Match did to the skill of heel & toe downshifting....

 

I hadn't heard of synchro-rev but I read about it and it sounds like it would be pretty fun in a car, or bike I guess!

 

But screw the DSG, the synchro whatever, CVTs (continuously variable transmission), and the whole transmission altogether, plus clutches, torque converters, intricate valve trains, catalytic converters, and fuel injection systems... all a bunch of complicated expensive solutions to overcome the inherent flaws in combustion engines.

 

And after all that, you still need a battery and an electric motor to bring the engine to life in the first place. People have gotten so used to these things that they take for granted how complicated it all is. And despite all the expensive and complicated emissions ######, they still end up causing smog in every city around the world.

 

Electric engine: Attach engine to rear wheel with chain and sprockets, twist throttle to go! Max torque from zero rpms! Wheelie machine! No clutch, no shifting. Totally off-topic but just say'n, my little rant, hehe. Where is that magic battery.

 

Getting kinda close - my daily commuter car has a CVT transmission and runs on natural gas, incredibly inexpensive to run, and ultra clean burning, so no smog and no crud in the engine, either. Oh, and I can drive it on the carpool lane. Heck of a deal and apparently a well-kept secret. (To your point, it certainly requires a lot less maintenance than those two-wheel chain-driven tire-shredding rockets in my garage. )

[Fajita Dave]

I should have posted the question as "what is the advantage of blipping the throttle between each gear change", because you certainly could do either way. After reading the replies and thinking about the question as a system I have to agree with RocketPunch. By blipping the throttle between each shift you are making small step changes to the system which should result in better matching of the engine/trasmission RPMs. With a slipper cluth you have more room for error but I would assume that things will be smoother if you do not rely on the clutch breaking loose.

 

And, I have seen slipper clutches not work (meaning the rear did lock up, bounce around).

 

I did screw up a downshift a little bit while doing some "spirited" riding on the street and the rear end kicked out a little bit when I downshifted to 2nd. I'm pretty sure my 08" GSXR600 has a slipper clutch on it stock. It didn't lock but it was fairly close to it. It let me back it into the corner a little bit by accident. I backed my dirtbike into many corners but doing it on a sportbike was a completely different experience which I hope I don't do again soon!

 

I wasn't to far off matching the RPMs either. It was probably about 2,000rpm lower then I needed when I let the clutch out. It could have been more, its not something I was paying to much attention to at the time.

[jodypresti]

I did screw up a downshift a little bit while doing some "spirited" riding on the street and the rear end kicked out a little bit when I downshifted to 2nd. I'm pretty sure my 08" GSXR600 has a slipper clutch on it stock. It didn't lock but it was fairly close to it. It let me back it into the corner a little bit by accident. I backed my dirtbike into many corners but doing it on a sportbike was a completely different experience which I hope I don't do again soon!

 

I wasn't to far off matching the RPMs either. It was probably about 2,000rpm lower then I needed when I let the clutch out. It could have been more, its not something I was paying to much attention to at the time.

 

Your k8 GSXR 600 does have a slipper clutch, but I found that it lacks the cohesiveness of its competitors. I don't street ride but did use the same bike for the track last year and upgraded to an aftermarket setup. Not saying you won't enjoy success with it but I found the same problem with the OEM as have you.

[RocketPunch]

Good points Harnois, we just need some 500 mile full throttle batteries, eh? Or another source of energy yet...

 

IMO, fuel cell is the future.

 

And, I have seen slipper clutches not work (meaning the rear did lock up, bounce around).

 

I did screw up a downshift a little bit while doing some "spirited" riding on the street and the rear end kicked out a little bit when I downshifted to 2nd. I'm pretty sure my 08" GSXR600 has a slipper clutch on it stock. It didn't lock but it was fairly close to it. It let me back it into the corner a little bit by accident. I backed my dirtbike into many corners but doing it on a sportbike was a completely different experience which I hope I don't do again soon!

 

I wasn't to far off matching the RPMs either. It was probably about 2,000rpm lower then I needed when I let the clutch out. It could have been more, its not something I was paying to much attention to at the time.

 

Don't the slipper clutch needs to be dialed in to match the type of riding? I am pretty sure most people riding on the street never bothered to spend the time to adjust the slipper clutch, just like most people don't realize the OEM rear spring is most likely over sprung for their weight.

 

This became a bigger problem when the rider solely depends on the slipper clutch thinking nothing he/she can do that will lock the rear up.

 

I hadn't heard of synchro-rev but I read about it and it sounds like it would be pretty fun in a car, or bike I guess!....

[Cobie Fair]

I've never messed with the clutch on my coach bike, if the revs are matched correctly, don't need it, and I don't use the clutch aside from taking off in 1st.

 

CF

[Jasonzilla]

I've spent the last few days seeing what the downshift 3 is about, and it's pretty hard. I can, and habitually do, downshift 2, give it a good blip, and am back to work. I tried downshifting 3, and when I blipped, I couldn't give it enough of a blip to get the RPM's up. It was crazy. I had to let it coast for a second, then it would allow me to crank the throttle and get some RPM's. I wonder how that works.

[Cobie Fair]

I've spent the last few days seeing what the downshift 3 is about, and it's pretty hard. I can, and habitually do, downshift 2, give it a good blip, and am back to work. I tried downshifting 3, and when I blipped, I couldn't give it enough of a blip to get the RPM's up. It was crazy. I had to let it coast for a second, then it would allow me to crank the throttle and get some RPM's. I wonder how that works.

 

Here is something you might try: when you brake, scrub off a bit of speed first, then make the downshifts later--this way you never have to blip it as high.

 

CF

[Jasonzilla]

I've spent the last few days seeing what the downshift 3 is about, and it's pretty hard. I can, and habitually do, downshift 2, give it a good blip, and am back to work. I tried downshifting 3, and when I blipped, I couldn't give it enough of a blip to get the RPM's up. It was crazy. I had to let it coast for a second, then it would allow me to crank the throttle and get some RPM's. I wonder how that works.

 

Here is something you might try: when you brake, scrub off a bit of speed first, then make the downshifts later--this way you never have to blip it as high.

 

CF

 

I get the speed down before I blip to match RPM's, but the engine just wouldn't crank (only after going down 3 gears without letting out on the throttle). I can try some other things, but even giving it a good goose got me nowhere.

[CHRISTOS]

The greatest EVER aproach to downshifting is..... cluchless, as mentioned on Keith's latest DVD "TOWII". I was very suprised-and pleased- that this particular action i have discovered by accident(!) on the track, was there in the computer screen!!! My discovery is that now i can find more space to see and move to, more time to think, act and sample interesting things, less distraction..."more money to spend buying new stuff or just save for an upcomming emergency!". I practice every day, on any ocasion. Thanks Keith!!