Double apex

[LAS1000RR]

In a corner which has a slight double apex, like corner 3 at Streets of Willow Springs, do you roll off the throttle at all? I can't quite recall what was said at the school. I don't recall rolling off, but I totally might have.

[Hotfoot]

A double apex corner typically does require either going flat on the throttle or some roll off. How MUCH you'd have to roll off would depend on the shape of the corner (how much it tightens up) but ALSO on your entry speed and how much you rolled ON in the first part of the corner. If your roll-on in the first part of the corner was very gentle or your entry speed was low, you might not need to roll off in the middle to make it to the second apex.

If you entered a double apex corner, rolled on the throttle continuously throughout the corner but ended up running wide later in the corner and unable to make the second apex, what would you want to do with the throttle in the middle of the corner (on the next lap) to correct that line?

[yakaru]

9 hours ago, Hotfoot said:

A double apex corner typically does require either going flat on the throttle or some roll off. How MUCH you'd have to roll off would depend on the shape of the corner (how much it tightens up) but ALSO on your entry speed and how much you rolled ON in the first part of the corner. If your roll-on in the first part of the corner was very gentle or your entry speed was low, you might not need to roll off in the middle to make it to the second apex.

If you entered a double apex corner, rolled on the throttle continuously throughout the corner but ended up running wide later in the corner and unable to make the second apex, what would you want to do with the throttle in the middle of the corner (on the next lap) to correct that line?

Pretty much this. The only alternative is that sometimes you can 'make a single apex out of a double' which puts it back on the basic throttle control rules. Turn 8 at the Ridge has this as an increasingly popular line choice, though I'm still not convinced of it myself.

The main thing is 'pause or roll off' -- not chop. You want the roll off to be deliberate and smooth to keep the bike stable.

[Cobie Fair]

And Turn 3 at Streets is a pretty small double apex.  

Curious to how the different throttle applications are done there...how many of you roll on, pause (or roll off) in T-3 at Streets?

[yakaru]

1 hour ago, Cobie Fair said:

And Turn 3 at Streets is a pretty small double apex.  

Curious to how the different throttle applications are done there...how many of you roll on, pause (or roll off) in T-3 at Streets?

For CodeRACE earlier this week I tended to come into turn 3 with a quite deep (though light) brake trail in -- I barely got a squirt in around the first apex before closing it for a beat and then rolling on to drive onto and through the second apex, standing the bike up for a very short straight towards 4.

[Vic]

18 hours ago, Cobie Fair said:

And Turn 3 at Streets is a pretty small double apex.  

Curious to how the different throttle applications are done there...how many of you roll on, pause (or roll off) in T-3 at Streets?

To be honest, I deal with it as a single apex turn - wide on approach with a late turn point, aiming for an apex quite far round on the kerb as it goes uphill.  Also, getting on the gas early as the bikes transitions through the dip which I suppose counteracts the speed loss as the track turns upwards, and feels fun!  Also my favourite turn on the track.

[LAS1000RR]

Thanks for all the answers everyone, that was very helpful. 

[Cobie Fair]

On 3/20/2020 at 9:46 AM, Vic said:

To be honest, I deal with it as a single apex turn - wide on approach with a late turn point, aiming for an apex quite far round on the kerb as it goes uphill.  Also, getting on the gas early as the bikes transitions through the dip which I suppose counteracts the speed loss as the track turns upwards, and feels fun!  Also my favourite turn on the track.

How close do you get to the first apex?

[Cobie Fair]

On 3/19/2020 at 3:56 PM, yakaru said:

For CodeRACE earlier this week I tended to come into turn 3 with a quite deep (though light) brake trail in -- I barely got a squirt in around the first apex before closing it for a beat and then rolling on to drive onto and through the second apex, standing the bike up for a very short straight towards 4.

What if you did it without closing it at all...maybe just a slower initial roll on?

[yakaru]

4 hours ago, Cobie Fair said:

What if you did it without closing it at all...maybe just a slower initial roll on?

Could definitely work, I found my main concern was accuracy at the second apex and so I tended to err on the side of letting the bike come around to it. I actually did that a few times, as sometimes it wasn't a full close but just a slight roll off or pause -- depending on how my line plotting and on point my visuals were guiding me to give me the confidence I'd hit that second apex for that line.

[Cobie Fair]

I realize I wasn't fully clear on my comment.  What I was thinking was, of course the throttle is closed all the way.  But what if instead of on/off/on, just delaying the on, or making it slower initially, so as to eliminate the make it one off to on.

Hope that clears up what I had in mind (maybe you were clear on this, just realized what I wrote wasn't crystal clear).

CF

[Vic]

On 3/24/2020 at 11:08 PM, Cobie Fair said:

How close do you get to the first apex?

Hi Cobie, 

I would say 5'.   

From what I recall,  there are cracks/ tar snakes extending out perpendicular from the first painted kerb which I 'chop' each one shorter in length to run the bike closer as the kerb goes along, ultimately aiming for my apex at just over the halfway point along the second painted kerb - been a couple of years since I went round there though.

[Cobie Fair]

Vic, I think it could be run tighter, and still work.  Wider first apex, where will that end up pointing the bike/positioning the bike for the 2nd apex?  Could a tigher 1st apex help?

[Vic]

19 hours ago, Cobie Fair said:

Vic, I think it could be run tighter, and still work.  Wider first apex, where will that end up pointing the bike/positioning the bike for the 2nd apex?  Could a tigher 1st apex help?

So, to clarify; as I am treating it as a single apex turn, I'm about 5 feet from the edge of where the first kerb starts, bringing my line in closer to it as I ride up to my (the 2nd) apex (and not paying too much attention to the first one).

I'll take that though.👍 Yes, it could, and I could run it tighter.  A tighter first apex would let the bike come out from the kerb, rounding off the corner more so than I probably would be doing, and allow for a tighter trajectory in on the 2nd apex, which would really let you drive the bike up the hill, get it picked up sooner, and set up a good entry into #4. 

As I enter wider, I exit wider, which is why my entry to turn 4 never seems right - crescendo effect - lightbulbs going on😀

There is only one way to remedy this....

 

[Cobie Fair]

Yeah I don't worry too much about a wide entry into T-4.  

[Hotfoot]

7 hours ago, Cobie Fair said:

Yeah I don't worry too much about a wide entry into T-4.  

What do you mean by this? Do you mean you enter at mid-track? Or farther to the inside than that? I find that if enter that turn on the inside I either have to slow way down, or I end up wide on the exit and that messes up the entry to 5.

[Hotfoot]

On ‎3‎/‎19‎/‎2020 at 2:34 PM, Cobie Fair said:

And Turn 3 at Streets is a pretty small double apex.  

Curious to how the different throttle applications are done there...how many of you roll on, pause (or roll off) in T-3 at Streets?

I usually roll on, roll off, roll on again, but if I am going as fast as I can go and traction is good, I come in faster, and I'm slowing down all the way to mid-corner, and I don't open the throttle at all until I am pointed at the second apex. I can carry in a lot more speed that way, but it is hard to stay relaxed on the bars, I only ride it that way when I know I can be relaxed and confident and I really trust the traction.

Overall I feel safer using roll on/roll off/roll on in that corner, especially if my tires are not fully warmed up or traction is not good (when the track is wet, for example).

[CoffeeFirst]

Took a quick look at video footage from L4 training and CODE Race last fall. I roll on, have a slight roll off, then roll on again.  

11 hours ago, Hotfoot said:

I find that if enter that turn on the inside I either have to slow way down, or I end up wide on the exit and that messes up the entry to 5.

Ditto on this comment by Hotfoot. 

[Cobie Fair]

My internet is stalled, I can't get the video up of Will riding at Streets...can anyone get to that, let's see what he is doing with the throttle there.

[CoffeeFirst]

Here is Will's lap from 2014 …   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFjm8cJ-z9g

Here is what I think I see, but check me on this. Will has a nice roll-on out of T2. Then rolls completely off the throttle and trail brakes pretty hard before he gets to the T3 turn point. It looks like he carries his trail brake past the turn point but ends it well before the first apex. It also looks like he is back on the throttle before the first apex as well and holds it essentially steady (just a very slight increase in rpms) through the middle of the turn and second apex. He then rolls on as he exits.

[Keith Code]

Look again. He rolls it off to get it pointed up the hill to #4 right before and just after the second apex. The uphill magnifies the slight roll off to bring the bike around and minimize lean on the exit and his getting max gas towards #4. If you look closely, the speed at the second apex goes down, only 1 mph, but that's enough to get it pointed. At least for him 🙂 In addition, that slight roll off transfers weight to the front allowing the bike to turn a tighter arc at that point. KC

[Vic]

4 hours ago, Keith Code said:

In addition, that slight roll off transfers weight to the front allowing the bike to turn a tighter arc at that point. KC

I like the sound of this👍  My line always leads me too near the inside of #4 - what is they say about every day being a schoolday!

[CoffeeFirst]

9 hours ago, Keith Code said:

Look again. He rolls it off to get it pointed up the hill to #4 right before and just after the second apex

Yes, I see it now. It is a very slight roll off for sure. It is so slight I had to watch the rpm needle to pick it up. Very impressive throttle control! Thanks Keith.