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Not Enough Throttle


Turtle
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I'm a LVL 4 grad and have spent this summer working on what I learned last year. I feel good about my lines, turn in, visual skills but I feel like I'm hesitant on the throttle.

I finish my breaking and turn in. Once the bike is turned I apply the throttle but I feel like maybe I'm not giving it enough. I originally thought it was the gearing so I went down one in the front which gave me better acceleration but it still feels like I should get more drive coming out. I think it's user error but I was wondering if there is a way (other than crashing) that I can improve in this area.

What I don't understand is how much is too much. How fast you can apply the throttle as you bring the bike up.

I know that's kinda vague...but it's all I got :)

 

Thanks

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Once the bike is turned I apply the throttle but I feel like maybe I'm not giving it enough. ... How fast you can apply the throttle as you bring the bike up?

 

S.N.E.

You didn't tell us if your venue for practicing is the street or the track but if it is the latter, I would recommend you pick one or two (unlinked) corners and try to increase your roll on incrementally on each successive lap. Acclimate to the increased pace you've accomplished and then see if you can take it up slightly again.

 

If it's the street, I would suggest forgetting about it. Too many variables to allow you the repetitions needed to make any real meaningful improvement IMHO.

 

Rain

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Maybe you are just so smooth that you don't FEEL fast. :rolleyes: How are your lap times?

 

My lap times at Summit for instance are improving slightly. 1:24 -1:23s consistantly. I know my accelleration or lack there of is what is keeping me from 1:20.

I am fairly smooth and often don't feel like Im going fast. Even though I keep pace with most people in my group.

I think gradually increasing the amount of throttle in successive laps should answer my question. I'm not overly concerned with lap times. I just feel that this is one of the things I need to work on to improve.

Along with eliminating coasting before turns....but that's a whole other topic :blink:

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I'm a LVL 4 grad and have spent this summer working on what I learned last year. I feel good about my lines, turn in, visual skills but I feel like I'm hesitant on the throttle.

I finish my breaking and turn in. Once the bike is turned I apply the throttle but I feel like maybe I'm not giving it enough. I originally thought it was the gearing so I went down one in the front which gave me better acceleration but it still feels like I should get more drive coming out. I think it's user error but I was wondering if there is a way (other than crashing) that I can improve in this area.

What I don't understand is how much is too much. How fast you can apply the throttle as you bring the bike up.

I know that's kinda vague...but it's all I got :)

 

Thanks

 

OK I have a bunch of questions, to get a better feel for what is happening right now...

 

What do you feel is the limiting factor NOW in your throttle application? Are you running wide, or worried about running wide? Are you letting the bike run out to the outside on turns, or are you holding a tight line? What is making you feel like you are not accelerating enough, are other riders passing you? If so, are the passing you IN the turn, or at the exit?

 

Also, what kind of bike are you riding? You mentioned you changed your gearing, and it helped - is the problem that you are hesitant in your roll-on, or that you do roll-on and you just don't get much GO from the bike? Is there opportunity to drop to a lower gear in some turns, so you are more in the power band? On some bikes that can make the throttle response more predictable (less lag), which can increase your confidence in your roll-on and the bike's handling.

 

What do you think might happen if you rolled on harder than you are now?

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OK I have a bunch of questions, to get a better feel for what is happening right now...

 

What do you feel is the limiting factor NOW in your throttle application? Are you running wide, or worried about running wide? Are you letting the bike run out to the outside on turns, or are you holding a tight line? What is making you feel like you are not accelerating enough, are other riders passing you? If so, are the passing you IN the turn, or at the exit?

 

Also, what kind of bike are you riding? You mentioned you changed your gearing, and it helped - is the problem that you are hesitant in your roll-on, or that you do roll-on and you just don't get much GO from the bike? Is there opportunity to drop to a lower gear in some turns, so you are more in the power band? On some bikes that can make the throttle response more predictable (less lag), which can increase your confidence in your roll-on and the bike's handling.

 

What do you think might happen if you rolled on harder than you are now?

 

To answer your questions:

I feel that the limiting factor is lack of knowledge of the limitations of how quickly you can apply throttle.

I hold tight lines and hit my markers on entry and exit. I do tend not to use all of the track on exit. I don't think I hesitate to roll on...I think that once I do I am not sure how quickly I can roll it. ( not sure if that makes sense) The bike as plenty of GO...I think I just need to get it going. I am not getting any slides from the rear end.but I am seeing some tearing in the tire from accelerating hard as the bike comes up.

Just FYI. I'm on an S1000RR with full race trim, Ohlins suspension,

 

I'm not sure what would happen. Could be one of many things....I could lose the rear end if I push it too fast. I could push myself wide on exit or I could get the desired result and get a stronger drive.

 

Here is a link to a video from a session a few weeks back. Perhaps you can here or see what I'm doing wrong. I am the one filming

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OK I have a bunch of questions, to get a better feel for what is happening right now...

 

What do you feel is the limiting factor NOW in your throttle application? Are you running wide, or worried about running wide? Are you letting the bike run out to the outside on turns, or are you holding a tight line? What is making you feel like you are not accelerating enough, are other riders passing you? If so, are the passing you IN the turn, or at the exit?

 

Also, what kind of bike are you riding? You mentioned you changed your gearing, and it helped - is the problem that you are hesitant in your roll-on, or that you do roll-on and you just don't get much GO from the bike? Is there opportunity to drop to a lower gear in some turns, so you are more in the power band? On some bikes that can make the throttle response more predictable (less lag), which can increase your confidence in your roll-on and the bike's handling.

 

What do you think might happen if you rolled on harder than you are now?

 

To answer your questions:

I feel that the limiting factor is lack of knowledge of the limitations of how quickly you can apply throttle.

I hold tight lines and hit my markers on entry and exit. I do tend not to use all of the track on exit. I don't think I hesitate to roll on...I think that once I do I am not sure how quickly I can roll it. ( not sure if that makes sense) The bike as plenty of GO...I think I just need to get it going. I am not getting any slides from the rear end.but I am seeing some tearing in the tire from accelerating hard as the bike comes up.

Just FYI. I'm on an S1000RR with full race trim, Ohlins suspension,

 

I'm not sure what would happen. Could be one of many things....I could lose the rear end if I push it too fast. I could push myself wide on exit or I could get the desired result and get a stronger drive.

 

Here is a link to a video from a session a few weeks back. Perhaps you can here or see what I'm doing wrong. I am the one filming

 

Well, it looks like have good throttle control, you get it turned, start your roll-on right away, and it is smooth and very progressive, and you are picking up the bike as you roll it on.

 

It looks to me like there are some places (not everywhere) where you have some room left on the exit. If you allowed the bike to run out a little farther, would that allow you to drive a bit harder?

 

Here are the questions that popped into my head, after watching the video:

1) at what RPM are you upshifting?

2) Do you have a quick-shifter on the bike, and if you do, are you rolling off when you upshift?

3) Did you change the exhaust system on the bike, and if so, what did you use?

4) Do you have the traction control on, and if so, what mode is it in?

5) Once you have the bike pointed in the right direction and the bike stood up, do you have the throttle open all the way to the stop?

 

I do think that Rainman's advice, and your acknowledgement of that, is right on the money - try incrementally adjusting your roll-on, preferably specifically in one-corner - but after watching and listening to the video I am wondering if there is also something else going on (other than your actual roll-on) that is inhibiting the power delivery.

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It looks to me like there are some places (not everywhere) where you have some room left on the exit. If you allowed the bike to run out a little farther, would that allow you to drive a bit harder?

 

Here are the questions that popped into my head, after watching the video:

1) at what RPM are you upshifting?

2) Do you have a quick-shifter on the bike, and if you do, are you rolling off when you upshift?

3) Did you change the exhaust system on the bike, and if so, what did you use?

4) Do you have the traction control on, and if so, what mode is it in?

5) Once you have the bike pointed in the right direction and the bike stood up, do you have the throttle open all the way to the stop?

 

I do think that Rainman's advice, and your acknowledgement of that, is right on the money - try incrementally adjusting your roll-on, preferably specifically in one-corner - but after watching and listening to the video I am wondering if there is also something else going on (other than your actual roll-on) that is inhibiting the power delivery.

 

Answers to questions:

1. I typically upshift at aroung11500 to 12000rpm

2. I do have a quick shifter and I do not let of the throttle at any time while shifting

3. I have a full arrow titanium exhaust

4. I run the bike in race mode.

5. I do not always open the bike to the stop. between turns 9-10, 10 to 1 and 3-4 sometimes. The rest I'm fairly certain I don't.

What else would you think is inhibiting power delivery. I honestly don't think it's the bike...I think it's the rider and the space between his ears :)

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It looks to me like there are some places (not everywhere) where you have some room left on the exit. If you allowed the bike to run out a little farther, would that allow you to drive a bit harder?

 

Here are the questions that popped into my head, after watching the video:

1) at what RPM are you upshifting?

2) Do you have a quick-shifter on the bike, and if you do, are you rolling off when you upshift?

3) Did you change the exhaust system on the bike, and if so, what did you use?

4) Do you have the traction control on, and if so, what mode is it in?

5) Once you have the bike pointed in the right direction and the bike stood up, do you have the throttle open all the way to the stop?

 

I do think that Rainman's advice, and your acknowledgement of that, is right on the money - try incrementally adjusting your roll-on, preferably specifically in one-corner - but after watching and listening to the video I am wondering if there is also something else going on (other than your actual roll-on) that is inhibiting the power delivery.

 

Answers to questions:

1. I typically upshift at aroung11500 to 12000rpm

2. I do have a quick shifter and I do not let of the throttle at any time while shifting

3. I have a full arrow titanium exhaust

4. I run the bike in race mode.

5. I do not always open the bike to the stop. between turns 9-10, 10 to 1 and 3-4 sometimes. The rest I'm fairly certain I don't.

What else would you think is inhibiting power delivery. I honestly don't think it's the bike...I think it's the rider and the space between his ears :)

 

For some reason when I was listening to the video it didn't really sound like the engine was winding up much, must have been something to do with the sound quality itself. So I was just checking to see if you happened to be running at a low RPM or short-shifting or in Rain mode or something. Maybe after work when I go home I'll try listening to it at a little higher volume. :)

Your answers all sound fine, can't think of anything else that would cause a problem with the power delivery, assuming the exhaust mapping is giving you good, manageable, smooth acceleration.

 

I'll be interested to hear what you find when you try Rainman's suggestion, and if you get a good result, what it was that changed things for you.

 

I will say that riding some lower horsepower bikes has given me a whole new appreciation for how much difference it can make if you roll on just a little more, a little earlier in the corner... but of course on that BMW you will want to make small changes, as there is PLENTY of horsepower to work with! :)

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Couple of observations (probably take em with a grain of salt):

 

Just going to focus on a couple of turns, the last turn onto the straight and the turn at the end of the straight.

1. Your drive onto the main straight looks awesome, throttle roll on consistent, smooth and certainly getting plenty of power.

 

2. Your entry into turn 1 (assumption) off the end of the long straight, I get the impression that you are charging the turn. Evidenced by extremely hard braking right at your turn in point. Thus overdoing it and then feeling like you need to get on the power sooner and harder. This is one point where I saw a few "faster" riders passing you on the exit here. Remember the no brakes drill?

 

3. Your line on the couple of laps where you weren't obstructed on the entry into the first turn was much tighter, turning in from about the middle of the road. I am not sure if this was for a reason, bumps on the outside, another rider etc but I feel if you can, maybe a wider line to open the turn up a bit more will allow a bit more corner speed and thus less need for crazy acceleration to catch up.

 

4. This is where I am totally out of my depth but you say you are running in race mode, best power, least interferance from TC. I have noted that a few guys on the forum are running in Sport mode (?) as they feel it is easier/more comfortable for various reasons. Could you not try running in a lower mode to start testing the limits of traction with the knowledge that you have the TC to help out? Once these lower modes are holding you back you can step it up? Not sure about this one, I ride carby bikes :lol:

 

Also how is your vision, i.e. 3 step, wide view? Maybe try and revisit these as well to help give you the confidence to get on the power a bit sooner and a bit harder?

 

Tell me to get out of your thread if I am pushing it in the wrong direction, just my observations.

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Couple of observations (probably take em with a grain of salt):

 

Just going to focus on a couple of turns, the last turn onto the straight and the turn at the end of the straight.

1. Your drive onto the main straight looks awesome, throttle roll on consistent, smooth and certainly getting plenty of power.

 

2. Your entry into turn 1 (assumption) off the end of the long straight, I get the impression that you are charging the turn. Evidenced by extremely hard braking right at your turn in point. Thus overdoing it and then feeling like you need to get on the power sooner and harder. This is one point where I saw a few "faster" riders passing you on the exit here. Remember the no brakes drill?

 

3. Your line on the couple of laps where you weren't obstructed on the entry into the first turn was much tighter, turning in from about the middle of the road. I am not sure if this was for a reason, bumps on the outside, another rider etc but I feel if you can, maybe a wider line to open the turn up a bit more will allow a bit more corner speed and thus less need for crazy acceleration to catch up.

 

4. This is where I am totally out of my depth but you say you are running in race mode, best power, least interferance from TC. I have noted that a few guys on the forum are running in Sport mode (?) as they feel it is easier/more comfortable for various reasons. Could you not try running in a lower mode to start testing the limits of traction with the knowledge that you have the TC to help out? Once these lower modes are holding you back you can step it up? Not sure about this one, I ride carby bikes :lol:

 

Also how is your vision, i.e. 3 step, wide view? Maybe try and revisit these as well to help give you the confidence to get on the power a bit sooner and a bit harder?

 

Tell me to get out of your thread if I am pushing it in the wrong direction, just my observations.

You aren't pushing me in the wrong direction and I appreciate your feedback. You nailed my feelings coming out of turn 10 to the straight. I feel like I'm shot out of a cannon coming out of there. My entry speed in 1 IS a problem and perhaps I can work on a better breaking point and entry speed to remedy that. Thanks for the observation.

In some parts of the track if you swing out too wide you get stuffed. I take a more defensive line going into turn 3 and 5 but a wider line would allow me to enter the turn a bit quicker.

As for the modes....I don't have an ego problem with the modes. :) I got to the point where I felt like the bike was not driving when I rolled on the throttle. Maybe due to the lean angle sensor. I may try reverting and see what it feels like. I'm going back out on Monday so I'll let ya know.

Again...Thanks for the feedback

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  • 5 months later...

Hey Slow-n-easy,

 

I was just looking over the forum and your comment about improving without crashing got my attention. Not sure if you were coming from the same sort of angle, but I used to think that the only way I could find the limit would be from crashing. Thankfully it's just not true and I've saved myself alot of pain and money!

 

Reading your posts it seems like you're just not sure of the maximum traction available from the rear tyre when you're exiting turns... would that be right? That's something I'm working on as well. Back when I had a GSX-R600 I remember that I could just open the throttle to the stop once the bike had come back up to a certain lean angle and it would feel like I was riding a sling-shot out of the turn (maybe it was only in a couple of turns where I was exiting a gear higher, but it still felt like I was coming out fast and there was a really noticeable 'sling-shot' type feeling!). But now on a 1000 I'm still trying to get that feeling again (if it is even possible on a 1000cc bike? Maybe not, since they sure have alot more power than a 600!)

 

But one thing that has helped me to find the limits of traction is to keep pushing slowly, opening the throttle a bit sooner, then a bit harder, all the while looking for a 'sign' from the tyres that they're nearing maximum traction. There's no rhyme or reason in adding more throttle if you don't know the end result you're looking for. And no, the result we're looking for isn't just to 'go faster', but to use maximum available traction. If you're taking it easy and making small steps in adding throttle then the tyres and bike will tell you when you're nearing max traction - you may get a little spin/slip/slide from the tyres or the bike might buck & weave a little. Even if you do slide a little, it still may not be the case that you've achieved maximum traction since it usually isn't that sudden (especially if you're making gradual controlled throttle inputs). Remember that there is a gradual transition from static friction to sliding friction, if you have a bit of a slide it's probably not accurate to think "oh no, I nearly crashed!". If you have a little slide, you're really just starting to enter that sliding friction zone. So thinking about finding that limit - if the tyre isn't sliding, then you can add more throttle. Simple!

 

I know it seems kinda simple to say that if the tire isn't sliding then you can add more throttle. Well, duh. tongue.gif But the thing is - there is no real 'answer' to the question of how much throttle you can use, there are a million factors that influence available traction. But if you are able to find that place between the transition from static to sliding then you'll be able to answer the question for yourself on any turn, any bike, and using any type of tyres.

 

One final thing - I found it helpful to prepare myself mentally before trying to find that limit. Now every session I go out I fully expect to slide (even if it's just a little), and I keep drilling into my head not to chop the throttle, which of course is a very important point if you're sliding.* If you are expecting to slide, you'll be able to be much better prepared to handle it. It's not likely that something can frighten you or catch you off guard if you're expecting it. wink.gif

 

Anyway, that's my thoughts on the subject of finding the limits of traction. I know this is a bit of an old thread - maybe you've come to a better understanding of that original question by now? All the better! I'm interested to hear how you've progressed with that.

 

* A kinda funny side story: I had just starting to ride my mountain bike more, and was riding along the street and crossed a driveway to get onto the footpath. The front wheel had gone over a little bump and left the ground for a second or so, problem was that I was in a slight turn at the time. Funny thing is that I reverted straight back to old motorcycling habits, and since it felt just like a little front end slide I actually thought to myself "no problem, it'll grip up again soon." Which would have been true on a motorcycle. So I just stayed completely relaxed and didn't make a move at all. Of course I went down - and I was initially surprised that the front hadn't hooked up, then I remembered that the MTB doesn't work quite the same - and I remembered the right thing to do would have been to put my foot down and ride out of it. tongue.gif It's funny how the mind works when you've worked so hard to drill in a certain behaviour. On the plus side I was barely grazed thanks to being so relaxed when I fell, I was expecting a good rashing from that one.

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Slow n easy

You might consider asking Hotfoot about her Moriwaki and cornerspeed to reinforce Muggets comments o driveout spin/slide n MATraction

Also u might read Twist about matching tyres ( Dunlop K81 ) to skill level as a way to discover frontiers sooner than otherwise.

Gus

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Mugget

Re yer MTB (mountain bike ) tankslapper approximation:

Went MTB last Saturday thru premier Appalachian downhill rockgardens here:

 

Experimented with hovering hands over bars and knees-as-stressed member while rocketing over sawtooth rock declines -- very fun and bore out the doctrine in letting the bike do the right thing -- like Soft Seat in horseback.

 

Surprised to not see more traffic here on MTB so would look forward to your insights viz MTB and Moto.

Gus

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