Mid-corner Lean Angle With Increasing Throttle

[Jasonzilla]

Jorge Lorenzo

 

Has lots of experience in this area

 

ROFLMAO.

[Jaybird180]

When on the side of the tire, the RPM will change because it changes the final gearing, not sure which way, but you can really tell on steeper profiled tires.

 

On the street we can get away with all kinds of things that teach us bad habits. These bad habits usually reinforce all of the SR induced errors that we work hard on and pay lots of money attending schools to eliminate.

[comptonchinee]

Hope I am not hijacking this thread, but I have a kind of related question...

 

I know that increasing lean angle and increasing throttle at the same time is a bad idea.

 

At the track I can see that this can be controlled to some extent by my approach and timing of my inputs to enter the corners... (turn bike, then roll on throttle...)

 

But on the street, where things change quickly, my question is,

 

If I am getting into the throttle, nowhere near wide open, if I change my lean angle and keep the throttle steady, although my RPM's may be rising from the previous mentioned getting into the throttle, is that the same kind of bad idea as above??

 

In other words, Increasing lean angle and increasing THROTTLE is a bad idea.

 

Is that the same as Increasing lean angle and increasing RPM with a constant throttle??? (Obviously there is just a small window where RPM's are rising to the level of your throttle opening, but I am not rolling on any more, I have stopped the throttle opening, but the RPM's are still rising...)

 

I think that it would depend on HOW MUCH the throttle was opened, therefore, how fast the RPM's are rising, or that I would get away with it when I am far from the limits of traction... But going fast are these things the same or can I look at them as different?? i.e. Throttle increase vs steady throttle, rising RPM's... while changing lean angle...

 

Hope that is clear?? Sorry if it is not...

 

It wasn't entirely clear but if the RPMs are going up then you're accelerating. From my understanding the most stable point to add lean angle at is to maintain the exact speed your going. So if your going 60mph and holding 60mph its perfectly safe to add more lean angle. Just remeber if you keep leaning a motorcycle lower it will eventually let go.

 

I have added lean angle and throttle on the street before but its usually just following traffic and not even remotely close to any kind of traction limits. Its when you have relatively high lean angles (the kind of lean angles you should only be finding on the track) that its an issue if you add throttle and more lean angle. Maybe a coach can go into more detail if thats not enough.

 

Thanks Dave, that pretty much is what I thought... Good to have it clarified a bit...

[Fajita Dave]

When on the side of the tire, the RPM will change because it changes the final gearing, not sure which way, but you can really tell on steeper profiled tires.

 

On the street we can get away with all kinds of things that teach us bad habits. These bad habits usually reinforce all of the SR induced errors that we work hard on and pay lots of money attending schools to eliminate.

 

The RPMs will go up. The smaller the radius of a tire gets the more it lowers the gear ratio for acceleration. I've had my bike to the edge of the tire plenty of times but I never really noticed the RPMs going up. A friend of mine that goes to quite a few track days said he never noticed it either until leaning it over into the kinked straight away at VIR North from around 150-160mph.

 

Speaking of the street teaching us bad habbits I caught myself starting to do one the other day . There is a corner very close to my house with a little but of a weird entry and I caught myself leaning into it while adding throttle. It didn't matter for the speed I was going but its a bad habbit to get into for a track day.

[Cobie Fair]

FJ,

 

Good that you caught that.

 

CF

[dmj120]

You seem to be asking, how can you steadily increase throttle throughout the turn without having to lean lower in order to stay on the line?

 

Seems like a good question to me, since physics would dictate that to maintain a constant radius arch through the turn you would have to lean lower and lower as you speed up. The other option though is that you maintain the lean angle but the radius of your line through the turn increases as you add speed. At severe lean angles, you should only be using enough throttle to create a subtle increase in speed, and so the increase in the radius of your line ends up being so subtle as to be basically imperceptible. Once you get to the exit of the turn, the radius of your line will get wider more progressively as you pour on the power and stand it up, so it flows quite naturally this way and leads to faster speed on the following straightaway.

 

Maybe the reason you feel you have to lean lower and lower is because you are turning in too early, causing you to run wide on the exit, and/or you are rolling on the throttle too aggressively or starting the roll-on too soon. Maybe try going in deeper, turning in later, and since throttle comes on after turn-in, that means the throttle would come on a bit later too.

 

 

excellent thoughts and viewpoint harnois!

 

Bullet

 

Yup!!! Give that man a beer!

 

I do quite a bit of self-talk through the turns - wait, turn, don't be lazy, look, once cracked open slow/smooth roll-on, etc. ANd when I do the more throttle & lean angle thing, I then say - it's good I'm slow or that coulda sucked (minus the colorful stuff); especially when I'm adjusting myself throughout the turn.

 

Thanks for asking the question, Andrew. I never associated adding lean angle and throttle as being so bad.

[faffi]

Prolly going to take som flak for this, but I need to ask. I wonder when does it become dangerous to add throttle and lean angle at the same time? As I rode through a long corner today, I accelerated from about 50 to 65 mph and at the end I was at the edge of the rear tyre (more lean and grip available aplenty, just that I had reached my maximum which equals with no chicken strips). I was accelerating smoothly and gently and also smoothly adding more lean.

 

My feeling is that I was still a very long way from actually taxing the grip limit of either tyre. Obviously, there is more stress on the rear tyre than there would be if I were just cruising through, but I'm pretty convinced there was quite a bit left.

 

So, how much lean is needed until this becomes a problem? Surely, leaning over from 20 to 30 degrees while accelerating cannot produce any cause for concern unless you have massive power that you put to full use?

[Hotfoot]

Prolly going to take som flak for this, but I need to ask. I wonder when does it become dangerous to add throttle and lean angle at the same time? As I rode through a long corner today, I accelerated from about 50 to 65 mph and at the end I was at the edge of the rear tyre (more lean and grip available aplenty, just that I had reached my maximum which equals with no chicken strips). I was accelerating smoothly and gently and also smoothly adding more lean.

 

My feeling is that I was still a very long way from actually taxing the grip limit of either tyre. Obviously, there is more stress on the rear tyre than there would be if I were just cruising through, but I'm pretty convinced there was quite a bit left.

 

So, how much lean is needed until this becomes a problem? Surely, leaning over from 20 to 30 degrees while accelerating cannot produce any cause for concern unless you have massive power that you put to full use?

 

 

I'm sure the answer to this question will depend a lot of factors, like road surface, what bike you ride, which tires you use, etc., and I won't try to address that part of the question. But, since I think Cobie is on the road right now and might not be available to respond to this, I'll repeat something I've heard him say lots of times: the danger of adding lean angle and throttle at the same time, is that if/when the rear tire DOES run out of grip, you don't get any warning, and it can toss you suddenly. And it can be a nasty way to fall. You are, after all, adding TWO stresses on the traction at the same time, inreasing lean angle AND throttle simultaneously, easy to shoot right past the "warning" stage and into the airborne stage.

 

On the other hand, if you are standing the bike up as you roll on the throttle, you are putting stress on the rear tire with the throttle, BUT you are also IMPROVING your traction by reducing lean angle, so you wouldn't be approaching the limit as rapidly. You would have a better chance of getting some warning if the tire starts to slide, and if you are already raising the bike more upright, you have a much better chance of recovering from a slide.

 

I'm curious, what was prompting you to add lean at the end of the long corner, versus driving and standing the bike up? Also, how did you know that you were at the edge of the tire?

[Jaybird180]

Excellent questions at the end Hotfoot.

 

I made the above mentioned Faux Pas about a week ago and felt the front give a bit, not the rear...Felt like it wanted to tuck. Or did I do something else?

[faffi]

Prolly going to take som flak for this, but I need to ask. I wonder when does it become dangerous to add throttle and lean angle at the same time? As I rode through a long corner today, I accelerated from about 50 to 65 mph and at the end I was at the edge of the rear tyre (more lean and grip available aplenty, just that I had reached my maximum which equals with no chicken strips). I was accelerating smoothly and gently and also smoothly adding more lean.

 

My feeling is that I was still a very long way from actually taxing the grip limit of either tyre. Obviously, there is more stress on the rear tyre than there would be if I were just cruising through, but I'm pretty convinced there was quite a bit left.

 

So, how much lean is needed until this becomes a problem? Surely, leaning over from 20 to 30 degrees while accelerating cannot produce any cause for concern unless you have massive power that you put to full use?

 

 

I'm sure the answer to this question will depend a lot of factors, like road surface, what bike you ride, which tires you use, etc., and I won't try to address that part of the question. But, since I think Cobie is on the road right now and might not be available to respond to this, I'll repeat something I've heard him say lots of times: the danger of adding lean angle and throttle at the same time, is that if/when the rear tire DOES run out of grip, you don't get any warning, and it can toss you suddenly. And it can be a nasty way to fall. You are, after all, adding TWO stresses on the traction at the same time, inreasing lean angle AND throttle simultaneously, easy to shoot right past the "warning" stage and into the airborne stage.

 

On the other hand, if you are standing the bike up as you roll on the throttle, you are putting stress on the rear tire with the throttle, BUT you are also IMPROVING your traction by reducing lean angle, so you wouldn't be approaching the limit as rapidly. You would have a better chance of getting some warning if the tire starts to slide, and if you are already raising the bike more upright, you have a much better chance of recovering from a slide.

 

I'm curious, what was prompting you to add lean at the end of the long corner, versus driving and standing the bike up? Also, how did you know that you were at the edge of the tire?

 

Thank you for stating what I pretty much assumed to be the case. I just feel I am safely within the realms of the grip the few times I do this. I've done it around a couple of corners for many, many years.

 

The reason for the action is that these two corners that spring to mind where I ride this way, is that they both have a change of direction going into them and both the way their shape is initially and the fact that they start out as off-camber corners and gradually gets into positive camber makes it fun to accelerate through, but scary to attack from the onset. Did that make any sense I know that I were on the edge of the tyre because the sidestand was just touching down, which is as far as I ever lean - and I do not have any chicken strips, only a tenth of a mm here and there around the circumference where the tyre isn't absolutely even

[Bullet]

Prolly going to take som flak for this, but I need to ask. I wonder when does it become dangerous to add throttle and lean angle at the same time? As I rode through a long corner today, I accelerated from about 50 to 65 mph and at the end I was at the edge of the rear tyre (more lean and grip available aplenty, just that I had reached my maximum which equals with no chicken strips). I was accelerating smoothly and gently and also smoothly adding more lean.

 

My feeling is that I was still a very long way from actually taxing the grip limit of either tyre. Obviously, there is more stress on the rear tyre than there would be if I were just cruising through, but I'm pretty convinced there was quite a bit left.

 

So, how much lean is needed until this becomes a problem? Surely, leaning over from 20 to 30 degrees while accelerating cannot produce any cause for concern unless you have massive power that you put to full use?

 

 

I'm sure the answer to this question will depend a lot of factors, like road surface, what bike you ride, which tires you use, etc., and I won't try to address that part of the question. But, since I think Cobie is on the road right now and might not be available to respond to this, I'll repeat something I've heard him say lots of times: the danger of adding lean angle and throttle at the same time, is that if/when the rear tire DOES run out of grip, you don't get any warning, and it can toss you suddenly. And it can be a nasty way to fall. You are, after all, adding TWO stresses on the traction at the same time, inreasing lean angle AND throttle simultaneously, easy to shoot right past the "warning" stage and into the airborne stage.

 

On the other hand, if you are standing the bike up as you roll on the throttle, you are putting stress on the rear tire with the throttle, BUT you are also IMPROVING your traction by reducing lean angle, so you wouldn't be approaching the limit as rapidly. You would have a better chance of getting some warning if the tire starts to slide, and if you are already raising the bike more upright, you have a much better chance of recovering from a slide.

 

I'm curious, what was prompting you to add lean at the end of the long corner, versus driving and standing the bike up? Also, how did you know that you were at the edge of the tire?

 

Thank you for stating what I pretty much assumed to be the case. I just feel I am safely within the realms of the grip the few times I do this. I've done it around a couple of corners for many, many years.

 

The reason for the action is that these two corners that spring to mind where I ride this way, is that they both have a change of direction going into them and both the way their shape is initially and the fact that they start out as off-camber corners and gradually gets into positive camber makes it fun to accelerate through, but scary to attack from the onset. Did that make any sense I know that I were on the edge of the tyre because the sidestand was just touching down, which is as far as I ever lean - and I do not have any chicken strips, only a tenth of a mm here and there around the circumference where the tyre isn't absolutely even

 

 

The other thing is, as the bike leans further, the suspension becomes less, and less effective. Whilst you can get away with this riding issue because of lower speed and modern tyre grip, the reality is that increasing lean angle through a corner with throttle roll on indicates an issue with either in appropriate roll-on (timing, too much, etc, etc), of your line was wrong.

 

Whilst it may feel very exciting, and it's a comment I get from a lot of students that do this, it's bad technique all the same, and can get you into a lot of trouble.

 

Bullet

[Hotfoot]

 

 

Thank you for stating what I pretty much assumed to be the case. I just feel I am safely within the realms of the grip the few times I do this. I've done it around a couple of corners for many, many years.

 

The reason for the action is that these two corners that spring to mind where I ride this way, is that they both have a change of direction going into them and both the way their shape is initially and the fact that they start out as off-camber corners and gradually gets into positive camber makes it fun to accelerate through, but scary to attack from the onset. Did that make any sense I know that I were on the edge of the tyre because the sidestand was just touching down, which is as far as I ever lean - and I do not have any chicken strips, only a tenth of a mm here and there around the circumference where the tyre isn't absolutely even

 

Oh! Now it makes more sense, if the turns you are riding go to a positive camber at the end, the forces acting on your bike change - in your favor - so you may be able to get away with a bit more lean, but it seems a bit tricky to judge (just thinking over the math makes my head hurt, maybe Jaybird will want to start calculating the changes in cornering force on the tire and the improved effectiveness of the suspension as the camber changes) so just be careful!!

 

Also thanks for telling me how you were judging that you were on the edge of the tire - since it's very hard for me to get my knee down (I'm short) I was wondering how you could tell in a particular corner if you were at the edge. I'm not too interested in dragging my sidestand, though, guess I'll have to find another way! I need kneepucks with curb feelers.

[peevSTer]

Hi, Andrew:

 

I ran into a problem specifically in turn 4 at Barber Park, which is a "hairpin" type according to Keith. Kristi caught me on this, thank goodness! I was turning the bike again after initial turn in, applying pressure to the bars as I was in the turn, and of course rolling on the throttle. When she pointed this out, and reminded me of "one steering input per turn," it allowed me to figure out where I was going wrong. My riding error was using up 98% of tire grip, which made for concern from my sharp eyed rider coach. (the 98% was Kristi's estimate, and due to her experience am going to use that figure!)

 

JP actually pointed out to me the necessity of relaxing on the bars while at VIR, so it was a habit.

 

What I had to do to eliminate the error was be stabilized on the bike so that I could reduce pressure on the bars and just allow the bike to ride out the chosen amount of steering input once done with rolling on of the throttle. While in the turn, when I became aware of my tendency to add pressure, I concentrated on the outside leg dug into the tank for stability in order to avoid turning the bike in more. I found that my initial steering input was adequate and that I needed to allow the bike to ride the line out, with normal throttle roll on, and avoid additional input to the bars while in the turn.