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What Rpm In A Corner?


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Hello all

 

Did level 1 recently and quite new to biking so apologies if this has been covered already (if it has maybe a link to the thread?)

 

I have a Yamaha 2009 R6 and my question is this:

 

Once leaned over in a corner what is the best RPM range to be in before starting the roll on of acceleration?

 

I tend to be in the 3000-5000 rpm area and it seems as soon as i crack the throttle open there is a slight delay/kick/jump forward before the bike starts accelerating smoothly. This unsettles the bike a bit and worries me in the wet. Should I be much higher in the rev range or is this a problem with my throttle?

 

Thanks

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It doesn't really matter what revs your bike is doing before starting the throttle roll on, just match the gear to the speed and what you are trying to achieve. Higher revs generally if you are pushing, on the track my bike won't drop below 8,000 but on the road I would be lucky to hit that (especially around town).

 

Inline fours are really quite peaky in their power and to get the most out of them need to be higher in the rev range.

 

Just remember the throttle control rule still applies in any cornering situation.

 

As for the jerkyness of the throttle, how much free play on the throttle do you have? i.e. with the engine off, how far does the throttle turn before you feel resistance? It may be that you feel that you are twisting on the throttle but really not in terms of opening the throttle bodies, I test rode a new bike the other day and it took quite a bit to get used the change (it was really loose but my bikes are set up quite tight and responsive). Other than that could be any number of issues with mapping/injection/etc.

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Hello N8terider:

 

Welcome to the Superbike Forum. You have good feel to notice the way your bike is responding as you get back on the gas. It's good that you are comfortable enough to notice these things while you are turning.

 

Every bike I've ever ridden has at least a little jump or jerk when you go from completely off the throttle to back on the throttle. The tricky bit is to have enough sensitivity with your throttle control to reduce that catch to the minimum. You have to take up the slack in the throttle cable, the fuel system, the chain, the shocks, even the seat as you squish back. The weight of you and the bike has to shift backward before you can roll on the throttle. You could think of this as taking up the slack, or as getting the bike to neutral, or as going to maintenance throttle.

 

In one sense the engine speed doesn't really matter because there are still all those little pieces of technology and body weight that need to shift from falling forward to leaning back. That's all going to be there no matter how fast the engine is turning. On the other hand, the better you are at matching your speed, gear selection and rpm range, the smoother you'll be. Also, the power will be more gentle and easier to control in the lower rpm ranges. When you come back on the throttle at 10,000 rpm, you'll know it. Professionals do this really well. Me? I'm just not that smooth.

 

I do try. I like to get the bike in gear before turning into the corners. I do NOT want to be shifting gears while I'm leaning or leaned over. When you get a chance, ride a big twin, like a Ducati or Suzuki V-Strom. Most V-twin riders will let the rpms drop a lot going into the corners, then get on the power in the gentle rpm range and ride the torque curve out of the turn. With your 4-cylinder R6, the game is to keep the rpms toward the top end without running out of horsepower or scaring yourself silly when the power comes on.

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It sounds like you want to revisit the throttle control lesson again, there are a few threads on her eabout when to pick up the throttle when turning in to make things smoother. It soundbs like you're gettign on the gas a bit too late and maybe too hard (sudden).

 

Engine speed sounds a bit low, maybe okay for something like a hairpin where you're crawling through it. Once you're more comfortable you'll use higher revs and get more drive. It depends a bit on the bend too, if there is a long exit where the bike is cranked over, you can start at low speed as it builds up to decent revs by the time you can stand it up. If the exit is short you'll have the bike upright and be waiting to reach the powerband while you're still chugging along.

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Some good suggestions. I'd check throttle slack, how well it moves (lubricated), chain tension (not too tight or loose), and then some bikes have a little harsh response from off to just cracked on, and have to be gently with those. Most of the time, riders just need to be a little patient, make that a clean transition from off to on. RPM isn't much of an issue unless in 1st gear, and the bike can be a bit jerky, but we have done exercises in as high as 6th gear, engine barely turning over and the bike was fine. A few big twins can get a little jerky, but that's about it.

 

Make sense?

 

CF

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Two things I have found help with this:

 

1) trailing the rear brake when you crack open the throttle

 

2) Getting your bike dyno tuned to reduce it.

 

No. 2 is probably your best option, use to happen all the time on my old GSXR 750 (k7) but got a PCIII and a good dynotune and it was gone, it had the same feeling to that of a carbie'd bike.

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Thanks for the responses so far. Excellent suggestions

Dark Suzuki, strangely enough I have my R6 booked in to get my PC5 mapped :D I also try to change the air filter regularly to improve response.

 

I used to have an SV650 and I remember the difference in power and feel, so different. Throttle slack on my R6 is as Manual states. A bit too much for my liking but when I adjusted the SV650 the MOT guys just put it back to standard, gggrrrr. I don't think adjusting it would be a good anyway especially since its fly-by-wire electronically controlled. The manual says you need to do all sorts of faffing with the electronics and throttle bodies to adjust it.

 

From all your suggestions I will try the following and report back

1. Work on being in the right gear for the corner and match the engine speed

2. Before I roll-on the throttle I will try and make sure there is some throttle cable tension instead of going from complete off to cracked on

 

Also, my chain seems a little loose so I will tighten that a tad

 

Cheers all

 

Nath

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Hello all

 

Did level 1 recently and quite new to biking so apologies if this has been covered already (if it has maybe a link to the thread?)

 

I have a Yamaha 2009 R6 and my question is this:

 

Once leaned over in a corner what is the best RPM range to be in before starting the roll on of acceleration?

 

I tend to be in the 3000-5000 rpm area and it seems as soon as i crack the throttle open there is a slight delay/kick/jump forward before the bike starts accelerating smoothly. This unsettles the bike a bit and worries me in the wet. Should I be much higher in the rev range or is this a problem with my throttle?

 

Thanks

I suggest you get your revs up a little higher, and you might also consider some sprocket changes if you haven't already (-1 tooth front and/or +2 tooth rear is the most common change for the R6). I recently started riding a 2007 R6, and I have a noticeable, though not excessive, abrupt throttle response below 6000 rpm; this despite (or maybe because of) a tuned PCIII, Termignoni exhaust pipe, and custom headers. However, get the bike over 6000 rpm and things smooth out very nicely; over 9000 rpm it is very smooth and pulls very strong. In years past I didn't rev up my motors too much, and usually rolled around in the 3500-5500 rpm range 95% of the time. Since I got the R6 I've been forcing myself to ride in a slightly higher rpm range - more like 5000-9000 rpm these days - and it feels much better that way.

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I suggest you get your revs up a little higher, and you might also consider some sprocket changes if you haven't already (-1 tooth front and/or +2 tooth rear is the most common change for the R6). I recently started riding a 2007 R6, and I have a noticeable, though not excessive, abrupt throttle response below 6000 rpm; this despite (or maybe because of) a tuned PCIII, Termignoni exhaust pipe, and custom headers. However, get the bike over 6000 rpm and things smooth out very nicely; over 9000 rpm it is very smooth and pulls very strong. In years past I didn't rev up my motors too much, and usually rolled around in the 3500-5500 rpm range 95% of the time. Since I got the R6 I've been forcing myself to ride in a slightly higher rpm range - more like 5000-9000 rpm these days - and it feels much better that way.

 

Hi. Yep. Have -1 +1 at the mo with a SpeedoHealer. Nice bit of extra pull. I'm getting a proper map very soon but the current one is nice and smooth from 4000 up with turbo kicking in at 9000. Love it !

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Quite a few things going on here. My first question is whether or not you blip. It's extremely important because if you don't, and you engine brake, you're letting the engine dictate what speed (and RPM's) you're going in at. Most tracks have a huge variety of different size corners, and allowing the engine to brake the bike, be it 2nd or 3rd gear (ANY gear actually), is going to give you 2 different speeds: the speed the bike puts you in when you're in second gear and release the clutch, and the speed you're going to be given when you release the clutch in third gear. The reason I mention this is that if you engine brake, it's going to drag you down to a lower RPM range, like where you're at now. Blipping allows YOU to set your speed and keep your RPM's up so they match that speed when you let the throttle out. You'll never properly sort this until you learn blipping (if you don't do it now).

 

When you get back on the throttle in that lower RPM range on an inline 4, you're going to feel that lag. You have no power going to the wheels, so obviously it will take more throttle to get there and will be sluggish. Your mapping will help with smoothness of delivery, but you'll still have the lag, and I'd guess won't feel much improvement because of vagueness of throttle response. Also, getting back on it with higher RPM's is going to get that suspension to react quicker and get in the sweet spot.

 

For an example of how much smoother it is, and how much better control you have at higher RPM's, get in a big, empty parking lot and accelerate to 40 mph in 6th gear. It's an extreme, but crank the throttle. It's going to suck. You'll feel that exact same lag you're talking about. It won't be smooth or give you that planted feeling as much as if you hit 40 in 2nd gear then give the throttle a whack. It's the same thing that's happening in the corner. Think of the drive you're sacrificing as well. I'll bet your SV felt smoother than your R-6. That's because you had more power at the lower RPM's (torque).

 

I can't remember where in TOTW 2 it is, but it explains that when you roll onto the side of your tire you're essentially gearing up, so going in with max RPM's, you're going to fly into redline after you've gotten the bike onto the side of the tire. You can't be maxed out with the RPM's going in is what that boils down to.

 

My power kicks back in around 9,000 RPM's. I don't focus specifically on RPM's, but I'm guessing I'm over 7,000 RPM's when I'm getting back on the throttle most of the time. I don't pay attention because my plan is to match the speed to the corner and be in the right gear for that corner. Blipping with get your RPM's there.

 

Sorry. I tend to ramble.

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Top rank racers also tend to keep the engine speed above maximum torque when they get on the throttle because it greatly reduce the change of a high-sider, The riskiest point to hit the throttle is a couple of thousand revs below max torque, just as the engine starts to pick up its pants and run hard.

 

Or so I am told ;)

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You might check your idle speed also. On some bikes turning the idle up a bit can help smooth out that little delay when you roll back on the throttle, keeps the RPMs from falling off as far when you roll off. (This would be for racetrack use, you wouldn't have the idle turned up for street use.) On most bikes it is really easy to adjust.

 

Be cautious, though, because when you enter a corner at a higher idle you may come in faster than you expected, keep your pace slower until you get used to it.

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Quite a few things going on here. My first question is whether or not you blip...

 

Thanks for taking the time to explain. Actually I can't get to grips with blipping and braking together. I can do it separately but to be honest I don't blip much. Still learning.

 

 

On track I use the brakes to slow down, not too much engine braking.

 

I think this is what I'm doing at the moment: coming up to a corner I would brake hard until I'm nearing the turn point, clutch in, drop a gear or 2, clutch out (this is where I hear a bit of engine braking), release the brakes just before my turn point, let the bike settle a touch before tipping in, once leant over I'm back on the gas.

 

Braking, clutching, changing gears and blipping at the same time is not something I can do yet. I have tried on the road and track with scary results. I can't seem to keep the braking pressure smooth/constant while blipping. All my $10 is spent trying to blip and I need it for other things.

 

I will look into blipping more. My slipper clutch isn't great anyway, especially in the wet.

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It sound slike you've let the engine braking settle before turn-in, so although blipping on downchanges does smooth things a lot (very well worth getting the hang of, I can change down almost as fast as up now), it isn't the problem. That is, unless lumpy downchages are meaning to end up in the wrong gear for the corner.

 

So are you tipping in (steering input) with no throttle at all? Are you opening the throttle back up from zero while banked over a lot?

 

Re. the throttle slack, I know Cobie likes no slack and I'm the same, but really it's what feels good for you. i don't see adjusting it as a problem as long as you don't get anything like revs rising when you turn the bars etc. I'm not familiar with your setup but i would have thought that if it's got a cable from the twistgrip then the gubbins that make it work are on the other end, so adjusting cable slack at the bars in the usual way should be no problem. If it's got a throttle position sensor (I'm sur eit will) then I'd expect this to be on the throttle bodies (carbs on older bikes) on the pivot of the butterflies, not up at the bars, so that's out of the equation. The MOT is a pretty simple check remember, it's safer to have a bit of slack but here we're talking about advanced riding not some nobber who never checks their tyres, so don't worry about that too much.

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So are you tipping in (steering input) with no throttle at all? Are you opening the throttle back up from zero while banked over a lot?

 

 

Yes and yes in slow corners/hairpins, on faster corners I roll off a bit

 

 

Re. the throttle slack, I know Cobie likes no slack and I'm the same, but really it's what feels good for you.

 

Checked this with other R6ers and the Manual. Going to adjust it today.

 

Well, I just got the R6 dyno'd and remapped. What a difference! Smooooooooth biggrin.gif and around 2.5 extra horses

Hopefully now I can improve with that little extra smoothness.

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There are a few threads recently on here about when to get on the gas (trailing throttle instead of closed) during the first part of a bend, you should do a bit of a trawl and read up on the conversations. I'd say you should be picking the throttle up well before the apex (so you're not at huge lean angles) to prevent exactly the problem you're having, plus if it's closed you don't have any control of teh traction at both ends of the bike. I take it you mean in faster corners you don't close the throttle at all, you just back off a bit to adjust your speed then go in? I think I've got that wrong but can you clarify?

 

Glad the bike is feeling better, I haven't ridden an R6 but from talking to people and riding against them on track days, they're a bit flat bottom end, and remapping to richen them up makes them feel a load better.

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Quite a few things going on here. My first question is whether or not you blip...

 

I will look into blipping more. My slipper clutch isn't great anyway, especially in the wet.

 

I don't rely on mine (slipper--can still over rev the motor) in fact when you get the timing correct, you don't neven need to use the clutch. I had one student working on braking and downshifting (with blips) and found it easier to learn w/out the clutch.

 

CF

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  • 3 weeks later...

you could be a good candidate for a techtronics blipperbox, it's blips for you on downshifts just like on a superbike or motogp bike.

 

But taking out some throttle slack, keeping the revs higher and working on gradual downshifts (instead of all at once, which I think you do now) will having you enter turns faster, smoother and more safely.

 

Ronni

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