boroboy69 Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 So this question may sound rather simple but I think no matter ones experience level, many could benefit from the answers. Here is my question: I have been riding for 2-3 years now and I practice all the proper body positioning techniques, however, recently I took pictures coming into several corners to study what I am doing but my lean angle is very shallow and I'm not "hanging" way off. The corners feel great, the bike is stable and no issues other than I can't seem to get the bike to layover to strong lean angles. When I am cornering, it feels as if I am leaning over quite a bit, yet the pictures show otherwise. Considering my body positioning is proper, what else could I be doing that would not generate considerable lean angle, or in general what tips would you give to increase anyone's lean angle?( The corner I am using I have been hitting around 40-50 mph) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aslcbr600 Posted October 4, 2012 Report Share Posted October 4, 2012 Let me ask you this, Are you keeping a solid line or are you finding yourself adjusting mid corner? Are you quick turning or being lazy? Is your upper body in line with your lower body? From my understanding deep lean angles are cool for pictures but adding increased lean angle when it is not needed for the turn makes your body positioning awkward and the turn isn't as smooth or fast. Saying your corner speed is 40-50mph doesn't really help much, it's kinda like saying "in T7 I don't know if I can go faster or not" without a video or picture of the turn it's hard to say if that speed is even sufficient for a deeper lean angle. You may be taking the turn properly but just because your knee isn't on the ground doesn't mean you didn't do it right. Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utahphunk Posted October 4, 2012 Report Share Posted October 4, 2012 Assuming you're correct in that you don't have any serious body positioning problems, then it sounds like the answer is, "Go faster." For any given body position (be it good or bad), more speed = more lean angle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmckeen Posted October 4, 2012 Report Share Posted October 4, 2012 I think the biggest possible tip one could give for increasing lean angle would be, Attend a CSS school. I'm curious why you are trying to use more lean angle, proper body position and good technique results in less lean angle for any given radius and speed, so your options to increase it are either to use poor technique, not recommended, or increase your speed and depending on the road you are traversing that might not be the safest of options either and riding at a pace that requires extreme lean angles is best left to the track. posting the pictures of your riding style along with any of the road or corner you're referring too would make it a little easier to diagnose your question as well. Tyler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YellowDuck Posted October 4, 2012 Report Share Posted October 4, 2012 It's very common to feel like you are hanging off more than you really are, and to feel like you are leaning more than you really are. Almost everyone I know who saw pictures of themselves cornering on the track for the first time was surprised at how little lean angle they were using, and how little they were off the bike. I assume though that we are talking about street riding. If that is the case, then I wouldn't encourage you to pursue lean angle just for the sake of it. As others have mentioned, if your technique is good then the only ways to increase lean angle is to use a poor cornering line, use poor technique, or to simply go faster. There is no good arguement for the first two, and the latter might be a poor idea too depending on the road conditions, traffic, speed limits, etc. Get thee to the track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boroboy69 Posted October 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2012 Thank you for everyone's input so far. I completely undserstand that increasing lean angle on public roads is not highly advised and improper body positioning and poor lines would cause an increase in lean angle. The question I have is more related to the fact that many guys are able to hit corners and easily drag the knee if they wanted to (deals gap, or even slow in parking lots on youtube) I think for me, I feel that I would not be able to ride deals gap and really throw the bike into the corners like a lot of people are able to. I want the confidence of going into a particular corner and know that even if I ever needed to really lean this bike over, then I know I can do it. Maybe it is more of a mental issues but as for now, I feel like my skills are limited. Yes, CSS is def on the calendar as a to do but will probably be a while before I can get out there. Please look at the picture I am attching, maybe everything isnt perfect but I feel that many guys would be a lot lower around this type of corner. I understand it is not needed to navigate properly, I just want to know if I hit a corner too fast sometime, I would have tyhe confidence in my tires, my bike and my skills to lay it over and continue on down the road. Thank you and everyones input has been helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhesto Posted October 4, 2012 Report Share Posted October 4, 2012 1349348729[/url]' post='29528']It's very common to feel like you are hanging off more than you really are, and to feel like you are leaning more than you really are. Almost everyone I know who saw pictures of themselves cornering on the track for the first time was surprised at how little lean angle they were using, and how little they were off the bike. I assume though that we are talking about street riding. If that is the case, then I wouldn't encourage you to pursue lean angle just for the sake of it. As others have mentioned, if your technique is good then the only ways to increase lean angle is to use a poor cornering line, use poor technique, or to simply go faster. There is no good arguement for the first two, and the latter might be a poor idea too depending on the road conditions, traffic, speed limits, etc. Get thee to the track. +1 On getting to the track...I used to be concerned with getting more lean angle and getting, "HERO SCARS" (as Keith calls them). Now after going to CSS I am considerably faster and SMOOTHER, than my friends that are leaned over farther and dragging knee. By not leaning as far I am able to get on the gas earlier and much harder than before. Occasionally the knee does touch down but during those times I am so focused that by the time I realize it the bike is back upright and the corner is over.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kcarbis Posted October 5, 2012 Report Share Posted October 5, 2012 Completely agree with the comments here, particularly nhesto. I felt EXACTLY as you boroboy, but after a few CSS schools I found the extra lean coming naturally as my confidence and speed came up. The big revelation for me was the Quick Turn. It was hard to get my head around it first, but once I did it made a huge difference. As nhesto says, focus on the basics, have sufficient reference points, quick turn, roll on the gase and don't worry about the lean angle...it'll come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Kane Posted October 5, 2012 Report Share Posted October 5, 2012 boroboy; Do I see this image correctly? Are you wearing jeans and a short sleeve shirt? Rainman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lnewqban Posted October 6, 2012 Report Share Posted October 6, 2012 ..... I want the confidence of going into a particular corner and know that even if I ever needed to really lean this bike over, then I know I can do it. Maybe it is more of a mental issues but as for now, I feel like my skills are limited.... It is important to understand that the bike is leaning exactly what it needs to lean to have a perfect balance of gravitational and centrifugal forces. Gravitational force or weight cannot be changed. Centrifugal force depends only on two things: radius of turn and speed. For the same curve, radius cannot be changed (unless your line can be improved); hence, increasing speed is the only way to increase the lean angle. Currently, you have a mental barrier of what speed seems to be safe for that particular turn. As others have explained, simply forcing yourself to overcoming that mental limit and going faster on street roads may get you into trouble (what if you suddenly panic and cross that yellow line at the wrong moment?). As you practice to ride in a more smoother manner, increased speed will come naturally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktk_ace Posted October 6, 2012 Report Share Posted October 6, 2012 read the book and DVD if you are not financially capable of lessons yet (like i do,just came out to society, gotta pay debts first) even with 7500 miles under my belt, after reading and watching the DVD like at least 10 times and practicing all thats inside, i'd say all the previous experience on the 7500miles are .... nearly all a worse off version or just wrong compared to whats taught in the book/dvd 2 years doesnt sound alot , if you have the determination, i'd say start ober and erase your bad habits first... you have lots judging from your replies oh and if a picture tells a thousand words., a video tells a million, much more info imho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boroboy69 Posted October 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2012 Yes to eeyone and thank you for the input! My apologies for posting a pic in jeans and a Tshirt. The day I took these pictures, I was practicing only some body pisitoning and Yes, completely I'll advised without PPE. This is not my standard safety equipment but I was a mile from my house just doing some basic changes and taking it easy. Nonetheless, I would never encourage this wear to anyone riding but I took a risk that day. Sorry, only pic I had to use as an example quickly on here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmckeen Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 So it sounds to me like what you're actually asking is not how to increase your lean angle in this one turn, but more how to increase your confidence in all turns. IMO the amount of lean you are carrying in that picture is just fine for street riding, but if you really want to improve your confidence in high lean situations I think you need to spend some time on a track, even if its just a local track day, keep practicing the fundamentals and the confidence will come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mblaster Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 If you just want more lean angle, dont try to hang off. Ride the pace like a motorcop, sit in the middle keep your torso and head in the middle and turn it in. You will definatly lean more...or crash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 If you just want more lean angle, dont try to hang off. Ride the pace like a motorcop, sit in the middle keep your torso and head in the middle and turn it in. You will definatly lean more...or crash. Bollox. You do not have to lean massively more and you most definitely do not increase the risk of crashing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YellowDuck Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 If you just want more lean angle, dont try to hang off. Ride the pace like a motorcop, sit in the middle keep your torso and head in the middle and turn it in. You will definatly lean more...or crash. Bollox. You do not have to lean massively more and you most definitely do not increase the risk of crashing. What's wrong with what he said? If you stay centered on the seat you will have to lean more at any given speed, and you do increase the risk of running out of corner clearance using that riding style. Sure it is an okay way to ride at a normal street pace, but one of the reasons that it is fun is that it requires significantly more lean angle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 My French may have gotten the better of me there I just reacted at the implication that not hanging off increase the risk of crashing, which it doesn't. If the bloke had been dragging his knee already, it's another situation. But it takes a lot of speed to ground out a modern sports motorcycle even sitting bolt upright, and well before you get there you will know what's going on. So basically my point was there's no call for inducing fear into riders that there's no cause for. YOMV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mugget Posted October 22, 2012 Report Share Posted October 22, 2012 Hey boroboy - this is a fairly common question, especially after people come to the realisation that they're not leaning as far as they thought! But it shouldn't be a surprise really, simply because the high lean angles made possible by modern motorbikes are not natural to a person. Add to that the fact that motorcycling is not at all intuitive and you have a recipe for very quickly entering unknown territory where feelings of discomfort will start to take over... I've made a couple of lengthy posts on the subject previously so I'm just going to try and post some snippets here, hope this helps: One thing I found helpful was to make sure that my subjective observations were as close as possible to the objective reality. That is - making sure that what I thought was happening was actually close to what was really happening. How many times have you been riding on the track thinking that you're really leaning it over? Then you see some photos the photographer has taken and the lean angle you imagined was nothing like what it actually was? That's a great example of where a subjective observation is very different to the objective reality. This can actually be quite dangerous because if a rider imagines that he is at the maximum lean, it will be a mental block and he will not lean past that point even though it may mean running off a road or track. How many times have we seen riders on the road or track who are clearly nowhere near full lean, yet they run off even though it could be prevented by simply leaning more? That's the first point - evaluate your subjective judgements against the objective facts, the closer they are, the better for you. Once you're able to make an accurate judgement of your lean angle, your brain will start to accept that you can lean further, and so you most likely will. But this leads to another question - how far can you lean, and how do you know when you're reaching the limit? ... Very few people are immediately comfortable with the considerable amount of lean angle that a modern sportsbike is capable of. This is because of what we're used to in daily life. On a natural surface our limit of traction is around 20 degrees. Be it running, or riding a horse - any more lean angle than around 20 degrees and we will lose traction. Because of this even new riders readily use up to 20 degrees of lean angle, but are very hesitant to use more because their life experience tells them that is the limit of traction. Simply recognising this should help by explaining why you may feel that way about lean. Thinking back to the fact that tyres will not just suddenly slide out - think about a slope that gradually becomes more steep. Most people have experience with a situation like this - imagine that you are walking up the slope... eventually you would stop walking because you know that you can't go any further without slipping - yet you don't actually slip on the slope. But your subconscious knows the exact point where you need to stop to avoid losing traction. How is this possible? Your subconscious knows the limit of friction from all those experiences through life - slipping on wet grass, sand, dirt etc. Your subconscious will also know this limit of friction while you're riding a motorcycle. There is a transition zone from static friction to sliding friction, your body knows this feeling of traction - so basically just go and ride. Constantly using questions like "can I lean more here" or "do I have enough traction" just takes your attention away from what it should be on - your subconscious knows the feeling of traction - why are you trying to re-educate yourself? Full post is here: http://forums.superb...961 One other thing... how open are you to the possibility of adjusting your goals? The reason I mention that is because when you start to use more efficient/"better" riding techniques (as can be learnt by attending CSS - seriously, I can't recommend it enough!) you will find that you actually ride faster and use less lean angle! Riding "sloppily" and lazily actually means you will need to use more lean angle for a given speed. Riding efficiently means that you will use less lean angle and have a better safety margin for the same speed. When I started out riding I did have the goal of getting a knee down... no harm in that, or setting that as a goal for yourself. But understand that putting a knee down is not a technique by itself that can be taught (at least I don't believe so). It's a product of correct riding technique which involves quite a few different aspects, if you're doing things well and things come together right - it will just happen. But having said that, from the time I start riding 6 years ago I have still not used a knee slider! Now I am not even concerned by it. It will happen when (if) it happens. It was interesting that a local Aussie racer posted this photo on his Instagram earlier in the year: Someone commented along the lines of "do you ever get your knee down"? What do you think the reply was?? Wayne said that he has been using the same pair of knee sliders for two years. Moral of the story - do not be overly concerned about knee slider wear as proof of cornering prowess (speed). You can ride very, very fast (in complete safety I might add...) all without putting a slider to the ground. It's a pretty big subject and there's quite a few different things that have helped me personally to get more comfortable with lean angle. But I'll leave you to mull over the above for a little bit. I'd be interested to know your thoughts on that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted October 22, 2012 Report Share Posted October 22, 2012 I want to learn to do this, but it scares me sh**less! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCGaQMgkzw8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lnewqban Posted October 22, 2012 Report Share Posted October 22, 2012 I want to learn to do this, but it scares me sh**less! http://www.motogymkhana.org/ http://amgrass.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted October 22, 2012 Report Share Posted October 22, 2012 I want to learn to do this, but it scares me sh**less! http://www.motogymkhana.org/ http://amgrass.com/ Thanks - perhaps a vacation to UK is in order... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2old Posted October 22, 2012 Report Share Posted October 22, 2012 I want to learn to do this, but it scares me sh**less! Looks to me like he never changes his body position throughout that entire video. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted October 22, 2012 Report Share Posted October 22, 2012 My guess is that there is not enough time and that it would simply upset the bike. Speed is probably always below 30 mph, which is not the same as cornering at 130 mph. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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