Not Trailing Braking & Lap Times

[cellige]

So I would like to bring this back up

 

I know there are lots of threads on trail braking but it always delves back into it being necessary for racers to make sure people don't pass or to pass themselves.

 

What keith code has shown in his videos and books to me makes a lot of sense, that with a quick flick you create the better line and therefor get to less of a lean and back on throttle sooner. But does that reflect in lap times?

 

Watching some of the Isle of Man races, these guys set lap records while heavily trail braking. Could it be faster if they flicked quicker? Can they not flick any quicker than they are because of their high speed?

[ktk_ace]

It (CSS materials) made ME quicker. thats all that matters to me.

[YellowDuck]

This is a great topic. Personally, my natural style is to trail brake, but I am not clear on whether or not it makes me faster. I really need to experiment with both methods systematically. I actually love the feeling of being totally off the brakes and turning really hard when I force myself to do it - it takes less brain power because I know I can turn as hard as I want without losing the front. Trail braking by comparison is quite spooky, and uses up attention I could be applying to making my lines more precise.

[tmckeen]

How many corners at the IoM do you see them knee down at full lean vs a MotoGP race ?

 

Techniques tend to vary depending on the racing style and machinery, in MotoGP it is necessary to trail brake, even at full lean, to load the front tire enough to make use of the Bridgestone slicks, attempting to use the same technique on a street tire could easily overload the front and result in a crash.

[Pepsi Drinker]

Interesting, my normal style has me trailbraking til I start adding power sometime after getting to my set lean angle and has been this way since I started riding decades ago. But for fun I went out and ran an entire day at the track of trying hard to not trail brake at all.

I will say I was unsuccessful in the never trailbraking department as it just didn't feel right to me and when I was upping the pace it was occassionally drawing my attention away from other things. My last stint 30 minute on the track I decided to revert back to my normal trailbraking style. I ran nearly 5 seconds a lap faster even though the sun had set and it was under the lights in temps in the upper 40's instead of a sunny mid 60's during the day.

By no means was this scientific nor does it even prove anything other than I personally was more comfortable with my own style rather than an opposing style I was forcing upon myself.

[faffi]

How many corners at the IoM do you see them knee down at full lean vs a MotoGP race ?

 

 

 

Be your own judge

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE94nHsAD0Y

[Stroker]

The TT is way harder than regular GP circuits....remember they used to run GP's there and the riders protested saying it was unsafe, leading to the cancellation.

[cellige]

Interesting comments, but my question still stands With a quick flick the radius of the turn will always be larger than a slow flick. Without the presence of other riders I don't see how machinery, track type or anything would change that?

[ktk_ace]

Interesting comments, but my question still stands With a quick flick the radius of the turn will always be larger than a slow flick. Without the presence of other riders I don't see how machinery, track type or anything would change that?

err... shouldnt that be the other way around?

[cellige]

Nope The largest radius of curvature would be a straight line. smallest would be whatever your bike does at full fork lock. Thats how I was using the terms anyways, your free to use them as you wish !

[tmckeen]

 

How many corners at the IoM do you see them knee down at full lean vs a MotoGP race ?

 

 

 

Be your own judge

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE94nHsAD0Y

 

 

Impressive stuff, but it also proves my point, I didn't say they are never Knee down in corners on the TT course, but they are not on the limit 55+ degrees of Lean in nearly every corner like a MotoGP race, the nature of the course is such that you simply cannot push the limit everywhere like you can on a race track. Its a completely different style of racing, and as such the techniques differ some

[tmckeen]

Nope The largest radius of curvature would be a straight line. smallest would be whatever your bike does at full fork lock. Thats how I was using the terms anyways, your free to use them as you wish !

 

 

the quicker your steering input the tighter your radius will be, on the overall topic of is trail braking faster then not trail braking you simply cannot look at a single corner, you have to look at a minimum a segment time, one technique carries more speed into the corner whilst the other carries more speed out of the corner, depending on the exact nature of the track / road you are on one may be faster than the other through a section of track, and depending on machinery one may result in a better overall lap time. The " Best Technique " changes constantly depending on a number of variables, it's actually part of what makes being on the podium in MotoGP so difficult now, you can no longer ride with a single technique around the entire track, but have to tailor you technique to each individual corner

[Pepsi Drinker]

I think the quicker your steering input the quicker you can get onto your desired radius, but it doesn't change that radius or the time in that radius. It only changes the amount of time spent getting to the desired lean angle, which is still time wasted. IMO

Well okay it also changes the distance traveled while getting to your desired lean angle/radius.

[ktk_ace]

 

Nope The largest radius of curvature would be a straight line. smallest would be whatever your bike does at full fork lock. Thats how I was using the terms anyways, your free to use them as you wish !

 

 

the quicker your steering input the tighter your radius will be, on the overall topic of is trail braking faster then not trail braking you simply cannot look at a single corner, you have to look at a minimum a segment time, one technique carries more speed into the corner whilst the other carries more speed out of the corner, depending on the exact nature of the track / road you are on one may be faster than the other through a section of track, and depending on machinery one may result in a better overall lap time. The " Best Technique " changes constantly depending on a number of variables, it's actually part of what makes being on the podium in MotoGP so difficult now, you can no longer ride with a single technique around the entire track, but have to tailor you technique to each individual corner

 

 

Only applies to motogp.

 

try it on much lesser bikes with small lean angles (try a 10" scooter) ... which technique comes out becomes very clear...

 

one more second scraping the sidestand / center stand = one more second endangering oneself and others around you as you up your risk of running out of lean angle/ exposing yourself to danger .

[Stroker]

Isn't it that as you go faster, the bike is more resistant to changing direction?

[fritzdacat]

IMHO trailbraking is good only for passing other drivers or defending the inside line, , but the fastest way to go through a corner is to quickflip and be on the gas early (CSS-style)

[Stroker]

I don't think so, trailing the brakes a bit helps get the bike turned.

[ktk_ace]

IMHO trailbraking is good only for passing other drivers or defending the inside line, , but the fastest way to go through a corner is to quickflip and be on the gas early (CSS-style)

 

Yup

 

thats why there is the no brakes drill~

[FieryRobot]

I thought the no brakes drill was about getting a sense of speed. That's what I remember being told at least...

[Stroker]

You are correct.It helps you understand just how fast you can really go.

[Hotfoot]

I don't think so, trailing the brakes a bit helps get the bike turned.

Assuming a typical 90 degree corner (no decreasing radius or banking or other factors) - to get the most effective turning of the bike, what is the exact moment you should be releasing the brakes?

[Stroker]

I let off at about 30-40% of the turn ( apex is 50 % ) so near or at the apex i am off the brakes and on the gas.I trail the rear brake a little longer than the front.I let off trailing the front brakes before dialing in any serious lean.

 

I have not ridden for a bit, so i am foggy on the details.

[Hotfoot]

I let off at about 30-40% of the turn ( apex is 50 % ) so near or at the apex i am off the brakes and on the gas.I trail the rear brake a little longer than the front.I let off trailing the front brakes before dialing in any serious lean.

 

I have not ridden for a bit, so i am foggy on the details.

At what point in the turn, in your example above, do you achieve your full lean angle?

[Stroker]

I usually do not, as the roads are too dusty and the tires and brakes on local bikes are basic.

 

On a track or private roads, i would be leaning as much as i could at the middle third of the turn.

[tmckeen]

I believe what Hotfoot meant by " full lean angle " was not achieve your maximum possible lean angle, but your set lean angle for a given corner, be it 15 or 45 degrees