JK13 Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 I hope I am misunderstanding. It sounds like y'all will go an entire session focusing corner to corner. How much time do you have for analysis when you get back to that particular set if you approach it this way? My best example is at Texas World Speedway. One of the trickiest set of turns there is followed by a nice long straight away. I track out until I know that I am just twisting the throttle and then I back off to mentally review the turns I just came out of. If I were at a track that didn't allow for a long straight to think on, I'd track out and once I got to a section that I consider to be separate, I back off until muscle memory can take over to get me through. I still have the exit at a fast pace, but I allow myself to analyze the set after the fact. And a clarification, if I'm working on a section, what am I working on? Approach, turn in, clip point, exit. This accounts for setting up for the next turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pepsi Drinker Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 Well I doubt any coaches do it that way. After all they need to be able to ride almost flawlessly while following others and analyzing their riding then remembering what they saw in order to discuss it after the fact. But I have found some solice in videoing myself or having someone else follow and video so I can analyze after the fact and just concentrate corner to corner or maybe even a few corners ahead on the track when I actually go run hard and fast. When those options are not available, lap times end up being the measure, which I find is a little more vague as that is only an average over the entire lap and doesn't isolate individual corners or even more break down the entry, middle and exit of each corner. That is one area where lots of telemetry can be a huge benefit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JK13 Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 Problem with lap times and video is that you're waiting until after the session to decide what changes would work. I'm not saying you go snail pace slow. I'm sure we are all capable of holding a decent pace without too much thought. My point is that there is definitely a good reason to not push it to the max at all times on track. Edit: Also, I can't speak for the coaches other than saying that they are not working on improving their times. They are focusing on the student. I'd venture a guess that they might suggest their pace when instructing is not actually anywhere near their 100%, but that's just speculation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotfoot Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 Problem with lap times and video is that you're waiting until after the session to decide what changes would work. I'm not saying you go snail pace slow. I'm sure we are all capable of holding a decent pace without too much thought. My point is that there is definitely a good reason to not push it to the max at all times on track. Edit: Also, I can't speak for the coaches other than saying that they are not working on improving their times. They are focusing on the student. I'd venture a guess that they might suggest their pace when instructing is not actually anywhere near their 100%, but that's just speculation. As a coach I am definitely not riding at 100%, I have to have free attention available to observe the student, and to communicate with the student as needed (hand signals, etc.). Also, I never ride at my absolute max pace at the school, I always keep a margin for safety to react to anything unexpected and observe other riders (even if they are not my student - all coaches watch all other riders to some extent, for safety reasons, and would intervene if someone was riding in some unsafe way.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 Do you want it bad enough? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOWq0EHe_w8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotfoot Posted November 23, 2013 Report Share Posted November 23, 2013 Different people have different priorities, but I personally completely fail to see why one would ride on a track without constantly pushing to the max, whether it is working on a specific technique or a specific corner - but without going slow anywhere else. Question for you. Let's say you're working on a specific set of turns. You change your line slightly and attack the set. Now you're out of the turns you were interested in and on to the next set. How do you review your line change—in order to determine if it needs to be adjusted on the next lap—while simultaneously "pushing to the max" on the rest of the track? If you're dedicating any mental capacity to thinking about the turns you wanted to work on, can you really go 100% on the track ahead of you? Allright, since no one came up with the Twist reference to answer this, here is a teaser, from Mr. Code himself: "How do you develop this wonderful ability to ride and observe what you’re doing at the same time? You simply decide to do it. You make an effort to look at what you are doing while you are doing it. Try it. If you already have a record of your lap times on the track, go out and make an effort to observe yourself. The first thing you’ll notice will be that you went slower while doing both the riding and observing. It costs a lot of attention to do both things at once. You won’t be willing to ride as hard." Want to read more about it? It's in "A Twist of the Wrist" Chapter Two. It covers, in detail, exactly how to do what JK13 is asking - how to observe yourself (or observe an area needing improvement), how to analyze it, and how to decide what to do next, and how to implement the change and then evaluate it. It's good stuff, and way too much to type here. (BTW - If you are impatient, like me, you can download the eBook instantly nowadays, no more waiting for the hard copy to show up in the mail.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScrmnDuc Posted November 23, 2013 Report Share Posted November 23, 2013 The question above is answered in at least one of Keith's books - who wants to be first to find it? While Thinking this Through I will try to apply the Soft Science before Trial and Error occurs Different people have different priorities, but I personally completely fail to see why one would ride on a track without constantly pushing to the max, whether it is working on a specific technique or a specific corner - but without going slow anywhere else. Question for you. Let's say you're working on a specific set of turns. You change your line slightly and attack the set. Now you're out of the turns you were interested in and on to the next set. How do you review your line change—in order to determine if it needs to be adjusted on the next lap—while simultaneously "pushing to the max" on the rest of the track? If you're dedicating any mental capacity to thinking about the turns you wanted to work on, can you really go 100% on the track ahead of you? Let's start with when did you decide to "work" on these turns? Was it before you entered the track or right before you got to the set of turns? If it were before you entered the track, how much time did you spend on your "plan of attack"? Did you spend 5 seconds, 30 minutes, or days +? Did you sketch it out on paper or just in your mind? OR, did you think: Hmm, I'll try this different this time and lets see what happens? Would you think that you can "push to the max" on the rest of the track while you are thinking about the section that you are working on? I hope I am misunderstanding. It sounds like y'all will go an entire session focusing corner to corner. How much time do you have for analysis when you get back to that particular set if you approach it this way? And a clarification, if I'm working on a section, what am I working on? Approach, turn in, clip point, exit. This accounts for setting up for the next turn. I think what is being said is their attention is on the corner at hand, not the next or last. Pending on you, you are the only person that can determine when and where you analysis your performance. What you are working on is what you think you need to work on. If you have a turn that you think you can enter faster what would you work on for "that" turn? Would you work on exit speed for that turn if you think the turn entry is slow? Do you see where this is going? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted November 23, 2013 Report Share Posted November 23, 2013 Re working on turns - I think I've mentioned before how KR was struggling at Suzuka? Anyway, after trying fruitlessly to ride faster, he retreated to his hotel, lay on the bed for 90 minutes, returned to the track, proclaimed he had found 2 seconds and promptly went out and ran 2 seconds faster than before. In other words, it can pay off to bring the mind to the party, not just the throttle hand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScrmnDuc Posted November 23, 2013 Report Share Posted November 23, 2013 Hotfoot, you must have posted your last reply while i was working on mine. Ah the joys of being a slow typist. I was thinking that it was covered more in Soft Science, but I'll reread that section in Twist 1 later today while enjoying a 2 hour flight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotfoot Posted November 23, 2013 Report Share Posted November 23, 2013 Hotfoot, you must have posted your last reply while i was working on mine. Ah the joys of being a slow typist. I was thinking that it was covered more in Soft Science, but I'll reread that section in Twist 1 later today while enjoying a 2 hour flight. I was thinking of Soft Science when I put the challenge out there, and I got a kick out of your post. But, since I think more people have Twist already on their bookshelf I decided to post that one. Soft Science really talks about making a plan, which speaks to Eirik's post above - taking time to think it through, OFF the track, can result in immediate gains ON the track. Somewhere there is a great quote from Keith about being able to separate a session where you are making observations and trying out new things versus a "go for it" session where you are focused completely on going fast; I think that is in one of his articles, I'll see if I can find it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScrmnDuc Posted November 23, 2013 Report Share Posted November 23, 2013 Wow, that was a close call. My trip got canceled as I was getting ready to park the car at the airport. So, I'll read that section of Twist 1 later. I'm glad you mentioned that you were thinking of Soft Science when you posted the challenge. I reckon my thought train wasn't too far off then. BTW, how are your track notes coming along? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotfoot Posted November 23, 2013 Report Share Posted November 23, 2013 Wow, that was a close call. My trip got canceled as I was getting ready to park the car at the airport. So, I'll read that section of Twist 1 later. I'm glad you mentioned that you were thinking of Soft Science when you posted the challenge. I reckon my thought train wasn't too far off then. BTW, how are your track notes coming along? I'm sidelined for the moment, broke my leg. I was NOT on a bike, which proves that walking is more dangerous than riding a motorcycle. About four more weeks in a cast... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScrmnDuc Posted November 24, 2013 Report Share Posted November 24, 2013 That's a stinker! At least you will have time to get your leg strength back before next riding season. I take it that you are increasing your already vast training knowledge during this "down time." Yes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktk_ace Posted November 25, 2013 Report Share Posted November 25, 2013 Wow, that was a close call. My trip got canceled as I was getting ready to park the car at the airport. So, I'll read that section of Twist 1 later. I'm glad you mentioned that you were thinking of Soft Science when you posted the challenge. I reckon my thought train wasn't too far off then. BTW, how are your track notes coming along? I'm sidelined for the moment, broke my leg. I was NOT on a bike, which proves that walking is more dangerous than riding a motorcycle. About four more weeks in a cast... Get well soon Hotfoot!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Kane Posted November 26, 2013 Report Share Posted November 26, 2013 I'm sidelined for the moment, broke my leg. I was NOT on a bike, which proves that walking is more dangerous than riding a motorcycle. About four more weeks in a cast......so Hottie how did this happen? Having just gotten out of a flex cast myself inquiring minds would like to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotfoot Posted November 26, 2013 Report Share Posted November 26, 2013 I'm sidelined for the moment, broke my leg. I was NOT on a bike, which proves that walking is more dangerous than riding a motorcycle. About four more weeks in a cast......so Hottie how did this happen? Having just gotten out of a flex cast myself inquiring minds would like to know. WELL... as you may recall, I have horses. My horses are very tall, and I'm pretty short, so I use a mounting block to get on, especially when riding bareback. A couple of weeks ago I was standing on the mounting block getting ready to get on my horse, and he moved away a step - so I stepped down off the block, and my foot landed on an uneven piece of ground and twisted under me. It probably should have been a sprained ankle but I'm very flexible, so my ankle just rolled all the way under until my fibula snapped. Audibly. I don't seem to have any tendon or ligament damage, which is good news since those sort of injuries take longer to heal than broken bones, but the bad news is that I'll be in a cast for a total of 6 weeks... so I have about a month to go. It's my left leg, a complete mid-shaft fibula fracture. Not that exciting of a story - it happened in my backyard! Naturally, everyone assumes it was a motorcycle injury (despite the fact that I have NEVER been hurt riding a motorcycle). I need a sign to wear around my neck that says "No, I did NOT fall off my motorcycle!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktk_ace Posted November 27, 2013 Report Share Posted November 27, 2013 I'm sidelined for the moment, broke my leg. I was NOT on a bike, which proves that walking is more dangerous than riding a motorcycle. About four more weeks in a cast......so Hottie how did this happen? Having just gotten out of a flex cast myself inquiring minds would like to know. WELL... as you may recall, I have horses. My horses are very tall, and I'm pretty short, so I use a mounting block to get on, especially when riding bareback. A couple of weeks ago I was standing on the mounting block getting ready to get on my horse, and he moved away a step - so I stepped down off the block, and my foot landed on an uneven piece of ground and twisted under me. It probably should have been a sprained ankle but I'm very flexible, so my ankle just rolled all the way under until my fibula snapped. Audibly. I don't seem to have any tendon or ligament damage, which is good news since those sort of injuries take longer to heal than broken bones, but the bad news is that I'll be in a cast for a total of 6 weeks... so I have about a month to go. It's my left leg, a complete mid-shaft fibula fracture. Not that exciting of a story - it happened in my backyard! Naturally, everyone assumes it was a motorcycle injury (despite the fact that I have NEVER been hurt riding a motorcycle). I need a sign to wear around my neck that says "No, I did NOT fall off my motorcycle!" You should totally have a sign on the plastr saying " the horse did it" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YellowDuck Posted November 27, 2013 Report Share Posted November 27, 2013 Oh, gross! Anyway, glad it is a (relatively) uncomplicated injury. If they told you only six weeks you should be flattered - that's what they would do for a teenager. An old fart like me gets told 8 to 10.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotfoot Posted November 27, 2013 Report Share Posted November 27, 2013 Oh, gross! Anyway, glad it is a (relatively) uncomplicated injury. If they told you only six weeks you should be flattered - that's what they would do for a teenager. An old fart like me gets told 8 to 10.... I was, actually; I'm a long way from a teenager myself so I was expecting a longer timeframe too. I got an X-ray last week and after two weeks it is already showing some bone healing, so the doc reduced it to five weeks, if things keep going as they are, and I am VERY pleased with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khp Posted November 28, 2013 Report Share Posted November 28, 2013 Hotfoot, Sorry to hear about your broken fibula. I've heard that riding organic horsepower is more dangerous than mechanical horsepowers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted November 28, 2013 Report Share Posted November 28, 2013 The risk of an accident is 1000 times higher with horse-back riding than using heroin, according to a recent newspaper article. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YellowDuck Posted November 29, 2013 Report Share Posted November 29, 2013 The risk of an accident is 1000 times higher with horse-back riding than using heroin, according to a recent newspaper article. I think the risk of financial ruin may also be higher with horses than heroin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotfoot Posted November 29, 2013 Report Share Posted November 29, 2013 The risk of an accident is 1000 times higher with horse-back riding than using heroin, according to a recent newspaper article. I think the risk of financial ruin may also be higher with horses than heroin. Hee hee, some truth in all of these statements! One big difference between horses and bikes - bikes are expensive when you using them (tires, fuel, track fees, etc.) and horses are expensive whether you are using them or not! Food, housing, vet care, etc is really not mileage based. On the other hand, I can look out the window and watch my horses run and play and they are amazing. The bikes just sit there, in between rides; they are cool looking but not really very good company, they don't whinny to me when I open the door or frolic around looking for attention. Sitting around on the couch watching TV is cheap and probably very safe but I am certainly tired of doing it!!!! I can hardly wait to return to my expensive and dangerous hobbies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mugget Posted November 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 This is going a bit off topic - but how would you compare the feeling of riding a horse with riding a motorbike? I always wondered about that... not too sure I'd do well on a horse, boy they are tall! Never ridden one or been around them much, actually the thought of climbing on a horse scares me! Gotta respect horses and a good rider though, still some impressive lean. So I guess hanging off isn't such a big thing when riding a horse... vision looks spot on, at least for the rider. Not sure what the horse is looking at, but as long as at least one of them knows where they're going it should all work out, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YellowDuck Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 Uh, yeah....I'm gonna go ahead and say that she should probably be wearing a helmet.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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