gianco Posted July 18, 2019 Report Share Posted July 18, 2019 today at track, after many times of trackday, i realized that meanwhile i drag knee down, i'm pushing on external handlebar. i know is really wrong. as soon as i realized it, i tryed to release pressure, suddently bike, leaned more and turned more inside the cornering, but i felt i was"too slow " for that "moment" i think it's the fear of lean angle, instinctively i try to keep bike upright. how i can, force myself to not push outside bar? ( i have a bmw s1000xr) i'm that in photo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apollo Posted July 18, 2019 Report Share Posted July 18, 2019 Fear of leaning too far can be one factor for keeping pressure on the handlebars. Part of it may simply be reminding yourself not to have pressure. Another bigger thing may be addressing why you feel fear. Maybe it is a visual issue with looking far enough down the track. Also, are you supporting your body weight through holding the handlebars? This may also cause the tense arms if you are trying to hold yourself up by gripping the handlebar. Fixing this requires improving your lower body contact with the motorcycle. This might be addressed by looking at how you use your outside knee to contact the tank. If you were to give a percentage (%), how secure does your outside knee to tank contact feel when cornering? P.S. It's a bit of a trek, but not too far to consider checking out the UK operations of the school to have a coach work in-person on these issues. Often, an external set of eyes can identify issues that you're unaware of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobie Fair Posted July 18, 2019 Report Share Posted July 18, 2019 In Level 1 we have a Steering Drill, that if properly done (can't usually be done in the wet), should be able to help this issue. As Apollo said, sometimes a trained external eye can help. If you can't get to a school, we'll see if we can offer a suggestion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gianco Posted July 19, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 for sure if i was near , i choose to go that school👍🏻👍🏻 but i'm in italy.. on day 30 of this month i'll try it: http://scuoladimotociclismo.com/ what is that steering drill? can be explained? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gianco Posted July 19, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 7 hours ago, Apollo said: Fear of leaning too far can be one factor for keeping pressure on the handlebars. Part of it may simply be reminding yourself not to have pressure. Another bigger thing may be addressing why you feel fear. Maybe it is a visual issue with looking far enough down the track. Also, are you supporting your body weight through holding the handlebars? This may also cause the tense arms if you are trying to hold yourself up by gripping the handlebar. Fixing this requires improving your lower body contact with the motorcycle. This might be addressed by looking at how you use your outside knee to contact the tank. If you were to give a percentage (%), how secure does your outside knee to tank contact feel when cornering? P.S. It's a bit of a trek, but not too far to consider checking out the UK operations of the school to have a coach work in-person on these issues. Often, an external set of eyes can identify issues that you're unaware of. i feel in strong contact with bike, i could leave the handlebar....... except in that moment when i feel push on external handlebar and that happen on my max lean i'm feeling like i 'm trying to lean off excessively with bike leaning way less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apollo Posted July 20, 2019 Report Share Posted July 20, 2019 On 7/18/2019 at 9:28 PM, gianco said: i feel in strong contact with bike, i could leave the handlebar....... except in that moment when i feel push on external handlebar and that happen on my max lean i'm feeling like i 'm trying to lean off excessively with bike leaning way less. One thing to try may be remind yourself mid-corner to relax the outside hand on the external handlebar. Maybe something as simple as opening your hand slightly more than your normal grip. This can be a reminder to not push, or at least it will draw attention to your outside hand and make you recognize when you are pushing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lnewqban Posted July 20, 2019 Report Share Posted July 20, 2019 On 7/18/2019 at 2:00 PM, gianco said: ... i'm pushing on external handlebar. i know is really wrong. as soon as i realized it, i tryed to release pressure, suddently bike, leaned more and turned more inside the cornering, but i felt i was"too slow " for that "moment" Gianco, why do you think that pushing on external handlebar while cornering is wrong? Some bikes are naturally under-steering, yours may have that tendency for the tires that it is wearing. That means that the front tire will try to under-steer by itself when leaned. By keeping pressure on the external handle, you are compensating for that tendency and keeping everything in balance. You know exactly how much pressure to keep by feeling the bike balanced while cornering (not falling into the turn or out of it). Whenever you are "too slow for that moment" or at the ideal cornering speed, the bike is leaning exactly what it needs to lean to keep lateral balance of forces for that particular speed/radius-of-turn combination. As soon as you released the external pressure that was necessary to compensate for the under-steering tendency of the bike, a small counter-steering happened by itself (the internal handle-grip moved forward some), which leaned the bike excessively for that speed and you immediately felt the bike was falling into the turn (the lateral balance of forces had been ruined). Remember, we never directly select the lean angle, we only choose speed and radius of turn; then, the bike leans as far as it needs in order to find the lean angle that balances all lateral forces. By hanging-off we reduce the lean angle of the chassis, but the dynamic lean angle of balance (of the combined center of mass) remains the same for same speed and trajectory of the curve/radius of line. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gianco Posted July 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2019 14 hours ago, Lnewqban said: Gianco, why do you think that pushing on external handlebar while cornering is wrong? Some bikes are naturally under-steering, yours may have that tendency for the tires that it is wearing. That means that the front tire will try to under-steer by itself when leaned. By keeping pressure on the external handle, you are compensating for that tendency and keeping everything in balance. You know exactly how much pressure to keep by feeling the bike balanced while cornering (not falling into the turn or out of it). Whenever you are "too slow for that moment" or at the ideal cornering speed, the bike is leaning exactly what it needs to lean to keep lateral balance of forces for that particular speed/radius-of-turn combination. As soon as you released the external pressure that was necessary to compensate for the under-steering tendency of the bike, a small counter-steering happened by itself (the internal handle-grip moved forward some), which leaned the bike excessively for that speed and you immediately felt the bike was falling into the turn (the lateral balance of forces had been ruined). Remember, we never directly select the lean angle, we only choose speed and radius of turn; then, the bike leans as far as it needs in order to find the lean angle that balances all lateral forces. By hanging-off we reduce the lean angle of the chassis, but the dynamic lean angle of balance (of the combined center of mass) remains the same for same speed and trajectory of the curve/radius of line. mmmhh not sure is like that in my case, because, i feel like i'm fighting, on one side with extreme body lean and other side outside bar push, i feel can take same corner same speed without knee down, with less fatigue, less lean, but not pushing in external bar, i feel like fighting my body against external bar push 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybird180 Posted July 23, 2019 Report Share Posted July 23, 2019 On 7/21/2019 at 4:35 AM, gianco said: mmmhh not sure is like that in my case, because, i feel like i'm fighting, on one side with extreme body lean and other side outside bar push, i feel can take same corner same speed without knee down, with less fatigue, less lean, but not pushing in external bar, i feel like fighting my body against external bar push Have you considered giving that a try? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gianco Posted July 23, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2019 2 minutes ago, Jaybird180 said: Have you considered giving that a try? yes i'll try, but my need is to undestand in what i'm wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotfoot Posted July 24, 2019 Report Share Posted July 24, 2019 Gianco, Do you feel the same tension when leaning over very far on a smaller bike (like a 50cc dirtbike) or on a bicycle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gianco Posted July 24, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2019 bicycle no sorry never drived bike like dirtbike or pitbike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotfoot Posted July 24, 2019 Report Share Posted July 24, 2019 When you push on the outside bar, do you feel like you are trying to push the bike up out of its lean, or push your body down lower, or are you offsetting pressure on the inside bar (possibly caused by holding yourself up)? IS there something you are trying to PREVENT from happening, by pushing on that outside handlebar? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gianco Posted July 25, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2019 i feel like preventing bike lean i'm holding with lower body Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybird180 Posted October 10, 2019 Report Share Posted October 10, 2019 @gianco Did you get this resolved? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gianco Posted October 10, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2019 no for now i bought a pitbike and i'm training in track later i'll go back on track with my bike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotfoot Posted October 11, 2019 Report Share Posted October 11, 2019 If you really are pushing on only the external handlebar, the bike will countersteer up out of the corner. If it does NOT do that, it means you must be pushing ALSO on the inside bar. You said in an earlier post that if you relax and stop pushing on the outside bar, the bike leans in more. That means that EITHER: 1) you are also pushing the inside bar, and having to use your outside arm to balance out the effect, so you need to relax BOTH arms, or 2) your bike has a significant handling problem that is causing to pull to the inside, maybe a badly profiled tire Does this only happen on lefts or rights, or in both directions? I'd definitely recommend riding something else to see if the problem continues - if you have the same issue training on a small pit bike, try gradually working up to steeper lean angles while maintaining relaxed arms. If it doesn't happen on other bikes, have someone take a look at your track bike and see if it has a bad tire, an alignment problem of some sort, twisted or bound forks, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gianco Posted October 11, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2019 analyzing myself i can say, i found that, the issue is the scare of lean.... with body i force to hang off and lean bike, and with arms i fight against it, trying to steer inside turn, so uprighting the bike. now that i'm riding with pitbike on track, this is becoming more conscious.... the bike has nothing wrong, it's my limit.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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