Human Factors N Flight Simulation

[gogogusgus]

Hey All

 

Mugget's post on Moto response to his mountainbike tankslapper-type event gave me pause to wonder about Human Factors Engineering.

 

Sometimes when I'm tooling around in my Honda Element, I think about and sometimes try Twist stuff like Wide View, Reference Points, E.S.C throttle control and Weight Transfer.

 

I worry about worlds colliding -- to confuse the Street/Element environment with the Track/Moto one on my next visit to Willow.

 

For example, am I likely to confuse my reaction to drifting or sliding the Element with the same on the track?

 

Anyone else ever wonder about this?

 

Anyone think about drills and Twist stuff while driving their car?

 

Gus

http://aviationpilot...man_factors.pdf

[warregl]

Hey Gus,

 

I'm with you on this. I find myself "practicing" many CSS drills in my car. Some are more obviously useful in both (it's hard to think that wideview would not be useful in the car) but just this weekend I was wondering about the application of throttle control in my car (as I exited a nice declining radius exit ramp at a spirited pace). In fact, I have considered taking a driving school to answer the very question you ask - do the worlds collide or is it more a case of where they diverge?

 

Of course that's just what I need, another petrol driven addiction…

 

Best,

 

Carey

[gogogusgus]

Does drifting my Honda Element on the way to the 0530 spin class count?

[R1James]

Hey Gus,

 

I'm with you on this. I find myself "practicing" many CSS drills in my car. Some are more obviously useful in both (it's hard to think that wideview would not be useful in the car) but just this weekend I was wondering about the application of throttle control in my car (as I exited a nice declining radius exit ramp at a spirited pace). In fact, I have considered taking a driving school to answer the very question you ask - do the worlds collide or is it more a case of where they diverge?

 

Of course that's just what I need, another petrol driven addiction…

 

Best,

 

Carey

 

Yes it absolutely does mate...In a race car the techniques the same...eliminate coasting into corners...find a reference point.... Brake - Turn - then Throttle on as soon as the initial turn in-put is complete... as you want to shift the weight of the car to the back wheels for maximum drive and grip exiting a corner...just like on the bike....and of course wide view, You don't want tunnel vision in a race car either...

Actually I was taught throttle control in a car years before I rode a bike on the track...even though I've been riding all my life. It blew me away when I did level 1 at CSS and discovered that most of your bike control comes from the throttle. If I had of joined the two together all those years ago I may have been a professional racer by now!...I well just wasn't meant to be

[gogogusgus]

eliminate coasting into corners...

as you want to shift the weight of the car to the back wheels for maximum drive and grip exiting a corner

R1James

Thanks, Mate.

Similarly, Lotus Elise buddy Sam took me out on Summit Point Shenandoah "you never lift in a corner." He's buying me a 10.5% beer tonight.

As I drive my Element this winter, I've started throttle up on railroad track dips and I-95 sideways tarmac seams * I used to do the opposite on my R1100S. Feels better now. Dunno if that's relevant to this post, but there you have it

Ago

* en route the dogpark

[gogogusgus]

66 yankee degrees up here ... sweltering ... so the Itty Bitty Ninja to work

 

After a couple months of just drifting just The Element, I had to refactor my senses, most noticeably on a DRadius offramp.

 

Anybody have any training in Human Factors?

 

Ago

[mugget]

Personally I don't think that you will really 'get confused' if you mix practising in a car and practising on your bike. For example I have a Gixxer 1000, XR400 motard, and at my previous place of work I used to do deliveries on a 50cc 2T scooter. Each of those are worlds, apart - right? But I was able to just switch between them with no problems at all. It's like they say - you never forget how to ride a bike. Even 3 different bikes.

 

Although there was one time I was in the car and thought about splitting past another couple of cars to get to the front of the queue at a set of lights, but that was probably more a case of wishful thinking, my mind was suffering with the traffic congestion!

 

Actually thinking about playing around in cars and drifting around a bit, it's probably a good thing to help get the feeling of traction? Not really the same feeling as on a bike, but the same type of feeling at the tyres. I can just imagine someone who never gets their car out of shape having a real hard time dealing with small slides on a bike. But someone who knows they can break traction in a car and it's not the end of the world will probably more easily accept the same on a bike.

 

Not sure what you mean by 'human factors training' though? (I guess that means no, I don't have any training?)

[gogogusgus]

Although there was one time I was in the car and thought about splitting past another couple of cars to get to the front of the queue at a set of lights, but that was probably more a case of wishful thinking, my mind was suffering with the traffic congestion!

A-Ha! I aver sir, that you are proof of the rule, no matter the flimsy rationalization presented above.

 

Not sure what you mean by 'human factors training' though?

HFT is pretty cool and totally relevant here -- but not to be confused with HST.

Ago

[mugget]

Ahhh... okay I got it now.

 

In that example of me driving the car, at the time I was riding nearly 100% of the time - commuting every day, riding while I was doing deliveries for work, riding on weekends, I didn't drive a car very often at all. Honestly I really did think about just zipping up between the cars, but as I approached the cars and began to slow I thought "Oh ###### - I'm in a car!!" I didn't actually make a move - that would have been really scary!

 

Now that I think about it I do drive a bit differently in the car, like looking further through the corner and getting on the accelerator earlier - makes a difference!

 

So what is the trick to not trying to filter your car through heavy traffic? Just not going into 'automatic mode' and driving according to habits, pay more attention?

[gogogusgus]

Then training so one does the correct thing when/if something does happen.

One can train some of the visual skills used in

Level 2 IN THE CAR TAKING ONE'S DAUGHTER TO SCHOOL!

Cobie

 

I'm all for homework Seems to me though there's a caveat that might be well-had in all this, for example:

 

" ... in the early days of retractable landing gear, pilots often grabbed the wrong lever and mistakenly raised the landing gear instead of the flaps. Sensory overload also became a problem, especially in cockpit design. "

What say you?

 

Ago

[Cobie Fair]

Ago,

 

Not sure I undertand the question, want to clarify please?

 

CF

[gogogusgus]

Not sure I undertand the question, want to clarify please?

What are your observations / anecdotes about somebody doing something totally inappropriate in a track situation?

 

For example:

1. Say I try the 3-Step Drill in my Honda Element. I might push it a little harder -- perhaps subconsciously -- knowing I've got four contact patches and airbags.
2. Bankers might underwrite risky loans, knowing they can sell them to Sallie Mae -- moral hazard
3. Say I spent the off-season dirt-biking or SuperMoto. I get to Willow and try to corner with my leg out, or cook it hot figuring I've got more slide than I really can afford
4. My brother-from-another-mother, One-Ear Jonny, buys an airplane. He puts Pilot A into it, well, after training him. Pilot A does 3 days of Simulator training while Jonny's flying the bird to the UK from San Antonio. One-Ear Jonny doesn't want Pilot A to confuse the simulator environment with the real thing so he says to Pilot A:

"No way you're flying my bird today. Cool your heels for 3 days then come back and see me."

So after a winter of taking my daughter to school in the Honda Odyssey, I find myself back at Willow #3 through #6 and think

 

"Oh, I've got 4 contact patches and airbags"

and a bad thing happens.

 

Does this help at all?

 

Ago

 

See also, Mugget's mountain biking side story to Slow-N-Easy

[Hotfoot]

Not sure I undertand the question, want to clarify please?

What are your observations / anecdotes about somebody doing something totally inappropriate in a track situation?

 

For example:

1. Say I try the 3-Step Drill in my Honda Element. I might push it a little harder -- perhaps subconsciously -- knowing I've got four contact patches and airbags.
2. Bankers might underwrite risky loans, knowing they can sell them to Sallie Mae -- moral hazard
3. Say I spent the off-season dirt-biking or SuperMoto. I get to Willow and try to corner with my leg out, or cook it hot figuring I've got more slide than I really can afford
4. My brother from another mother buys airplanes. Then he puts pilots into them, well, after training them. Pilot A does 3 days of Simulator training while Jonny's flying the bird to the UK from San Antonio. Jonny doesn't want Pilot A to confuse the simulator environment with the real thing so he says to Pilot A:

"No way you're flying my bird today. Cool your heels for 3 days then come back and see me."

So after a winter of taking my daughter to school in the Honda Odyssey, I find myself back at Willow #3 through #6 and think

"Oh, I've got 4 contact patches and airbags"

and a bad thing happens.

 

Does this help at all?

 

Ago

 

See also, Mugget's mountain biking side story to Slow-N-Easy

 

 

This is still hard to follow, but I think I know what you are getting at.

(I know this question was directed at Cobie, but I found it interesting so I'm going to jump in anyway, hope you don't mind.)

 

It sounds to me like you are asking whether you might attempt to use a technique that works in your car, WHILE you are on the motorcycle, basically out of habit (or because of some similarity in environment, etc.), and whether that could create a bad result.

 

My take on it is this: to make that error you'd pretty much have to be confusing where you ARE and what you are DOING with some OTHER place / time, or situation. If you are "in the moment" and fully aware of your surroundings, you would be less likely to make an error of that sort.

 

Of course if you were fatigued or distracted, the likelihood of losing focus, going on "autopilot" and making an error due to inattention (like shifting the wrong way because you normally ride a GP bike) would increase quite a bit!

 

Thinking about other things can cause distraction, spending attention that ought to be allocated to monitoring traction, speed, etc. - for example, if a student rides around worrying about a hundred things ("is my coach behind me right now?" "Am I riding too slow?" "Why am I getting passed so much?""Does my ass look fat in these leathers?", etc.) this can consume so much attention that you have to leave other thought processes on "automatic" which may not work out!

 

So I guess the advice to combat this concern would be: come to school well fed, well rested, and focus on the drills without trying to solve all the world's problems in your head at the same time.

[gogogusgus]

1. "is my coach behind me right now?"
2. "Am I riding too slow?"
3. "Why am I getting passed so much?
4. ""Does my ass look fat in these leathers?"

Hotfoot! you got me laughing in my cube with #4 ... and hit close-to-home with 1,2 and 3 ... well done

 

Ago

[Cobie Fair]

Hotfoot covered it pretty well.

 

One could look at it this way: using other situations to train a skill, to get some extra practice. One could work on quick turning on the street, but realizing tires are rarely warm enough to work correctly, not quick turn to a severe lean angle.

 

Or, practicing the 2-step while driving a car. Just more practice.

[Hotfoot]

1. "is my coach behind me right now?"
2. "Am I riding too slow?"
3. "Why am I getting passed so much?
4. ""Does my ass look fat in these leathers?"

Hotfoot! you got me laughing in my cube with #4 ... and hit close-to-home with 1,2 and 3 ... well done

 

Ago

 

 

Hee hee - I had others but didn't want to make TOO long a list!

 

So...um... why the changes in signatures? Don't want to be Gus anymore, decided to switch personalities?

[chipset]

I was thinking about this today.

 

It's all about perception. When driving my car, I am looking for reference points, etc. Because I am in the car, even at speed, I have far fewer SRs.

 

Then while flying tonight, I was thinking about the other element, which is the perception of speed. We've all been there. Coming into a corner too fast and the feeling of panic. And how the goal of the training is to get consistent around doing things in certain operations.

 

And that's when I started thinking about pilots and the training they go through. As the plane banked into Nashville airport tonight, I could see the airport in the distance, but it wasn't as far away as I expected. I wasn't flying the 737, but noticing the similarities between what the pilots do and we as corner carvers.

 

The airplane is traveling between 400-500 knots per hour. In most cases, their visibility is measured in miles and they can see nearly anything in front of them. They don't have to worry to much about curves, per se, but they definitely work within a 3-dimensional realm greater than ours.

 

And what do they do?

 

The lower the flaps and adjust speed. This is similar to our braking.

 

During final approach, they put down the landing gear. They are doing this long before you land. Again, much like we might position our bodies for a turn.

 

As they are about to land, they pull up on the nose and add thrust. This is essentially us making the turn and adjusting throttle.

 

But notice how airplane pilots are very similar to a good motorcycle rider? The take off is smooth, the operations consistent and the landing doesn't leave fillings rattling in your mouth.

 

The big difference is the amount of training. As a pilot, you train and train. Simulators can create all sorts of conditions. I have yet to see a motorcycle simulator cause the same kind of SRs you get in real life. So the best we can do is try to overcome our senses by doing. For many, this means track time, for fewer it means formal training. Pilots are trained the take their body's senses out of the equation and trust the instruments. For us, it's about training our bodies not to panic.