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How The Entering Speed For Each Turn Is Found?


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I have finished reading Twist of the Wrist II, hoping to find an answer to this question, but either I missed it or is something obvious.

 

Please cornering masters and more experienced riders, correct or comment on my two following assumptions:

 

 

1) I imagine that for a track, the rider is approaching the limits of traction for each turn, memorizing the maximum entering speed for each turn and observing the speedometer for each entering point.

 

2) For street riding, each new unfamiliar turn is to be entered at the speed that experience dictates for similar conditions.

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I have finished reading Twist of the Wrist II, hoping to find an answer to this question, but either I missed it or is something obvious.

 

Please cornering masters and more experienced riders, correct or comment on my two following assumptions:

 

 

1) I imagine that for a track, the rider is approaching the limits of traction for each turn, memorizing the maximum entering speed for each turn and observing the speedometer for each entering point.

 

2) For street riding, each new unfamiliar turn is to be entered at the speed that experience dictates for similar conditions.

 

 

 

 

1) I have no idea, having no track day experience

 

 

2) A rule of the thumb will be under the speed limit (I usually do -15 on unfamiliar roads , -5 to 10 on familiar roads for legal and safety reasons) :)

 

 

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On a track, you generally do not have time to read instruments, I reckon - you're too busy trying to hit your markers and keep the bike where you want it. Instead, most riders will have brake markers that they will move back until they either overshoot or fail to hit the apex.

 

Regarding road riding, I can only speak for myself. I just know where to brake in order to just use all available cornering clearance for lower speed corners. Which used to be my primary goal. Now I leave more margin for sand, bumps and whatever. Fast corners can rarely be taken at the bike's limit on the road.

 

I believe the best way you can train your ability to judge entrance speed is to follow Keith Code's no-brake-drill where you only use the throttle to set your speed and stay off the brakes as much as possible. Every time you need the brakes you've "failed". With practice you can become pretty good.

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This topic could easily generate a lot of discussion, since there are so many variables that affect what can be considered a safe yet fast corner entry speed, be it on the track or street.

 

On the track:

 

For me, one thing is for sure: as my skill (and therefore confidence) level increased, my speed was soon to follow, almost naturally. I have no idea how fast I'm going, but I do know that I am comfortable cornering the bike at speeds that I never thought I'd be doing a few years ago. The repetition alone at a track helps tremendously in the learning and development of a consistent "feel" for speed.

 

At CSS, you are specifically coached NOT to look at your speedometer (they tape over it :o ); it is your vision that tells you if you are entering at an appropriate speed or not.

 

I could go on and on, but have to leave work now... B)

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Thanks to all.

 

I have been a street rider for long time; hence, I have a better idea for the street.

Just by observing speed limits, the safety margin is huge.

 

However, for track day (here in Florida), the Novice class was told just to follow the control riders, who were increasing the entering speed for each lap during the day.

I just wondered, what references they followed to select an entering speed for each turn, since that was never explained to us.

 

Reference points were explained and understood, but I felt completely lost about entering speeds.

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I had a similar experience at my first track day. The control rider started picking up the pace and eventually I got to the point where I was uncomfortable with the corner entry speeds, because I had no idea whatsoever what the proper techniques were, the proper body position, where to look, how to control the throttle, etc. The only thing they focused on was following "the line". Which I sort of get, because you want to be predictable on a track with novice riders, but at the same time, you can't just go faster by going faster :D .

 

Interestingly, one of the challenges for me now is figuring out how much faster can I go. This is where excellent technique, repetition, and baby steps come into play I suppose B) .

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BLSJDS makes great points. :)

 

Let me ask you some questions, to help you sort through this:

1) Is there one ideal entry speed for each turn, that will work for every rider, on any type of bike? Or is entry speed an individual thing, dependent on your bike, setup, skill level, the day's conditions, etc.?

2) Have you ever entered a turn at a speed that triggered one or more of the survival reactions listed on page 3 of A Twist of the Wrist II?

3) If you wanted to enter a turn faster (at the track, where you get to ride that turn repeatedly), would you want to make BIG increases on each lap or small, incremental ones, as you experiment with it?

4) Could looking down at the speedometer when entering a turn interrupt your visual flow? How would that affect your sense of speed, and your comfort level entering the turn? Have you ever been looking down at the dash of your car (or at your phone!) and then looked up to see a car stopped in front of you? Did that momentarily mess up your perception of how fast you were approaching that car?

5) if you DID enter a turn slightly (not dramatically) too fast, are there any indicators that could tell you that your entry speed was too high?

6) Would greater confidence about where the bike is going to go, and in your ability to steer it effectively, help you increase your entry speeds?

 

Regarding how control riders judge entry speeds while leading, I'll hazard a guess that they probably start at a speed that they believe is comfortable for any street rider, and then very gradually increase the speed until riders start to drop back a bit or their riding starts to look ragged (running wide, over braking, late on the throttle, etc.) I've definitely seen control riders at track days lead riders too fast on sighting laps.

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BLSJDS makes great points. :)

 

Let me ask you some questions, to help you sort through this:

1) Is there one ideal entry speed for each turn, that will work for every rider, on any type of bike? Or is entry speed an individual thing, dependent on your bike, setup, skill level, the day's conditions, etc.?

2) Have you ever entered a turn at a speed that triggered one or more of the survival reactions listed on page 3 of A Twist of the Wrist II?

3) If you wanted to enter a turn faster (at the track, where you get to ride that turn repeatedly), would you want to make BIG increases on each lap or small, incremental ones, as you experiment with it?

4) Could looking down at the speedometer when entering a turn interrupt your visual flow? How would that affect your sense of speed, and your comfort level entering the turn? Have you ever been looking down at the dash of your car (or at your phone!) and then looked up to see a car stopped in front of you? Did that momentarily mess up your perception of how fast you were approaching that car?

5) if you DID enter a turn slightly (not dramatically) too fast, are there any indicators that could tell you that your entry speed was too high?

6) Would greater confidence about where the bike is going to go, and in your ability to steer it effectively, help you increase your entry speeds?

 

Regarding how control riders judge entry speeds while leading, I'll hazard a guess that they probably start at a speed that they believe is comfortable for any street rider, and then very gradually increase the speed until riders start to drop back a bit or their riding starts to look ragged (running wide, over braking, late on the throttle, etc.) I've definitely seen control riders at track days lead riders too fast on sighting laps.

my guesstimates :P

 

 

1) it depends , especially when cornering big/small corners with bikes that have longer or shorter wheelbases. short wheelbase + short corner = you can go in much faster than a bigger bike with a longer wheelbase (turning radius)

 

2) of course :) , but where you make a mistake, if you overcome it, u'll improve

 

3) i take small chunks (but I currently only ride on public roads, so...)

 

4) yup.0.2-0.5 S of distraction takes a toll on my 10 bucks of attention/ mental capacity during a very critical cornering phase

 

5)hmm... much harder handlebars due to gyroscopic forces, not able to tap on the gas ASAP , a different line (visual markers are in a different position indicating a different line) , shakier/slightly more unstable bike due to suspension not so complying.

 

6) yes , right until i hit my bike's hardware bottlenecks (scraping pegs/parts,back sus/tire starts squirming slightly ,)

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Thanks, Hotfoot.

 

Let me ask you some questions, to help you sort through this:

1) Is there one ideal entry speed for each turn, that will work for every rider, on any type of bike? Or is entry speed an individual thing, dependent on your bike, setup, skill level, the day's conditions, etc.?

No, each case is different, unless all conditions are very similar, like in a high performance race. However, I believe that there is a physical limit that can be seen those racers hit.

 

2) Have you ever entered a turn at a speed that triggered one or more of the survival reactions listed on page 3 of A Twist of the Wrist II?

Certainly.

 

3) If you wanted to enter a turn faster (at the track, where you get to ride that turn repeatedly), would you want to make BIG increases on each lap or small, incremental ones, as you experiment with it?

Small, incremental ones. However, without looking to the speedometer, I believe that I wouldn't be able to do it in a stable increment, since small increments would be hard to feel.

 

4) Could looking down at the speedometer when entering a turn interrupt your visual flow? How would that affect your sense of speed, and your comfort level entering the turn? Have you ever been looking down at the dash of your car (or at your phone!) and then looked up to see a car stopped in front of you? Did that momentarily mess up your perception of how fast you were approaching that car?

Yes to all.

 

5) if you DID enter a turn slightly (not dramatically) too fast, are there any indicators that could tell you that your entry speed was too high?

If subjectively too fast (actually doable but not according to my previous experiences), SR's will be triggered.

If actually too fast and I do commit to the turn using correct techniques, tires will start skidding.

 

6) Would greater confidence about where the bike is going to go, and in your ability to steer it effectively, help you increase your entry speeds?

Yes.

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Ok, good answers. First let me correct a possible misconception, based on your first post: I don't think it is realistic to think that racers find the traction limit, look at the speedo, then memorize the perfect entry speed. For one thing, I ride a purpose-built race bike, and it doesn't HAVE a speedo, and was never designed to have one. :) And, as someone else said before, looking down at the instruments at turn entry is not practical, it interrupts your visual flow and you would be forced to slow down considerably to accomplish it. Also conditions change, lap to lap - my tires may have considerably less grip at the end of a race compared to the beginning, or a competitor may have forced me to use a different turn point - which means a different entry speed.

 

Judging entry speed is an art, your question is quite broad, so let's see if we can narrow it down, to see what problem you are trying to solve, or what barrier you are encountering:

1) if you just look where you are going and ride the turn based on your own sense of speed (without looking at the speedo), what happens? Do you make errors, trigger SRs, feel like you could / should have gone faster?

2) if you make errors (running wide, making more than one steering input, sliding a tire, etc.) what specifically are they?

3) if you trigger an SR, which one is it? (There can be more than one!) You can find a list of SRs, and resultant errors, on p3 of Twist II.

4) are you comfortable and riding without errors, but just want to increase entry speed?

5) are you concerned about your ability to judge entry speed, feel like you are not precise, consistent or accurate?

 

I'm trying to get a handle on what specifically is causing the uncertainty about entry speed, because it is something you need to be able to choose for yourself, on every turn you ride. If it is something NOT covered in the questions above, just let me know.

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Thank you very much, Hotfoot; my misconception is perfectly clear now.

Sorry, it is hard for me to explain things in clear manner in English.

 

I believe that your #5 question is the one.

 

I only had one track day in the Novice group in Florida (not CSS); therefore, I am very ignorant about how picking an efficient entering speed is done for racing and more advanced track day's groups.

The control riders made that selection for our group, and I felt comfortable and SR's free during the day.

 

One thing did bother me at the end of that day: without the control riders, I would have been completely lost about how fast should I be rolling just before releasing the brake and flicking the bike.

That was the main reason of my first post: I didn't know what was the proper technique to judge and reach an efficient and consistent speed for a particular turn under track conditions.

 

Normally I don't make mistakes that trigger any SR while riding on the street, mainly because I have many years of experience judging street entering speeds and because the bike is moving far from its physic limits there.

However, on a track, I will sure go in either too slow or too fast.

 

Reading braking techniques in Code's book, I learned that initial hard braking allows the rider to fine adjust the entering speed.

This speed is something precise and critical, I thought: a little low or a little high must be bad for the optimum track turn over a selected line.

That is what made me wrongly assume that the rider would rely on some speed indicator for that level of precision.

 

Thanks to everyone's responses, now I understand that the principle is the same than for street riding: practice, practice and more practice.

Quoting Hotfoot: "Judging entry speed is an art....... it is something you need to be able to choose for yourself, on every turn you ride."

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I hope nobody minds me jumping in. I was going to start a new thread when I spotted this one.

 

I attended level 1 at Silverstone in April and completed all the drills to the satisfaction of my coach. Since then I've been trying to apply them when I ride on the road (I don't do track and have no desire to). However, I have an issue with trying to apply TC#1.

 

When approaching unfamiliar turns (which most are since I can't memorise the Yorkshire Dales and Yorkshire Moors!) I try and select a turn point. These being Yorkshire's finest twisty roads you can usually be certain that when I get to the turn point I can't see enough of the bend to be sure it doesn't tighten, so I push the turn point further into the bend and maintain an outside position following the curve (which is sometimes tight enough itself, even before the quick turn). Quite often I find that as soon as I can see enough of the bend to be sure it doesn't tighten there's no point picking a TP and Apex RP, nor doing a quick turn as the bend is almost over.

 

It's like my mind sees every bend as a 90 degree bend on approach, but then once I'm in it I find I'm on the way out before I realise it wasn't, and am therefore going much slower than necessary. This doesn't happen on bends that I can see on approach (e.g. looking over fields, hedgerows, to the upward side of the hill I'm going down etc).

 

Does anyone have any ideas or drills?

 

 

Thanks

Dae.

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My tactic used to be to enter the blind, unfamiliar corners as were they much easier to ride than they appeared - which they used to be. If they were tighter than anticipated - or even tightening - I either stayed on the brakes longer (even all the way through to the exit if required) or went back on the brake well inside the corner if it took me too long to realize that the corner was much sharper than I expected.

 

These days I try to avoid this sort of riding since it's not the most sensible approach. Still, going in fairly deep in a position that allows you to see as far as possible through the corner and sit on the brakes a bit until you know where the road goes and where to turn in followed by a quick flick steering input should work pretty effectively with minimal risk in my experience.

 

 

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On the subject of some drills that could even be tried on the street - the no-brakes drill that Eirik mentioned is a great one I think. As it was put when I did Level 1 - if you can't set your speed in 300m with no brakes, you have no hope of doing it in 100m with brakes. That's not to say that you should be trying to charge into corners faster and faster with no brakes, but you may know some corners and a speed that you're comfortable with - so you could simply ride those corners trying not to use brakes, just using the throttle to set your speed.

 

That's one of the main differences between an average rider and the world's top racers - they have a very finely developed sense of speed and timing. Steve Brouggy (CSS Australia) mentioned a really interesting point to the Level 1 class. He has analysed Casey Stoners laps at Phillip Island and there were a bunch of laps mid-race where his laptime/speed had less than 1% variance (I don't remember the exact figures). That's pretty amazing - a distance of 4.4km with 12 corners, and less than 1% speed variance for 10, 12 or more laps. Just goes to show how important a good sense of speed is.

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On the subject of some drills that could even be tried on the street - the no-brakes drill that Eirik mentioned is a great one I think. As it was put when I did Level 1 - if you can't set your speed in 300m with no brakes, you have no hope of doing it in 100m with brakes. That's not to say that you should be trying to charge into corners faster and faster with no brakes, but you may know some corners and a speed that you're comfortable with - so you could simply ride those corners trying not to use brakes, just using the throttle to set your speed.

 

That's one of the main differences between an average rider and the world's top racers - they have a very finely developed sense of speed and timing. Steve Brouggy (CSS Australia) mentioned a really interesting point to the Level 1 class. He has analysed Casey Stoners laps at Phillip Island and there were a bunch of laps mid-race where his laptime/speed had less than 1% variance (I don't remember the exact figures). That's pretty amazing - a distance of 4.4km with 12 corners, and less than 1% speed variance for 10, 12 or more laps. Just goes to show how important a good sense of speed is.

 

No brakes is how I do, and always have, ride. I think it stems from always planning ahead and was reinforced when I passed my IAM test. The main issue I have is that I tend to think that a corner is tighter than it really is and consequently arrive at the bend going too slow. As I mentioned earlier, if I can see the whole bend (over fields etc) then I'm OK. It's bends where I can't see all the way through on approach that tends to cause me issues. I realise that it's always better to be in too slow than too hot and am not wanting to achieve ridiculous speeds. I just was more appropriate speeds if that makes sense.

 

I'm sure I've mentioned previously, but I'll mention again just in case: When I did the IAM we used the vanishing point. Unfortunately this doesn't tend to fit well with me as you are chasing a moving target, rather than having a defined turn point. I feel that "chasing the VP" tends to encourage lazy steering. I normally stay on the outside and turn when I can see the exit, giving a more definite single turn per curve. Unfortunately what I'm finding with increasing frequency is that by the time I can see the exit and turn point the turn is almost over and there's not much turning to be done.

 

I was going to start a thread surrounding post school/between school drills that road riders can do. Whilst doing the school was great, it would be nice if there were some drills that I could do to maintain/hone my new found skills until I can get to do level 2 (which is realistically going to be next year). I'm sure there are many people in a similar situation where the time between schools is quite long due to time, cost, location etc and we'd all benefit with a way to make sure we don't lose the skills between courses.

 

 

Dae.

 

 

 

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Okay, so you've done Level 1? Do you still have your booklet/drill sheet? Or more importantly, did you fill in the blanks while in the classroom sessions? Those five drills are all things that you can practice any time you're riding. Street, track, dirt biking, you name it. Keep working on those 5 Level 1 drills and you'll be well prepared for when you get a chance for Level 2.

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Okay, so you've done Level 1? Do you still have your booklet/drill sheet? Or more importantly, did you fill in the blanks while in the classroom sessions? Those five drills are all things that you can practice any time you're riding. Street, track, dirt biking, you name it. Keep working on those 5 Level 1 drills and you'll be well prepared for when you get a chance for Level 2.

 

We didn't do any fill in the blanks in the classroom sessions. The thing that I struggle with is it's easy when you do level 1 as there's a big X on the track, whereas it's much harder on the street knowing where to put the X for yourself. I always practice TC#1 (and did before doing level 1 as I read TOTW when I started riding). Not knowing where to put the X makes it hard to do the 2 step since I'm missing step 1. I always try and keep rider input to a minimum - to the point that my thighs were killing me when I went out at the weekend from gripping the tank so much.

 

I don't have a drill sheet or booklet from level 1.

 

 

Dae.

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I hope nobody minds me jumping in. I was going to start a new thread when I spotted this one.

 

I attended level 1 at Silverstone in April and completed all the drills to the satisfaction of my coach. Since then I've been trying to apply them when I ride on the road (I don't do track and have no desire to). However, I have an issue with trying to apply TC#1.

 

When approaching unfamiliar turns (which most are since I can't memorise the Yorkshire Dales and Yorkshire Moors!) I try and select a turn point. These being Yorkshire's finest twisty roads you can usually be certain that when I get to the turn point I can't see enough of the bend to be sure it doesn't tighten, so I push the turn point further into the bend and maintain an outside position following the curve (which is sometimes tight enough itself, even before the quick turn). Quite often I find that as soon as I can see enough of the bend to be sure it doesn't tighten there's no point picking a TP and Apex RP, nor doing a quick turn as the bend is almost over.

 

It's like my mind sees every bend as a 90 degree bend on approach, but then once I'm in it I find I'm on the way out before I realise it wasn't, and am therefore going much slower than necessary. This doesn't happen on bends that I can see on approach (e.g. looking over fields, hedgerows, to the upward side of the hill I'm going down etc).

 

Does anyone have any ideas or drills?

 

 

Thanks

Dae.

 

Maybe you are being too hard on yourself. :) Realistically, do you think it is possible, or safe, to really judge turn point and entry speed on a blind corner, before you can see the exit? Sure, once you can see the exit you might realize that you could have gone faster - but that is a much better situation than coming in too fast and flying off the side of a mountain!

 

If you recall the Level 1 lecture on turn points, part of that lecture talks about choosing a turn point on an unfamiliar road - you just have to wait until you can see the characteristics of the turn before you can fully commit to it. Staying to the outside can help you see farther ahead, so you can see the shape of the turn sooner than you would from the inside. Riding blind twisty roads may mean you have to choose conservative entry speeds and very late turn points, but I think that is just part of riding unfamiliar roads.

 

Watching the vanishing point can help - if the vanishing point appears to be getting closer to you, the turn is getting tighter, and if it appears to be going away from you, the turn is opening up. This can help with your throttle control mid-corner - if you can tell the turn is opening up, you may be able to roll on a bit, even though you can't see the exit.

 

One of the really fun things about riding on a track is the repeatability of the turns, so that even for blind turns you learn from experience that you can enter faster - which is a thrill, since your EYES tell you it's dangerous so it feels scary. :) Plus you don't have to worry about there being a tree in the road, or a car, to surprise you at the exit!

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Maybe I am being too critical - it's something I'm guilty of in everything I do!

 

I wasn't so much wanting a way to absolutely decide the entry speed, just a way to judge it better. I hope that makes sense.

 

I always ride to stop in the distance I can see to be clear on my side of the road and am familiar with the VP from doing my IAM test. However, even though I passed the test the examiner did say that I could pick the pace up a bit and still be completely safe, it just doesn't feel like it when I'm approaching the bends. As soon as I'm in them, however, it's obvious that I've over compensated and slowed too much. As I said above, I find the VP method doesn't give you a decisive TP or definitive action point. It encourages lazy steering as the tendency is to speed up and slow down as the VP moves away/comes closer. It also makes it difficult to only use 1 steering input per turn.

 

At no point on level 1 did we discuss how to select the TP for unfamiliar roads. We discussed how most people turn early and slowly and discussed moving it further into the turn but there was no real discussion of unfamiliar street riding. This was always 1 of my concerns before doing the school - most stuff is very easy on a track that you go over and over but can be very different on some of Yorkshire's finest roads. I'm not saying that the school skills don't apply to the road, just that it can be a bit difficult to transfer them over easily.

 

I guess I should just accept the way I ride and get over it.

 

Dae.

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My son has just started riding and is progressing well considering he's only ridden 300 miles on public roads so far plus a couple of hours on a training ground practicing gearchanges and braking. We are now working on getting him to corner correctly, as his natural tendency is to turn in way too early and then run wide on the exit - something you do not want on public roads at all. It took some convincing for him to follow in my wheeltracks around corners, but it's coming along. His habit stems from playing games on Playstation and X-box for ages, and I've told him for nearly all his life he needs to wait for the corner, but he never does. And the games have enough help features to let him get away with it.

 

To me, turning in early is - and have always been - totally illogic and also frightening. You lose vision ahead, you limit your line options and you are always more or less out of control and every time you run wide is a brown spot in the pants moment. For me, at least.

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Maybe I am being too critical - it's something I'm guilty of in everything I do!

 

I wasn't so much wanting a way to absolutely decide the entry speed, just a way to judge it better. I hope that makes sense.

 

 

I guess I should just accept the way I ride and get over it.

 

Dae.

 

It's always a great goal to improve your riding; street riding has some inherent limitations, but that doesn't mean that there aren't skills that could help. :)

I've been thinking about what you've said, and I wonder if the vanishing point idea could be having an undesired effect. Part of the purpose of using the vanishing point is to prevent target fixation, to get the rider's eyes up and looking through the turn. But on a very tight corner with really limited visibility, that vanishing point might be pretty close to you. Do you ever feel that watching the VP narrows down your field of view? Compare how you feel in that situation versus one other you mentioned - riding downhill where you can see the entire turn and more. Could that VP be taking TOO much of your attention, and affecting your wide view?

 

Here's a quote from A Twist of the Wrist II that might be helpful:

"While riding, every decision you make is governed by the amount of space you have, think you have, feel you have or believe you have."

 

Level II of CSS is all about vision. One of the drills is Wide View (and guess what, it comes AFTER the VP drill...what do you know :) ) and it is all about opening up your vision, which really helps you judge entry speed, and choose turn points, and avoid early turn in and a host of other SRs. It's my favorite drill of all time because it made such a huge difference in my willingness to ride fast. Chapters 20 and 21 in Twist cover the concept very well.

 

Here is another bit from Twist, approaching things from another angle:

"Even though they want to, riders have lots of reasons for not going into turns quicker, e.g.: I didn't know the turn; I thought I would run wide; I would have to lean it over too far; there was traffic in the oncoming lane; and the usual, fear of losing traction as the ultimate bad result. While each of these seems like a separate, different reason, they all mean you doubted your ability to get it turned."

 

That is from Chapter 17, all about steering, and one of the questions in the intro is this: "How many times have you noticed (at mid-turn) that your corner entry speed could have been higher?"

 

This is about being able to quick turn the bike, and although I know you have already learned this technique, it is one that can be very useful in making you feel you have a larger safety margin, allowing a higher entry speed without triggering SRs. From what you've said before, it sounds like you are already using quick turn but it bears mentioning for the sake of others who are reading this, since, to quote the book again "Your quick turn abilities determine your corner entry speed. Period."

 

The point here is that while you can't change the road, you may be able to change other things in your riding that could improve your confidence in entering those blind turns, giving you more certainty in choosing your turn point, how and where to steer the bike, and choosing a workable entry speed.

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That is from Chapter 17, all about steering, and one of the questions in the intro is this: "How many times have you noticed (at mid-turn) that your corner entry speed could have been higher?"

 

This is about being able to quick turn the bike, and although I know you have already learned this technique, it is one that can be very useful in making you feel you have a larger safety margin, allowing a higher entry speed without triggering SRs. From what you've said before, it sounds like you are already using quick turn but it bears mentioning for the sake of others who are reading this, since, to quote the book again "Your quick turn abilities determine your corner entry speed. Period."

 

Absolutely worth repeating. Turn 1 at Thunderbolt comes after a long straight section. I immediately know that I could have entered the corner at a higher speed because I wind up apexing a little earlier than I had planned due to a quick turn that was actually quicker than necessary for my speed, if that makes sense. Again - the great thing about the track is you get to repeat that corner over and over again, making small adjustments each time until you get it dialed in.

 

Of course, the Two Step ties into this, and once I figured out WHEN to look at my apex and for how long, I was able to really hit my lines consistently and confidently increase my speed.

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I intend to do level 2, but realistically this won't be until next year and will need some careful planning and organisation (see my post post level 1 which described my medical issues).

 

You may be onto something with the VP taking too much attention. My gut feeling was that the 2 step is hard to do if you don't have step 1 (VP) set correctly. By the time I am finding my Step 1 there's not much to step 2 as I'm almost out the other side.

 

Although I do always try and practice my Quick Turn I'm pretty sure it's a "slightly faster turn" than a "quick turn". It's a combination of feeling like the front is going to let go and feeling like I'll be leaned too far over. Initially I thought that it could be due to not getting a good grip on the tank. I've fitted some Tech-Spec which has helped but the lip on the top of the tank if just slightly too high so even if I raise my feet onto the balls I can touch the underside of the lip rather than lock into it.

 

Interestingly enough I never seemed to have these issues with my old bike which I had for 3 years before I got rid of it in March last year. The two bikes are quite a contrast - the old one was a 250kg IL4 CBF1000 (touring type bike) and the new one is a 170kg v-twin Aprilia Shiver (naked street bike). The old bike definitely seemed more planted and offered much more feedback when leaning it over. I could quite easily touch the pegs down and even did it on the hired FZ8 at Silverstone when I did level 1. I've never touched a peg on the Shiver and always feel like I'm much further over than I did on the CBF1000, even though in reality I'm nowhere near.

 

The lack of front end feel is a very common issue on the Aprilia Shiver forum and the majority of people complain about it and make changes. As such I was in contact with a local suspension guru last night and I'm going to have the front springs and oil changed to try and getter more feedback (the Shiver has no adjustability whatsoever on the front).

 

I think the target fixation of the VP combined with the not-quite-a-quick-turn and the lack of confidence/feel in the front may be adding up to much more than their constituent parts. As you said your ability (or perception thereof) to quick turn always rules your entry speed.

 

I know I ramble on a fair bit, but sometimes just thinking about things and putting it into words can start off a chain reaction of thoughts and reveal that the problem isn't actually the one you first thought it was.

 

Sorry,

Dae.

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The point here is that while you can't change the road, you may be able to change other things in your riding that could improve your confidence in entering those blind turns, giving you more certainty in choosing your turn point, how and where to steer the bike, and choosing a workable entry speed.

Some crash statistics from A Twist of the Wrist II:

"Factually, it's uncommon to go into a turn too fast! Watch racing for 20 or 30 years and tell me what you observe. My eyes tell me going in too fast is low on the scale of crash causes. It is rare. Going in with the brakes on too hard and crashing is another thing; that causes crashes fairly often and is an obvious rider error. That most riders misjudge their turn-entry speed, usually on the slow side, is a major stumbling block to clean and quick turn execution."

 

 

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Hi Dae,

 

I was thinking about this thread while out road riding today and I think Hotfoot has (as so often! Thank you, Hotfoot :) ) put her finger on it.

 

To be able to enter a corner faster, you've got to be able to steer quicker. No 'Ifs, Buts or Maybes': as Hotfoot points out, Keith has already said it: "Your quick turn abilities determine your corner entry speed. Period."

 

So work on your quick steering. And by 'work', I mean that your objective should be to build your confidence in your ability to do it. 'cos anyone can do it, but first you have to believe you can. Try steering round cones in a car park, if necessary.

 

As to the danger of loosing the front end, I asked Andy Ibbot the stupid question, maybe the one is that is in the back of your mind, i.e. "Is it possible to steer too quickly?" His answer was categoric: "No".

 

Anyway, HTH.

 

Craig

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