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Drill For Learning To Trust The Tires?


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You will relax more once you are confident that you are operating the bike properly.

 

And I'm not saying that you are NOT riding properly, just that your posts indicate that you are uncertain, which can present problems once you start picking up the pace.

 

Heck, I think I know what I'm doing (or at least supposed to do :D ) and still get into trouble... B)

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I have fallen due to the front, the rear and both tires and is not as bad as your mind makes you believe it is.

Your survival reaction is nothing more than an exaggerated fear to an event that is perfectly survivable.

Hmmm... It's taken me almost two years to recover from a relatively low speed crash on the track in 2010, and in fact I have a permanent injury and will never be the same. While people crash every day, and often come through with nothing but bruised ego, suggesting a crash [possibly] "is not as bad..." or "is nothing more than an exaggerated fear..." still is a bit disingenuous in my opinion. I'm not suggesting we ride around in fear of crashing but, as others have already noted, I believe this topic is far better served by discussing how you find limits without deliberately placing yourself in jeopardy with a crash.

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OK; I think we can all agree that crashing is no fun and that no one wants to crash whether we learn from it or not. I know from personal experience that crashing will haunt a rider like nothing else can and it does affect (my) confidence big time. When I know why I crashed (braking too much at too much lean) it is easier to move on from it; when I don't have a clue why it happened it is very hard to trust again. At least that's my sense of this thread and clearly it does provoke some strong emotion in the process. It's more like a new topic we could label: "How I didn't Save My Bacon"... if you know what I mean?

 

So let's see if we can stay focused on helping Yellow Duck to the Promised Land of Cornering Nirvana shall we?

 

 

 

Rain

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I certainly agree that learning how to control the bike, and predict what it will do, is the best approach. Falling sucks and it costs money and possibly injury.

 

YellowDuck, I completely understand that you'd ike a specific answer, drill, or solution to help you, instead of questions, but there is a lot TO your question! There are many things that can affect front tire grip, everything from technique to suspension setup to tire compound and temperature to road surface. Additionally, there are multiple triggers for the Survival Reactions that make us not "trust the tires"; it could be a "false feedback" problem from tension in your arms, a vision problem that results in an skewed sense of speed or lean angle, a technique problem with your chosen lines, even a suspension problem that prevents your tire from being in constant contact with the road. Something is telling you that you shouldn't lean over any farther; it could be real or it could be a perception problem, but just telling you to "quit worrying about it" is not likely to help much.

 

At a school, the drills combined with a coach watching you and talking with you would rapidly identify the source of the problem and find a drill to solve it. But since that is not an easy option for you, Twist II is the next best bet - I see that you have ordered it already - and right on Page 3 is a description of the Survival Reactions and the things that most commonly trigger them. It may be that reading that one page will help you identify what is worrying you, and possibly even identify something (or things) that you are doing that are aggravating instead of improving the situation. Certainly the more you read, the more solutions you will find, and most of us have found that as our riding progresses and we encounter new barriers, we refer back to Twist again for more solutions. :)

 

The forum group is a generous crowd and will try to help you, but it would require a bunch of questions to ferret out the source of your concern and suggest a drill to handle it; not to mention that we will need to try to explain the technique behind the drill itself. Reading Twist II will put you WAY ahead of the curve, and with that data in hand, the forum conversations can be much more productive!

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Oh believe me, I will devour the book once it arrives!

 

I have actually got a fair bit out of this thread already, so thanks to all who have responded. Reading over it all and studying my photos a bit more has led me to understand that one of the big problems is that I think I am going to ground my pegs....even though it is plain from the geometry in the photo that that is never going to happen before my knee touches. It is kind of a "body awareness" issue, at least in part - I am misperceiving where my foot and knee are relative to one another and relative to the ground.

 

I also wonder if having more than 150,000 miles of road riding experience before ever going to the track is part of the reason that "track pace" lean angles feel so unnatural to me.

 

So far, based on everyone's suggestions, for my next track day I will definitely work on 1) keeping my head level 2) getting my outside leg better engaged with the tank (based on the photo!), 3) increasing my turn in speed and trying to get the turning (leaning) done quickly, and of course 4) continuing to try to stay relaxed and letting the bike do what it is supposed to.

 

Likely I will have read a big bunch of TOTW2 before then, which should help.

 

Thanks all - I will report back in a few weeks and let you know how I got on.

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Did you ever ride a road cruiser during your 150K miles ? If you did - then part of your hesitation might be related to all those miles where you were riding a bike that had limited ground clearance (namely pegs and exhaust). If you've ridden say a Harley for many years and you know you have limited ground clearance on the right because of the exhaust (or footpegs) that could jack your rear wheel off - then yes, that thought might sit with you while you're on a track trying to determine how far you can lean over.

 

I actually still have my harley and have two problems - one) when riding the track bike of how far I can lean, and B) when I'm riding my Harley I'm constantly worried about tipping it over too far and scraping pegs/exhaust. . . Probably need to get rid of the lesser performing one. . ..

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My advice for your next track day would be to pick 1 corner to really focus on, not a fast sweeper or a slow tight one but something you could realistically carry a lot of lean angle through at a moderate speed and have good clear vision for the entire corner. Start by perfecting your throttle roll on in that corner, once you have that down pick some good reference points for the corner so you are consistently turning in at the same point and apexing at the same point and apply the 2 Step. At this point you should pretty much feel like the bike is gliding on a rail through this corner and you should be very relaxed and confident that everything is working as it should be. Then just gradually up your pace through the corner, as your pace increases you will have to turn in a little harder and carry a little more lean angle. Motorcycling takes a lot of confidence, confidence in yourself, your bike, your tires, the road. Its not something you can build on your own in leaps and bounds and its much easier to lose it then gain.

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Hey YellowDuck, I know exactly what you're talking about, I struggled with similar feelings for a long time. Good news is, I've learnt quite a few things which have helped alot. But first a question for you - when you're in a corner, are you concentrating on the lean angle, or the traction of the tyres?

 

 

I have tried putting my attention on different things, and find I do better if I sort of think about trying to "work the tires", i.e., consciously try to build up lateral g's, while also staying relaxed at the bars. However, even then, I eventually reach a lean angle that makes me think "eek, is my boot going to hit the ground?" You can see from the photo that that is not likely!

 

So, in other words, I *try* not to think about lean angle, but it ends up popping into my head at a certain point when I am farther over than normal.

 

Okay, sorry for the late reply to this thread - I didn't mean to just ask you questions and leave you hanging. tongue.gif

I'll mention a few things that have helped me personally. First up, why I asked about whether you concentrate on traction or lean angle... I found that if I give all my attention to traction and grip that I am much more confident and I have a much better idea of what the tyres are actually doing. The way I see it is that compared to traction, lean angle is irrelevant. Let me explain it this way - if you become used to using say 50º lean angle on a level track (meaning lean angle relative to true horizontal), then you may mentally condition yourself to believe that 50º is the most you can lean. That may be fine on a level track, but if you ride a negative or positive camber corner and try to use the same lean angle (relative to 0º) you could find yourself either crashing, or limiting your available lean angle. If you are giving your attention to traction and not worrying about lean angle, you'll always be getting more accurate information about what your tyres are actually doing. Because after all, lean angle is not the only deciding factor in traction.

 

I suppose the first "drill" for this is more of a mental one, allowing yourself permission to use any lean angle, just open your mind to that possibility, but when riding don't think about the lean angle, just focus on the traction.

 

Allowing yourself that possibility of using any lean angle also has benefits for street riding. Probably everyone has seen pictures, video, or watched a rider go straight off the road and into a guardrail/tree carrying say 30, 40º lean. Because that lean limit was so real in their mind, they couldn't even turn the bike more to make the corner.

 

Next up, another mental tip. It simply is: ensure that your subjective observations match the objective reality as closely as possible. Another one that probably everyone has experienced - say a rider has been at a track day and at the end of it they're pretty happy with themselves, they feel as if they're really been getting into corners hard and carrying some good lean angle. But then they get to see some photos of themselves and they can't believe that their knee was still 30cm off the ground! The problem was their observations were far from reality, which is a problem for anyone trying to improve their riding and ride to a high level.

 

The "drill" here is just to try and make sure that your observations match reality as closely as possible. You can do this anywhere, street, track etc. It might mean that you need to put aside your feelings (as in "wow, that felt like alot of lean...") and take a step back and just honestly ask yourself if your observation really matches the reality of the situation.

 

Kai mentioned the "20º wall". For me this was an important thing to understand and helped a lot. I always find that if I can understand the reason for a certain behaviour, I'm in a better position to correct it and control it in future. The reason for that 20º wall is that people cannot naturally exceed 20º lean. Which is why even new riders will readily lean up to 20º but then they're not so keen to continue to lean... On a natural surface like grass, dirt etc. a person can run in circles and actually be leaning their body 20º. But then past that, the traction won't be enough, they'll lose their footing. That is the mental conditioning that all riders need to overcome. Don't beat yourself up because of it, it's not something you should naturally be able to do. The speeds and lean angles possible on a motorcycle are most definitely un-natural.

 

There's not really any drills for this, but I just like to keep some facts in mind to strengthen my "lean faith" (the best description I can come up with). One that I only recently understood was that tyres actually have more rubber on the ground, and more traction when on the side of the tyre than when on the centre! Also keep in mind that a bike will never just "lose traction" (assuming good tyres, good road surface, bike in good condition etc.) The way that traction works is in a zone, you have static friction > sliding friction > no friction. No friction will really only be possible if the tyre is off the ground. To understand those traction zones, imagine that you're walking up some incline banking like at the old Monza circuit. At the bottom you start out fine, but as you progress further up the banking you will feel that your traction is decreasing. Eventually you'll get to a point where you know that if you take one more step you will lose your footing and tumble down the banking. Can you imagine the situation? Have you ever tried that yourself? Do you agree that you would be able to recognise that last step and stop yourself before losing your footing? I bet you didn't expect to be able to identify the point of sliding friction without experiencing it. Hmmm... interesting. smile.gif

 

The lesson there is that just like the 20º wall, our subconscious has also been conditioned to recognise the feeling of traction. Think about that for a second - your body knows the feelings of static friction and sliding friction. Therefore asking yourself questions like "do I have enough traction here" or "can I lean more" is really just using up attention. Our subconscious knows the feeling of traction, no point in trying to re-educate ourselves!

 

Now to the subject of tyres... if you're still waiting to receive TOTW II you may not have heard of this before, but Keith Code actually recommends not to go out and use the best tyres right away. But rather to use a regular street tyre instead of a track tyre or slicks. Having done this myself, I definitely have to agree! The reasoning behind this is that you'll find it much easier to find the limits of a tyre if those limits aren't so high. Knowing the limits of a tyre is an important part to having the confidence and faith to lean more. Trying to find the limits of a slick or track-oriented tyre (especially if you've never found the limits of a lesser tyre) is a very big ask. Using myself as an example, about 2 years ago I got my suspension tuned and put a set of BT-003's on my Gixxer for a track day. And you know what, I didn't feel especially confident and wasn't really riding that well. I took them off the bike and put a set of Michelin Power Pure's on. During that time I did some rider training, learnt about the 20º wall and other things I mentioned in the post, and I kept using the Power Pure's until I was comfortable that I found their limit. I went through about 2 or 3 sets of them, in the end the rear tyre was doing a small slide just about every time I would start to open the throttle mid-corner. Maybe they're the sort of tyre that "goes off" really quick, but either way it sure got my used to the feeling of having a little slide. Fast forward to after I did CSS Level 1 earlier this year, I put the 003's back on and went to another track day and I finally felt that I was able to make use of the better tyres. It was definitely a case of 1 step backwards, 3 steps forward! I know alot of people feel that they want the "confidence" of sticky rubber, but really how much confidence will you have if you don't have some frame of reference?

 

I'll leave it there for now. I have more that I could go on with, but I think that's enough for one post, eh? tongue.gif

I hope I've explained everything clearly, and even more I hope that you find something there which helps you. These are just some things that I personally found helpful, if you find them interesting or helpful yourself, let me know and I'll return with the followup.

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mblaster makes a good point about the trail braking... especially given that you're unsure about the grip of the tyres, adding in braking forces while cornering is another thing that will use your attention. By leaving the braking separate from cornering you're eliminating one of the most common causes of crashes.

 

Okay one more question for you YellowDuck - do you feel that you either need to be on the brakes or on the throttle while you're cornering, or would you be completely happy to coast through a corner without touching the brakes or the throttle?

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..............One that I only recently understood was that tyres actually have more rubber on the ground, and more traction when on the side of the tyre than when on the centre!.................

I really love your posts Mugget, but I would like you extending your explanation of the quoted statement.

 

Here is a good article for the OP to read:

 

http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=579

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..............One that I only recently understood was that tyres actually have more rubber on the ground, and more traction when on the side of the tyre than when on the centre!.................

I really love your posts Mugget, but I would like you extending your explanation of the quoted statement.

 

Here is a good article for the OP to read:

 

http://forums.superb...p?showtopic=579

 

 

There may be more rubber on the ground in a lean but the bike is more stable stood up. Thus the pick up drill.

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I'll leave it there for now. I have more that I could go on with, but I think that's enough for one post, eh? tongue.gif

I hope I've explained everything clearly, and even more I hope that you find something there which helps you. These are just some things that I personally found helpful, if you find them interesting or helpful yourself, let me know and I'll return with the followup.

 

Yes, very helpful and generous of you to write all that to try to help me out! It is clear that you understand exactly what my issue is ("lean faith" - perfect!). I have read it all through a couple of times and understand it perfectly - I am sure it will help me. I may even try running with my M3s next track day instead of the redstripes, if I have time to do the swap.

 

This is exactly the type of information I was looking for when I started the thread. Thanks so much!

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..............One that I only recently understood was that tyres actually have more rubber on the ground, and more traction when on the side of the tyre than when on the centre!.................

I really love your posts Mugget, but I would like you extending your explanation of the quoted statement.

 

Here is a good article for the OP to read:

 

http://forums.superb...p?showtopic=579

 

 

The contact patch when leaned over is larger, but there is not more traction. There are more forces(different directions) acting upon that contact patch that takes away from traction.

 

 

 

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Okay one more question for you YellowDuck - do you feel that you either need to be on the brakes or on the throttle while you're cornering, or would you be completely happy to coast through a corner without touching the brakes or the throttle?

 

I'm curious to know where this is going....

 

It depends what you mean by "coasting". Normally being off the throttle on my bike (large displacment twin running at high rpm) means major engine braking and therefore decceleration, even without brakes. That would be a weird way to go through a corner, but I have done it for a bit when I thought I was in too hot, and it is okay. Not pleasant when I get back on the throttle and the chassis attitude rocks backwards suddenly - but at that point I wold be applying the throttle pretty gently, having already blown the corner.

 

If by "coasting" you mean neutral throttle, then yes, I do that alot, especially on long slow corners and it is very comfortable.

 

If by "coasting" you mean freewheeling (i.e., clutch pulled in or bike accidentally in a false neutal or something), no that would really spook me. Without the engine engaged with the drive train I am kind of lost and nothing feels right. For example, hitting a flase neutral while gearing down for a corner is pretty terrifying.

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Glad to hear that YellowDuck! Great if you can fit some different tyres, just start off nice & steady and gradually push a bit more. Don't be worried about using a street tyre either, the Power Pure's are rated for 70% street, 30% track. Definitely a competent tyre, not "dangerous" at all for track riding, but the point was that their limit was much lower, and much easier for me to find. One other thing to keep in mind - if you're going out with the aim of finding the limits of a tyre, you should expect a bit of movement or sliding. Just keep it in mind, accept that you may (or probably will) have a slide. If you do that it will be hard to be totally surprised by it (you can't really be surprised by something that you're expecting wink.gif ).

 

One other thing that I found helpful, this was a bit of advice given by a racer who had been coaching me for a day. I asked about how to go faster without going over the limit, he said to watch for warnings from the tyres. The tyres will always give you a little slide-&-grip, a little wiggle, or some movement in the suspension, tying the chassis in knots etc., before they let go into a big slide (unless you add a lot of brakes or throttle). That ties in with the "traction zones", but it's just another physical sign that you can look for to know whether you're approaching the limit.

 

The question of tyre side grip... I can't remember exactly where I read it, but that was basically what was said word for word (that tyres have more grip on the sides, shame I can't remember where I saw it...). But to add a bit more info - most people believe (or imagine) that when they lean over onto the side of the tyre that there will be less rubber on the ground. This is not true! As the bike leans and the tyre moves onto the edge it will actually deform and create a larger contact patch compared to what you have when the bike is upright. For me that's the really important point that I can use to increase my "lean faith". Knowing that there's plenty of rubber on the ground when leant over. Just think about the forces you can put through a tyre when accelerating or braking hard. You can put just the same type of hard corning force through a tyre when leant right over.

 

There's not as much traction on the side compared to the centre of the tyre? I would disagree... when I started to experience cornering G-forces I could see that more clearly. I think those cornering forces are very similar to hard acceleration & braking forces. Definitely different - but I would say that the level/type of force is very similar. I think that's where some people get into a bit of a muddle when they start to try and mix those different forces. Yes a tyre only has limited grip (100%). You cannot add brakes or throttle while at maximum lean any more than you could turn the bike while accelerating with the throttle wound flat out! When the tyre is only needing to handle the cornering forces, it's completely fine. Just as safe and secure as if you're upright with the throttle wound to the stop. But if you try and ask it to do more by applying brakes or adding throttle (in other words, asking the tyres to work at 101%) that's all it takes to create a little slide and maybe crash.

 

That is why the pick up drill is a great one for getting onto the throttle ASAP, because hard cornering and hard accelerating forces do not mix well together.

 

Also there's been a fair bit of discussion here around Contact Patch Vs Grip if anyone is interested in that subject: http://forums.superb...?showtopic=3231

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There's not as much traction on the side compared to the centre of the tyre? I would disagree... when I started to experience cornering G-forces I could see that more clearly. I think those cornering forces are very similar to hard acceleration & braking forces. Definitely different - but I would say that the level/type of force is very similar. I think that's where some people get into a bit of a muddle when they start to try and mix those different forces. Yes a tyre only has limited grip (100%). You cannot add brakes or throttle while at maximum lean any more than you could turn the bike while accelerating with the throttle wound flat out! When the tyre is only needing to handle the cornering forces, it's completely fine. Just as safe and secure as if you're upright with the throttle wound to the stop. But if you try and ask it to do more by applying brakes or adding throttle (in other words, asking the tyres to work at 101%) that's all it takes to create a little slide and maybe crash.

 

 

Just highlighting this paragraph as you do contravene the throttle rule in that respect, you say that you can't add brakes or throttle at maximum lean and that might be a bit misleading, as it goes against the teaching of cracking on the throttle as soon as possible after your turning input is complete.

 

Once you've turned and got to that maximum lean angle, you ideally want to be adding throttle at that point, not a massive amount and certainly not enough to overwhelm the tyres, but certainly enough to load the rear tyre and get the suspension working in that optimum range.

 

 

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There's not as much traction on the side compared to the centre of the tyre? I would disagree... when I started to experience cornering G-forces I could see that more clearly. I think those cornering forces are very similar to hard acceleration & braking forces. Definitely different - but I would say that the level/type of force is very similar. I think that's where some people get into a bit of a muddle when they start to try and mix those different forces. Yes a tyre only has limited grip (100%). You cannot add brakes or throttle while at maximum lean any more than you could turn the bike while accelerating with the throttle wound flat out! When the tyre is only needing to handle the cornering forces, it's completely fine. Just as safe and secure as if you're upright with the throttle wound to the stop. But if you try and ask it to do more by applying brakes or adding throttle (in other words, asking the tyres to work at 101%) that's all it takes to create a little slide and maybe crash.

 

 

Just highlighting this paragraph as you do contravene the throttle rule in that respect, you say that you can't add brakes or throttle at maximum lean and that might be a bit misleading, as it goes against the teaching of cracking on the throttle as soon as possible after your turning input is complete.

 

Once you've turned and got to that maximum lean angle, you ideally want to be adding throttle at that point, not a massive amount and certainly not enough to overwhelm the tyres, but certainly enough to load the rear tyre and get the suspension working in that optimum range.

 

 

 

Yes, I think there is a bit of a logical flaw, in the assumption that "maximum lean" means the tires are at the limit of traction. That may or may not be true on a given bike with a given set of tires on a given track, but most often it won't be. Lean angle is usually ground clearance limited, yes? So, in most cases at maximum lean there is still *some* tire traction available for acceleration, right?

 

This is just a logical argument on my part because I have never experienced maximum lean on any motorcycle that wasn't severely ground clearance limited (low pegs, etc)...but I think it makes sense.

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Yes, I think there is a bit of a logical flaw, in the assumption that "maximum lean" means the tires are at the limit of traction. That may or may not be true on a given bike with a given set of tires on a given track, but most often it won't be. Lean angle is usually ground clearance limited, yes? So, in most cases at maximum lean there is still *some* tire traction available for acceleration, right?

 

This is just a logical argument on my part because I have never experienced maximum lean on any motorcycle that wasn't severely ground clearance limited (low pegs, etc)...but I think it makes sense.

There is the lean angle of the bike and there is the lean angle of the bike-rider system.

 

The hang-off technique allows the latter to be higher than the former.

 

Check this old post and schematic:

 

http://forums.superb...indpost&p=26467

 

As you can see, the limit of traction (360 degrees around the contact patch) is reached only when the resultant lateral force on the patch grows up to the magnitude of the maximum static friction (force normal to the patch times the static friction coefficient).

 

The lean angle of the system (bike-rider) is a visible gauge of the rate of those two forces: 26 degrees mean that the friction force is half of the normal force.

 

The recommended 0.1G acceleration during a turn that Code recommends does subtract just a little of the maximum lateral allowable friction; however, it introduces a bigger benefit: to allocate a distribution of weight (40 front / 60 rear) that works in harmony with the design of the front and rear tire-suspension systems.

post-23333-0-11384700-1340053002_thumb.jpg

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There's not as much traction on the side compared to the centre of the tyre? I would disagree... when I started to experience cornering G-forces I could see that more clearly. I think those cornering forces are very similar to hard acceleration & braking forces. Definitely different - but I would say that the level/type of force is very similar. I think that's where some people get into a bit of a muddle when they start to try and mix those different forces. Yes a tyre only has limited grip (100%). You cannot add brakes or throttle while at maximum lean any more than you could turn the bike while accelerating with the throttle wound flat out! When the tyre is only needing to handle the cornering forces, it's completely fine. Just as safe and secure as if you're upright with the throttle wound to the stop. But if you try and ask it to do more by applying brakes or adding throttle (in other words, asking the tyres to work at 101%) that's all it takes to create a little slide and maybe crash.

 

 

Just highlighting this paragraph as you do contravene the throttle rule in that respect, you say that you can't add brakes or throttle at maximum lean and that might be a bit misleading, as it goes against the teaching of cracking on the throttle as soon as possible after your turning input is complete.

 

Once you've turned and got to that maximum lean angle, you ideally want to be adding throttle at that point, not a massive amount and certainly not enough to overwhelm the tyres, but certainly enough to load the rear tyre and get the suspension working in that optimum range.

 

I was wondering if anyone would pick up on that... (I did think about adding a bit of a clarification there, but I can do that now.) tongue.gif

 

Obviously it is also possible to turn with the throttle on the stop, but to a very limited degree, and not very effectively compared with having the throttle closed. The same is true when cornering, you can add brakes or throttle, but to a very limited degree compared to when the bike is upright.

 

The reason I originally worded it like that was to get across the idea that if you separate the braking and accelerating forces from cornering, you can be 100% confident that you will have enough traction when cornering. You have no concern that you may exceed 100%, except by leaning too far, but in that case you'll feel it as you enter that "sliding friction" zone. There's not much of a chance that will be as sudden as a slide caused by the brakes or throttle. (At least that is how I see it, someone tell me if I'm wrong!)

 

So... maximum lean angle = maximum traction being used? At first I started to think that yes maybe I'd jumped to a big assumption, but thinking about it more... I still believe that statement is true. Although when I say "maximum lean angle" I really am talking about an absolute maximum, the image in my mind involves very (very) high speed and elbow on the ground type of cornering. (Not to be confused with a rider's maximum lean angle, or maximum comfort level.) If a rider is able to use any amount of trail braking or throttle, can you really say they're using maximum lean angle? Clearly it would be possible to remove the braking/acceleration force and lean/corner even faster. So using that logic we can say that unless a rider is on the verge of (or actually is) sliding due to cornering forces (no brakes and no throttle), then they're not using maximum lean/maximum traction. BUT that's just my view on it, it makes perfect sense to me... what does everyone think?

 

 

Also cracking the throttle as soon as possible after turning (or more accurately, as soon as you know that you will reach your apex), will not always happen when the bike is at maximum lean. I usually find myself at my maximum lean for a very short amount of time (compared to when I used to turn "lazily"), by the time I'm approaching my apex I'm already standing the bike up. But that also has a lot to do with entry speed and steering rate etc... But riding that way is probably another main reason why my cornering confidence has increased so much. smile.gif

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Now seems like a good time to tackle this question as well...

Okay one more question for you YellowDuck - do you feel that you either need to be on the brakes or on the throttle while you're cornering, or would you be completely happy to coast through a corner without touching the brakes or the throttle?

 

I'm curious to know where this is going....

 

It depends what you mean by "coasting". Normally being off the throttle on my bike (large displacment twin running at high rpm) means major engine braking and therefore decceleration, even without brakes. That would be a weird way to go through a corner, but I have done it for a bit when I thought I was in too hot, and it is okay. Not pleasant when I get back on the throttle and the chassis attitude rocks backwards suddenly - but at that point I wold be applying the throttle pretty gently, having already blown the corner.

 

If by "coasting" you mean neutral throttle, then yes, I do that alot, especially on long slow corners and it is very comfortable.

 

If by "coasting" you mean freewheeling (i.e., clutch pulled in or bike accidentally in a false neutal or something), no that would really spook me. Without the engine engaged with the drive train I am kind of lost and nothing feels right. For example, hitting a flase neutral while gearing down for a corner is pretty terrifying.

 

To explain where I'm coming from with this, and how it's helped me I will just start off with a story about myself. biggrin.giftongue.gif

 

For a long while, maybe 3 or 4 years of street riding and track riding (hey - it's a long time to me!) I would always enter a corner and carry throttle most of the way through. Not using the CSS method (I just want to be clear that what follows is incredibly bad technique), I would actually turn, then accelerate through the entire corner! Combined with my old lazy steering ways, it's no wonder I didn't improve for so long, right? I had got the idea in my head somehow that I needed to be using some throttle otherwise I would risk overloading the front tyre and lowsiding.

 

The brainwave came on the same day as I was doing track day tuition (a great way to learn a new circuit as well, most regular track-goers wouldn't get a chance to do a track walk, but that helps), I was having real trouble with a double apex corner. I spoke with the coach about it and told him what I was doing, he suggested that I try leaving the throttle closed and entering the corner faster, then either leaving the throttle closed or rolling it off for the 2nd apex. I asked about the risk of overloading the front tyre and he said there's no risk at all, the idea that you must carry some throttle through the corner is completely false. There are different reasons why that used to be done, mainly revolving around two strokes and needing to keep their throttles open otherwise the on/off was too abrupt. But I have no idea how I picked up that idea.

 

I tried that, and it made a massive difference just knowing that I can turn a bike into a corner and leave the throttle alone and it will look after itself, there's nothing else that needs doing to "maintain traction" or anything like that. So what I mean about coasting is just using zero brakes, zero throttle (not neutral throttle, but actually closed - no throttle input at all) and turning into a corner. You can coast through an entire corner without worrying about traction (just that your exit speed will be slow).

 

And this does agree with the "CSS method" which goes something like this: Close throttle > apply brakes > release brakes > turn > spot apex & exit > open throttle. Notice how during the "turn" part there is no mention of using brakes or throttle. That's one thing that just didn't connect in my mind.

 

Coasting like that does introduce some more variables because you will find yourself on a tightening line (same lean angle with decreasing speed = a tighter line the longer you stay off the throttle). But to take it a step further you can also use that to your advantage, for example on a double apex corner I will usually choose to enter with a much higher speed and a much later turn point, it may appear as if I'm going to run wide, but I just stay off the throttle, keep the same lean angle (making no additional steering inputs is important) and then cut back to the 2nd apex. It helped my confidence alot to know that if I just stay off the throttle while in a corner I can tighten my line and position myself and the bike that way, no need to try and use the brakes to slow down and make a second attempt at steering if I'm heading a bit wide, just stay off the throttle and I can pull it back.

 

Anyway, the big point to this is that you can turn into a corner carrying as much speed as you like, you can turn in as quick as you like and you'll have practically no legitimate concern that the front will lose grip - IF you stay off the brakes and off the throttle, and stick to the rule of one steering input per turn. The front tyre absolutely has enough grip to handle it. An interesting side point - if you did manage to develop your "quick flick" to such a high level that the tyre broke traction, it would actually be the rear tyre that slides before the front does. Another interesting thing that happens is that if you have made your steering input and are leaned over, then relax your hands on the 'bars, really just resting your hands there, not holding on (because you don't want to accidentally make any additional inputs there, if the front wheel does deflect a bit because of a bump it's usually best to just let it correct itself) it will improve your feel for the tyres & traction a whole lot.

 

In your case YellowDuck you would need to factor in your extra engine braking, if you do decide to try that maybe consider using a higher gear so the on throttle action isn't so jerky and the engine braking effect is less? If you're currently riding through corners with neutral throttle, you'll notice that if you coast you will be able to increase your entry speed and move your turn point later, maybe by a fair margin. The very act of turning, combined with the engine braking will mean there's a noticeable speed difference from the point where you turn in, until you get back on the throttle again. But that's what will allow the later turn point and higher entry speed - for example my speed at turn-in is way too much for each corner, but by the time I've turned and have set my lean angle (and coast a bit if required), the speed is reduced to a level appropriate for the corner. I just mention that so you can start to get an idea of what to expect, but if you try it out for yourself you'll discover that anyway!

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The CSS method actually states (and this is from memory) that you should start cracking open the throttle as soon as possible after your turn input is complete, not the turn itself. It then comes down to your interpretation of the 'as soon as possible' part. smile.gif

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To explain where I'm coming from with this, and how it's helped me I will just start off with a story about myself. biggrin.giftongue.gif

 

For a long while, maybe 3 or 4 years of street riding and track riding (hey - it's a long time to me!) I would always enter a corner and carry throttle most of the way through. Not using the CSS method (I just want to be clear that what follows is incredibly bad technique), I would actually turn, then accelerate through the entire corner! Combined with my old lazy steering ways, it's no wonder I didn't improve for so long, right? I had got the idea in my head somehow that I needed to be using some throttle otherwise I would risk overloading the front tyre and lowsiding.

 

The brainwave came on the same day as I was doing track day tuition (a great way to learn a new circuit as well, most regular track-goers wouldn't get a chance to do a track walk, but that helps), I was having real trouble with a double apex corner. I spoke with the coach about it and told him what I was doing, he suggested that I try leaving the throttle closed and entering the corner faster, then either leaving the throttle closed or rolling it off for the 2nd apex. I asked about the risk of overloading the front tyre and he said there's no risk at all, the idea that you must carry some throttle through the corner is completely false. There are different reasons why that used to be done, mainly revolving around two strokes and needing to keep their throttles open otherwise the on/off was too abrupt. But I have no idea how I picked up that idea.

 

I tried that, and it made a massive difference just knowing that I can turn a bike into a corner and leave the throttle alone and it will look after itself, there's nothing else that needs doing to "maintain traction" or anything like that. So what I mean about coasting is just using zero brakes, zero throttle (not neutral throttle, but actually closed - no throttle input at all) and turning into a corner. You can coast through an entire corner without worrying about traction (just that your exit speed will be slow).

 

And this does agree with the "CSS method" which goes something like this: Close throttle > apply brakes > release brakes > turn > spot apex & exit > open throttle. Notice how during the "turn" part there is no mention of using brakes or throttle. That's one thing that just didn't connect in my mind.

 

Coasting like that does introduce some more variables because you will find yourself on a tightening line (same lean angle with decreasing speed = a tighter line the longer you stay off the throttle). But to take it a step further you can also use that to your advantage, for example on a double apex corner I will usually choose to enter with a much higher speed and a much later turn point, it may appear as if I'm going to run wide, but I just stay off the throttle, keep the same lean angle (making no additional steering inputs is important) and then cut back to the 2nd apex. It helped my confidence alot to know that if I just stay off the throttle while in a corner I can tighten my line and position myself and the bike that way, no need to try and use the brakes to slow down and make a second attempt at steering if I'm heading a bit wide, just stay off the throttle and I can pull it back.

 

Anyway, the big point to this is that you can turn into a corner carrying as much speed as you like, you can turn in as quick as you like and you'll have practically no legitimate concern that the front will lose grip - IF you stay off the brakes and off the throttle, and stick to the rule of one steering input per turn. The front tyre absolutely has enough grip to handle it. An interesting side point - if you did manage to develop your "quick flick" to such a high level that the tyre broke traction, it would actually be the rear tyre that slides before the front does. Another interesting thing that happens is that if you have made your steering input and are leaned over, then relax your hands on the 'bars, really just resting your hands there, not holding on (because you don't want to accidentally make any additional inputs there, if the front wheel does deflect a bit because of a bump it's usually best to just let it correct itself) it will improve your feel for the tyres & traction a whole lot.

 

In your case YellowDuck you would need to factor in your extra engine braking, if you do decide to try that maybe consider using a higher gear so the on throttle action isn't so jerky and the engine braking effect is less? If you're currently riding through corners with neutral throttle, you'll notice that if you coast you will be able to increase your entry speed and move your turn point later, maybe by a fair margin. The very act of turning, combined with the engine braking will mean there's a noticeable speed difference from the point where you turn in, until you get back on the throttle again. But that's what will allow the later turn point and higher entry speed - for example my speed at turn-in is way too much for each corner, but by the time I've turned and have set my lean angle (and coast a bit if required), the speed is reduced to a level appropriate for the corner. I just mention that so you can start to get an idea of what to expect, but if you try it out for yourself you'll discover that anyway!

 

 

.....................(pop!).....................

 

^^^^ (sound of YellowDuck's brain exploding.......very small explosion...)

 

 

Seriously, thanks again - I now have *more* than enough to work on next track day. Unfortunately that looks to be a month off...but it will be at my regular track, so I can gauge my improvement from the lap times.

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I have followed this with great interest and thought much more about it and concluded that for me, it's more about the bike than the actual lean angle. Some bikes I can just toss around, others make me more or less uneasy. I had a ride on the CB400SF the other day, and as long as I can stay ultra-smooth the bike steers with nary an input and is stable and predictable. However, if I try to grab it by its neck, like tightening the line midcorner, everything goes out the window, steering is heavy and I run wide. I think the very soft suspension is part of this, as things are very muted between rider and tyre/road interface.

 

Once you've run a bit wide a few times, you tend to be more alert, making it harder to stay relaxed if the pace is upped a bit. So it's an ugly circle. I think I will have to spring for new shock absorbers and upp the fork oil level for a firmer ride first and see what it does.

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