Mid-corner Lean Angle With Increasing Throttle

[andrewf125]

In Code's book, I read that after you enter the corner, you are suppose to keep rolling on the throttle smoothly and consistently through the exit point.

 

I found out that I can carry a lot more cornering speed if I crack open the throttle just a little bit more during cornering, but at the same time I have to lean the bike even more to hold my line. This applies to long sweeping corners.

 

My question is, is it ok to keep rolling on the throttle while leaning the bike even further over to maintain direction?

 

It seems contradictory to what I heve read because you cannot add both lean angle and throttle at the same time. I'm beginning to think maybe I haven't been anywhere near the limit of traction in the corners. I still have about 1/4 inch strip on the edge of my front tires (Michelin Power one Type-V).

 

A perfect example of where I do this is Turn 2 at Willow springs where you are leaned over for a long period of time. You can really make up a lot of time by carrying a higher corner speed there.

[stuman]

Adding lean angle and throttle at the same time = VERY BAD!

 

 

You're probably right in that you aren't close to the limit of traction yet. When you get closer this could really cost you.

[ozfireblade]

Mate I wouldnt be getting into the habit of more throttle and increasing lean angle. as you get faster you might get a bit of a shock when you start looking at your rear tyre then your bike heading offinto the distance....minus you of course.

 

I wouldnt worry about the front tyre so much as the driving force is coming form the rear. If theres no chicken strips on the rear then you cant really increase lean angle without using the non rubber bit ie the inside of the rim, of course this will end in you and the bike doing a very close track inspection.

 

I would suggest to get yourself booked into level 1 and clarify some points in your riding.

 

Ride safe

[Cobie Fair]

Andrew,

 

Stuman already answered, and Oz chimed in, but those 2 together is the source of more crashes than we can count. I had 2 guys at a previous school, worked with them all day long to NOT do this, and they both crashed later in the day, reverting to old habits. They were so happy, had made huge changes, but they still slid back into that old mode of doing the 2 together!! Neither was hurt, minor bike damage (both in the same slow turn, but I was unhappy--they were my guys!

 

Best,

CF

[lwarner]

Not to pile on here, but what Stuman, Oz and Cobie said: +1.

[andrewf125]

Ok I got the point I'll stop doing that before it becomes a bad habit.

 

I am guessing that I am entering the corner too slowly and after the initial turn in I realize I can go faster so I lean the bike over more while applying more throttle. I've been thinking and what I think I need to do is enter the corner faster and flick the bike down to the desired lean and keep a constant maintenance throttle. Thoughts?

 

And there are varying degrees of maintenace throttle right? Like T8 at Willow Springs, I would assume maintenance throttle for that turn is basically wide open since you are not at the limit of the bikes traction, even with 100% throttle.

 

I've been meaning to sign up for a school, but haven't gotten around to it. I've read both twist of the wrist I & II and have seen the Twist of the wrist II video which was pretty helpful. And this forum is quite useful! I dont know any other forums that discuss riding technique to such detail.

[lwarner]

Re: "maintenance throttle", you should check out Chapter 2 section one of Twist 2, especially the section on "light touch" and "Rule number one" of throttle control (page 7 in my copy).

The book also mentions in chapter 4 Throttle Control "Other Exceptions", some exceptions to the Rule (page 22 in my copy).

Level 1 has a drill to help with this but even if you just pay particular attention in Twist 2 to the basic rule of Throttle Control and then "say it to yourself 1000 or 2000 times" it will make a huge difference.

I laughed when I first heard that: "hahah 1000 or 2000 times, yeah right!" but then one day I went "Oh!!!" he's serious.

[andrewf125]

Re: "maintenance throttle", you should check out Chapter 2 section one of Twist 2, especially the section on "light touch" and "Rule number one" of throttle control (page 7 in my copy).

The book also mentions in chapter 4 Throttle Control "Other Exceptions", some exceptions to the Rule (page 22 in my copy).

Level 1 has a drill to help with this but even if you just pay particular attention in Twist 2 to the basic rule of Throttle Control and then "say it to yourself 1000 or 2000 times" it will make a huge difference.

I laughed when I first heard that: "hahah 1000 or 2000 times, yeah right!" but then one day I went "Oh!!!" he's serious.

 

Thanks man. Reading those sections cleared up a few things for me. It's amazing that you can forget what you've read before and also pick up new information after glancing at it again. I guess as you gain more experience and improve your riding you can always refer back to the book and relate to it a little more.

[lwarner]

[ I guess as you gain more experience and improve your riding you can always refer back to the book and relate to it a little more.

 

So true, that's definitely how it's been for me.

[Jasonzilla]

I got black flagged at the school for doing that. The corner worker caught it. It's easy getting over that habit, but hard to get back up to the same speed you were doing while you were rolling those dice.

[tweek]

This is interesting. I'm finally to a point where I know where both the left and right side of my bike are. Once my knee has touched I basically know how far over I am and am comfortable rolling on the throttle as I start picking the bike back up. There is a feeling the bike gives back as you add the throttle which is part of the comfort. However, I've never tried to add throttle without that feeling and have no idea what I'd do if I started rolling on with that feeling and then have that feeling suddenly disappear. Stand the bike up I guess and prepare to do some dual sportin I guess.

[Cobie Fair]

Hi Andrew,

 

That is like what we often hear at the school. You can read it, but then getting someone to watch you doing it, how well (or poorly) can really be a help.

 

One thing that came up recently with a student was really making it clear to him that a key part of the curriculum is making sure the students know what they are doing correctly, like really sure. We often get asked, "Hey, tell me what I'm doing wrong" and that does get covered, but the other side is just (maybe more) important.

 

CF

[ZMY600GO]

Hi Andrew,

 

That is like what we often hear at the school. You can read it, but then getting someone to watch you doing it, how well (or poorly) can really be a help.

 

One thing that came up recently with a student was really making it clear to him that a key part of the curriculum is making sure the students know what they are doing correctly, like really sure. We often get asked, "Hey, tell me what I'm doing wrong" and that does get covered, but the other side is just (maybe more) important.

 

CF

 

So, basically once you crack/open the throttle an start your corner, you dont want to add any more Gas/throttle to go faster, Right?

[Bullet]

Hi Andrew,

 

That is like what we often hear at the school. You can read it, but then getting someone to watch you doing it, how well (or poorly) can really be a help.

 

One thing that came up recently with a student was really making it clear to him that a key part of the curriculum is making sure the students know what they are doing correctly, like really sure. We often get asked, "Hey, tell me what I'm doing wrong" and that does get covered, but the other side is just (maybe more) important.

 

CF

 

So, basically once you crack/open the throttle an start your corner, you dont want to add any more Gas/throttle to go faster, Right?

 

That's not the throttle rule, no. Read the section in TW2 on throttle control, and find throttle rule No.1.

 

Bullet

[Jaybird180]

Jorge Lorenzo

 

Has lots of experience in this area

[harnois]

You seem to be asking, how can you steadily increase throttle throughout the turn without having to lean lower in order to stay on the line?

 

Seems like a good question to me, since physics would dictate that to maintain a constant radius arch through the turn you would have to lean lower and lower as you speed up. The other option though is that you maintain the lean angle but the radius of your line through the turn increases as you add speed. At severe lean angles, you should only be using enough throttle to create a subtle increase in speed, and so the increase in the radius of your line ends up being so subtle as to be basically imperceptible. Once you get to the exit of the turn, the radius of your line will get wider more progressively as you pour on the power and stand it up, so it flows quite naturally this way and leads to faster speed on the following straightaway.

 

Maybe the reason you feel you have to lean lower and lower is because you are turning in too early, causing you to run wide on the exit, and/or you are rolling on the throttle too aggressively or starting the roll-on too soon. Maybe try going in deeper, turning in later, and since throttle comes on after turn-in, that means the throttle would come on a bit later too.

[Bullet]

You seem to be asking, how can you steadily increase throttle throughout the turn without having to lean lower in order to stay on the line?

 

Seems like a good question to me, since physics would dictate that to maintain a constant radius arch through the turn you would have to lean lower and lower as you speed up. The other option though is that you maintain the lean angle but the radius of your line through the turn increases as you add speed. At severe lean angles, you should only be using enough throttle to create a subtle increase in speed, and so the increase in the radius of your line ends up being so subtle as to be basically imperceptible. Once you get to the exit of the turn, the radius of your line will get wider more progressively as you pour on the power and stand it up, so it flows quite naturally this way and leads to faster speed on the following straightaway.

 

Maybe the reason you feel you have to lean lower and lower is because you are turning in too early, causing you to run wide on the exit, and/or you are rolling on the throttle too aggressively or starting the roll-on too soon. Maybe try going in deeper, turning in later, and since throttle comes on after turn-in, that means the throttle would come on a bit later too.

 

 

excellent thoughts and viewpoint harnois!

 

Bullet

[andrewf125]

So going through a turn with a steep lean angle, you will need to roll on the throttle harder to keep your line.

 

But if you enter at a more shallow lean angle, you use less throttle to hold the same line.

 

Seems contradictory to me. I thought if you are at a steeper lean angle you can't use as much throttle. Thoughts?

[Cobie Fair]

So going through a turn with a steep lean angle, you will need to roll on the throttle harder to keep your line.

 

But if you enter at a more shallow lean angle, you use less throttle to hold the same line.

 

Seems contradictory to me. I thought if you are at a steeper lean angle you can't use as much throttle. Thoughts?

 

Andrew,

 

Just so I'm clear, what is your exact question here: that you can/can't use more throttle at steeper lean angles, or is it holding the line?

 

CF

[andrewf125]

So going through a turn with a steep lean angle, you will need to roll on the throttle harder to keep your line.

 

But if you enter at a more shallow lean angle, you use less throttle to hold the same line.

 

Seems contradictory to me. I thought if you are at a steeper lean angle you can't use as much throttle. Thoughts?

 

Andrew,

 

Just so I'm clear, what is your exact question here: that you can/can't use more throttle at steeper lean angles, or is it holding the line?

 

CF

 

 

 

 

 

Let me try to paint a clearer picture.

 

Both riders enter a long sweeping corner using the same racing line.

 

Rider A enters with moderate lean angle and holds the throttle at a steady 20%.

 

Rider B enters with severe lean angle and holds the throttle steady at 20%.

 

Given that Rider B is using the same throttle position (20%) as Rider A, I would imagine that Rider B's line would tighten up as Rider B is at a steeper lean angle.

 

Therefore Rider B needs to use more throttle to hold his line, say 30% throttle.

 

 

So that leads to the conclusion that you need to use more throttle at a steeper lean angle to hold the same line.

 

Or am I missing something here?

[Bullet]

So going through a turn with a steep lean angle, you will need to roll on the throttle harder to keep your line.

 

But if you enter at a more shallow lean angle, you use less throttle to hold the same line.

 

Seems contradictory to me. I thought if you are at a steeper lean angle you can't use as much throttle. Thoughts?

 

Andrew,

 

Just so I'm clear, what is your exact question here: that you can/can't use more throttle at steeper lean angles, or is it holding the line?

 

CF

 

 

 

 

 

Let me try to paint a clearer picture.

 

Both riders enter a long sweeping corner using the same racing line.

 

Rider A enters with moderate lean angle and holds the throttle at a steady 20%.

 

Rider B enters with severe lean angle and holds the throttle steady at 20%.

 

Given that Rider B is using the same throttle position (20%) as Rider A, I would imagine that Rider B's line would tighten up as Rider B is at a steeper lean angle.

 

Therefore Rider B needs to use more throttle to hold his line, say 30% throttle.

 

 

So that leads to the conclusion that you need to use more throttle at a steeper lean angle to hold the same line.

 

Or am I missing something here?

 

 

 

Hi mate,

 

You have some confusion here for sure.

 

Consider if you will for a second your scenarios, why would rider A and Rider B's lean angle by different? There are few factors that can affect this, but the largest is entry speed into the turn. So in your scenario, what you're effectively saying is that you want to apply more throttle with the rider that's going considerably faster? Clearly the phsyics in this scenario are completely the wrong way around? Surely the slower rider can apply more throttle earlier, because their entry speed is slower, than the faster rider?

 

If you have TW2, I'd definitely reccomend re-reading the section on throttle control (pages 6 through 9) and lines (pages 18 - 23.).

 

Bullet

[andrewf125]

So going through a turn with a steep lean angle, you will need to roll on the throttle harder to keep your line.

 

But if you enter at a more shallow lean angle, you use less throttle to hold the same line.

 

Seems contradictory to me. I thought if you are at a steeper lean angle you can't use as much throttle. Thoughts?

 

Andrew,

 

Just so I'm clear, what is your exact question here: that you can/can't use more throttle at steeper lean angles, or is it holding the line?

 

CF

 

 

 

 

 

Let me try to paint a clearer picture.

 

Both riders enter a long sweeping corner using the same racing line.

 

Rider A enters with moderate lean angle and holds the throttle at a steady 20%.

 

Rider B enters with severe lean angle and holds the throttle steady at 20%.

 

Given that Rider B is using the same throttle position (20%) as Rider A, I would imagine that Rider B's line would tighten up as Rider B is at a steeper lean angle.

 

Therefore Rider B needs to use more throttle to hold his line, say 30% throttle.

 

 

So that leads to the conclusion that you need to use more throttle at a steeper lean angle to hold the same line.

 

Or am I missing something here?

 

 

 

Hi mate,

 

You have some confusion here for sure.

 

Consider if you will for a second your scenarios, why would rider A and Rider B's lean angle by different? There are few factors that can affect this, but the largest is entry speed into the turn. So in your scenario, what you're effectively saying is that you want to apply more throttle with the rider that's going considerably faster? Clearly the phsyics in this scenario are completely the wrong way around? Surely the slower rider can apply more throttle earlier, because their entry speed is slower, than the faster rider?

 

If you have TW2, I'd definitely reccomend re-reading the section on throttle control (pages 6 through 9) and lines (pages 18 - 23.).

 

Bullet

 

You're right! Totally forgot about the entry speed factor.

[comptonchinee]

Hope I am not hijacking this thread, but I have a kind of related question...

 

I know that increasing lean angle and increasing throttle at the same time is a bad idea.

 

At the track I can see that this can be controlled to some extent by my approach and timing of my inputs to enter the corners... (turn bike, then roll on throttle...)

 

But on the street, where things change quickly, my question is,

 

If I am getting into the throttle, nowhere near wide open, if I change my lean angle and keep the throttle steady, although my RPM's may be rising from the previous mentioned getting into the throttle, is that the same kind of bad idea as above??

 

In other words, Increasing lean angle and increasing THROTTLE is a bad idea.

 

Is that the same as Increasing lean angle and increasing RPM with a constant throttle??? (Obviously there is just a small window where RPM's are rising to the level of your throttle opening, but I am not rolling on any more, I have stopped the throttle opening, but the RPM's are still rising...)

 

I think that it would depend on HOW MUCH the throttle was opened, therefore, how fast the RPM's are rising, or that I would get away with it when I am far from the limits of traction... But going fast are these things the same or can I look at them as different?? i.e. Throttle increase vs steady throttle, rising RPM's... while changing lean angle...

 

Hope that is clear?? Sorry if it is not...

[Fajita Dave]

So going through a turn with a steep lean angle, you will need to roll on the throttle harder to keep your line.

 

But if you enter at a more shallow lean angle, you use less throttle to hold the same line.

 

Seems contradictory to me. I thought if you are at a steeper lean angle you can't use as much throttle. Thoughts?

 

Andrew,

 

Just so I'm clear, what is your exact question here: that you can/can't use more throttle at steeper lean angles, or is it holding the line?

 

CF

 

 

 

 

 

Let me try to paint a clearer picture.

 

Both riders enter a long sweeping corner using the same racing line.

 

Rider A enters with moderate lean angle and holds the throttle at a steady 20%.

 

Rider B enters with severe lean angle and holds the throttle steady at 20%.

 

Given that Rider B is using the same throttle position (20%) as Rider A, I would imagine that Rider B's line would tighten up as Rider B is at a steeper lean angle.

 

Therefore Rider B needs to use more throttle to hold his line, say 30% throttle.

 

 

So that leads to the conclusion that you need to use more throttle at a steeper lean angle to hold the same line.

 

Or am I missing something here?

 

 

 

Thats not really the way to look at it because its relative to how fast you enter the corner. Try not to get actual corner speed mixed up with how much throttle input you have. Your corner speed and lean angle is set at the entrance of the corner. Your throttle input is applied from around the apex and should be steadily increased throughout the exit of the corner. Bottom line is IF you need to increase your lean angle as you get on the throttle you made a mistake earlier in the corner. All your doing is trying to fix one mistake with another mistake.

 

Edit: Opps I forgot to read page 2, someone already covered that

[Fajita Dave]

Hope I am not hijacking this thread, but I have a kind of related question...

 

I know that increasing lean angle and increasing throttle at the same time is a bad idea.

 

At the track I can see that this can be controlled to some extent by my approach and timing of my inputs to enter the corners... (turn bike, then roll on throttle...)

 

But on the street, where things change quickly, my question is,

 

If I am getting into the throttle, nowhere near wide open, if I change my lean angle and keep the throttle steady, although my RPM's may be rising from the previous mentioned getting into the throttle, is that the same kind of bad idea as above??

 

In other words, Increasing lean angle and increasing THROTTLE is a bad idea.

 

Is that the same as Increasing lean angle and increasing RPM with a constant throttle??? (Obviously there is just a small window where RPM's are rising to the level of your throttle opening, but I am not rolling on any more, I have stopped the throttle opening, but the RPM's are still rising...)

 

I think that it would depend on HOW MUCH the throttle was opened, therefore, how fast the RPM's are rising, or that I would get away with it when I am far from the limits of traction... But going fast are these things the same or can I look at them as different?? i.e. Throttle increase vs steady throttle, rising RPM's... while changing lean angle...

 

Hope that is clear?? Sorry if it is not...

 

It wasn't entirely clear but if the RPMs are going up then you're accelerating. From my understanding the most stable point to add lean angle at is to maintain the exact speed your going. So if your going 60mph and holding 60mph its perfectly safe to add more lean angle. Just remeber if you keep leaning a motorcycle lower it will eventually let go.

 

I have added lean angle and throttle on the street before but its usually just following traffic and not even remotely close to any kind of traction limits. Its when you have relatively high lean angles (the kind of lean angles you should only be finding on the track) that its an issue if you add throttle and more lean angle. Maybe a coach can go into more detail if thats not enough.