ktk_ace Posted November 3, 2012 Report Share Posted November 3, 2012 pardon me for asking this question, im stumped for a few weeks now that : If i want to hold the best line and provide the maximum stability for the bike for some corners ... I go way above the speed limit imposed on that turn (eg the SL is 50KM/H and I usually exit at near 70KM/H...) and if I go on the legal limit... I dont feel safe because everything is unoptimized and unstable (brake points,entry speed, quick turn,bike feels less stable etc) I dont like to speed for safety and financial reasons ; Im a law abiding citizen when possible But This "problem" have me in a dilemma for a few weeks now... (i dont feel safer at slower speeds for that corner) Anyone has a familiar problem like mine and solutions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted November 3, 2012 Report Share Posted November 3, 2012 Yes, I recently wrote how I've struggled to ride relaxed and well when riding slow. If my last ride is any indication, I've cracked the code; total concentration and riding relaxed and in accordance with the demands of the corner. You simply cannot ride the same way at 50 as you to at 100 kph around the same corner; you use less force the slower you go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rishi Posted November 3, 2012 Report Share Posted November 3, 2012 I dont like to speed for safety and financial reasons ; Im a law abiding citizen when possible It's interesting that you think there are safety reasons for adhering to arbitrary speed limits. There are financial ones though, absolutely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktk_ace Posted November 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2012 I dont like to speed for safety and financial reasons ; Im a law abiding citizen when possible It's interesting that you think there are safety reasons for adhering to arbitrary speed limits. There are financial ones though, absolutely. for some roads , esp straights with intersections, i think its a good idea , the reaction time buffer for unexpected incidents is pretty ok of you are in the legal limit. for some corners, nah... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmckeen Posted November 4, 2012 Report Share Posted November 4, 2012 I do find I have a hard time applying quick turn on the street, at the much reduced pace I either have to turn in so late that I can't really enjoy the corner's or I just end up way too tight and have to open up my line. I know its called "Street Lazy" in ToTW2 but I find its more "fun" to be a little lazy with my turn in at a safer street pace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rishi Posted November 4, 2012 Report Share Posted November 4, 2012 I dont like to speed for safety and financial reasons ; Im a law abiding citizen when possible It's interesting that you think there are safety reasons for adhering to arbitrary speed limits. There are financial ones though, absolutely. for some roads , esp straights with intersections, i think its a good idea , the reaction time buffer for unexpected incidents is pretty ok of you are in the legal limit. for some corners, nah... Knowing how many km/h you're travelling is not useful information. That buffer you're talking about is a vision skill that needs to be learnt. Simply travelling at the number shown on the sign tells you nothing. This false sense of security is one of the fatal flaws with speed limits in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktk_ace Posted November 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2012 I dont like to speed for safety and financial reasons ; Im a law abiding citizen when possible It's interesting that you think there are safety reasons for adhering to arbitrary speed limits. There are financial ones though, absolutely. for some roads , esp straights with intersections, i think its a good idea , the reaction time buffer for unexpected incidents is pretty ok of you are in the legal limit. for some corners, nah... Knowing how many km/h you're travelling is not useful information. That buffer you're talking about is a vision skill that needs to be learnt. Simply travelling at the number shown on the sign tells you nothing. This false sense of security is one of the fatal flaws with speed limits in general. Vision skills are near useless if its a blind 90 degree corner intersection. esp when someone rushes out without warning or looking when you have right of way. If the speed limit is 50 BUT my sampled reflex buffer is much less, i wont ride at 50 ; i'll ride slighty below my sampled safe speed (ie 35-40) PS> i am in no way saying vision skills are useless in other situations; in fact the skill have saved my bacon multiple times on public roads when there are no/little blind spots. Problem is i live i an urban built up area with lots of blind spots due to crappy public infrastructure planning, hence much more exceptions come in. Does this count as some sort of 10$ rule subset/ mode? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktk_ace Posted November 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2012 I do find I have a hard time applying quick turn on the street, at the much reduced pace I either have to turn in so late that I can't really enjoy the corner's or I just end up way too tight and have to open up my line. I know its called "Street Lazy" in ToTW2 but I find its more "fun" to be a little lazy with my turn in at a safer street pace maybe im having trouble differntiating fun and/or stabilty who knows, maybe i want both and sometimes the speed limit goes outa the window? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rishi Posted November 5, 2012 Report Share Posted November 5, 2012 Vision skills are near useless if its a blind 90 degree corner intersection. esp when someone rushes out without warning or looking when you have right of way. I would argue your vision skills are the only thing that will help you in that situation. Your vision skills will tell you how much space you actually have and therefore how fast you should be travelling and also where you should be positioned. Again, the number written on a sign on the side of the road does nothing for you. Except perhaps give a false sense of safety. If the speed limit is 50 BUT my sampled reflex buffer is much less, i wont ride at 50 ; i'll ride slighty below my sampled safe speed (ie 35-40) And if the limit is 50 but you feel you can safely go much quicker? PS> i am in no way saying vision skills are useless in other situations; in fact the skill have saved my bacon multiple times on public roads when there are no/little blind spots. Problem is i live i an urban built up area with lots of blind spots due to crappy public infrastructure planning, hence much more exceptions come in. It would be far better then to never look at your speedo and instead always be aware of these potential hazards. Again, knowing your speed in numbers is of no benefit. Does this count as some sort of 10$ rule subset/ mode? Absolutely. How much of a distraction is it to have to know how fast you're travelling at every point regardless of the conditions just to avoid getting fined for a non-event that is exceeding a politically chosen value. How much more relaxed would you be knowing you could ride any road using only visual skills and not having to remember the limit/note changes in the limit/worry about getting fined? More attention for other key elements of riding and less general stress? Sounds safer to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktk_ace Posted November 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2012 Problem is i live i an urban built up area with lots of blind spots due to crappy public infrastructure planning, hence much more exceptions come in. It would be far better then to never look at your speedo and instead always be aware of these potential hazards. Again, knowing your speed in numbers is of no benefit. Im sure if theres a speeding camera in front, looking at the speedo to make sure you are within the legal limit is ultra important on public roads to safeguard my wallet . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lnewqban Posted November 5, 2012 Report Share Posted November 5, 2012 If i want to hold the best line and provide the maximum stability for the bike for some corners ... I go way above the speed limit imposed on that turn............. and if I go on the legal limit... I dont feel safe because everything is unoptimized and unstable (brake points,entry speed, quick turn,bike feels less stable etc) I dont like to speed for safety and financial reasons ; Im a law abiding citizen when possible ....... Anyone has a familiar problem like mine and solutions? No, I don't have that problem. I have been riding on difficult streets for so many years that I unconsciously adapt my speed to the conditions. It amuses me many times that the speed I choose is very close to the posted speed, except in areas marked for 20~25 mph (highly enforced). Maybe is just that most of the speed limits are reasonable here in Florida, where I ride. On the freeway is different, everybody goes 15~20 above the posted 65 mph (some go much higher); hence, I feel insecure if I try abiding the law there. For me, the dangers of traffic and distracted drivers have much higher weight than brake points, entry speed or quick turn. Regarding stability, yes you will feel more gyroscopic effect at high speeds, but it is not difficult to stay stable and in total control at lower speeds when you get used to them. In your case, I would practice slow and emergency maneuvers in parking lots as much as possible, making them more and more complicated with time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktk_ace Posted November 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2012 If i want to hold the best line and provide the maximum stability for the bike for some corners ... I go way above the speed limit imposed on that turn............. and if I go on the legal limit... I dont feel safe because everything is unoptimized and unstable (brake points,entry speed, quick turn,bike feels less stable etc) I dont like to speed for safety and financial reasons ; Im a law abiding citizen when possible ....... Anyone has a familiar problem like mine and solutions? No, I don't have that problem. I have been riding on difficult streets for so many years that I unconsciously adapt my speed to the conditions. It amuses me many times that the speed I choose is very close to the posted speed, except in areas marked for 20~25 mph (highly enforced). Maybe is just that most of the speed limits are reasonable here in Florida, where I ride. On the freeway is different, everybody goes 15~20 above the posted 65 mph (some go much higher); hence, I feel insecure if I try abiding the law there. For me, the dangers of traffic and distracted drivers have much higher weight than brake points, entry speed or quick turn. Regarding stability, yes you will feel more gyroscopic effect at high speeds, but it is not difficult to stay stable and in total control at lower speeds when you get used to them. In your case, I would practice slow and emergency maneuvers in parking lots as much as possible, making them more and more complicated with time. I'll keep that in mind, thanks!! PS. its wonderful to have reasonable speed limits ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotfoot Posted November 5, 2012 Report Share Posted November 5, 2012 pardon me for asking this question, im stumped for a few weeks now that : If i want to hold the best line and provide the maximum stability for the bike for some corners ... I go way above the speed limit imposed on that turn (eg the SL is 50KM/H and I usually exit at near 70KM/H...) and if I go on the legal limit... I dont feel safe because everything is unoptimized and unstable (brake points,entry speed, quick turn,bike feels less stable etc) I dont like to speed for safety and financial reasons ; Im a law abiding citizen when possible But This "problem" have me in a dilemma for a few weeks now... (i dont feel safer at slower speeds for that corner) Anyone has a familiar problem like mine and solutions? I wonder if a much lower horsepower bike with lower gearing would help with that. I have a cool little YSR50; at 45 mph I am in 5th gear. I have no trouble getting a good throttle roll-on even on regular public streets, and the speed limits hardly seem like an imposition on that thing. If you can get it up to 65mph it feels like you're going 100mph. By comparison riding the 1000cc bike on the street feels like a lot of work; feels like I'm in first or second gear all the time, it's hard to keep from speeding and it's basically like riding a racehorse in a small pen - all that potential energy and nowhere to let it run. Regarding Rishi's comment about posted speed signs - I do use those on blind unfamiliar mountain roads as a guide - if the normal limit is 50mph and a curve speed sign says 15mph, at least I have been warned that I better slow down a whole lot - especially if the conditions are slippery. Also sometimes those speed limit signs are there for reasons you wouldn't otherwise know - the presence of children or wildlife, blind driveways or construction, etc. - so I do respect them and I save my speeding for the racetrack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted November 5, 2012 Report Share Posted November 5, 2012 Hm, Hotfoot, I find the riding large bikes I'm most often in top gear from 30-40 mph on during normal riding. For me, it's natural to use as few rpm as possible without labouring the engine. And a litre bike have very impressive acceleration from 40 mph in top gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktk_ace Posted November 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2012 pardon me for asking this question, im stumped for a few weeks now that : If i want to hold the best line and provide the maximum stability for the bike for some corners ... I go way above the speed limit imposed on that turn (eg the SL is 50KM/H and I usually exit at near 70KM/H...) and if I go on the legal limit... I dont feel safe because everything is unoptimized and unstable (brake points,entry speed, quick turn,bike feels less stable etc) I dont like to speed for safety and financial reasons ; Im a law abiding citizen when possible But This "problem" have me in a dilemma for a few weeks now... (i dont feel safer at slower speeds for that corner) Anyone has a familiar problem like mine and solutions? I wonder if a much lower horsepower bike with lower gearing would help with that. I have a cool little YSR50; at 45 mph I am in 5th gear. I have no trouble getting a good throttle roll-on even on regular public streets, and the speed limits hardly seem like an imposition on that thing. If you can get it up to 65mph it feels like you're going 100mph. By comparison riding the 1000cc bike on the street feels like a lot of work; feels like I'm in first or second gear all the time, it's hard to keep from speeding and it's basically like riding a racehorse in a small pen - all that potential energy and nowhere to let it run. Regarding Rishi's comment about posted speed signs - I do use those on blind unfamiliar mountain roads as a guide - if the normal limit is 50mph and a curve speed sign says 15mph, at least I have been warned that I better slow down a whole lot - especially if the conditions are slippery. Also sometimes those speed limit signs are there for reasons you wouldn't otherwise know - the presence of children or wildlife, blind driveways or construction, etc. - so I do respect them and I save my speeding for the racetrack. Much appreciated reply from a coach ^^ my bike ... aw well it only has 9.8 ponies...but its fun as heck on non gradient / downhill corners. not so great for uphills obviously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mugget Posted November 30, 2012 Report Share Posted November 30, 2012 If your brake and turn points etc. are optimized for higher speeds, and feel awkward at lower speeds, wouldn't the easiest solution be to select new (correct) brake and turn markers for the speed limit? Also it could mean that you might want to use some "lazy steering" or tone down the quick steer & use an earlier turn point if there isn't enough space in your lane? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csmith12 Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 I think I have found a nice balance between feel and "somewhere" near legal speeds but more importantly adds a bit of safety to my street riding. I almost always delay apex every corner. The main benefits that relate to this thread are: A good throttle roll A longer line of sight through the corner A quick turn into the corner Ability to more accurately find apex and a good line Increased time to set a good entry speed At least for me all those combined feel stable and inspire as much confidence as taking a corner at 100. Although, I find nothing really wrong with a nice lazy cruise either. And I sometimes prefer my ninja 250 on the street for a variety of reasons but the main one is... I can ride it at a slower speed and can somewhat provide an "aggressive" tone to the ride without all the extra stuff coming along for the ride, if you know what I mean. What makes you feel unstable in a corner at lower speeds? Possibly the same line and lean angle with the absence of required speed to equalize everything out? Is your track riding leaking into your street riding? And finally, do you HAVE to go fast in order to enjoy the ride? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktk_ace Posted December 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 I think I have found a nice balance between feel and "somewhere" near legal speeds but more importantly adds a bit of safety to my street riding. I almost always delay apex every corner. The main benefits that relate to this thread are: A good throttle roll A longer line of sight through the corner A quick turn into the corner Ability to more accurately find apex and a good line Increased time to set a good entry speed At least for me all those combined feel stable and inspire as much confidence as taking a corner at 100. Although, I find nothing really wrong with a nice lazy cruise either. And I sometimes prefer my ninja 250 on the street for a variety of reasons but the main one is... I can ride it at a slower speed and can somewhat provide an "aggressive" tone to the ride without all the extra stuff coming along for the ride, if you know what I mean. What makes you feel unstable in a corner at lower speeds? Possibly the same line and lean angle with the absence of required speed to equalize everything out? Is your track riding leaking into your street riding? And finally, do you HAVE to go fast in order to enjoy the ride? Im guesstimating that the V type orientated profile of my rear tire likes bigger lean + higer G forces to have the feedback of being firmly "planted" . Road widths are really small where im riding so the visual advantage of a few more degrees actually saved me quite a couple of times. Quick turn saved me too many times imho so going the way of the lazy steer ... i dont want a compromise... Also the temps have dropped 4-8 degrees , its winter so the shock fluids might have a factor in too i guess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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