Pulling handle bar after counter-steering?

[Jeremy Park]

Hi there. 

First of all,  I am sorry for my English. It is my second language.

 

My question is:

Let's assume there is left hand corner.

AFTER counter-steering and you reach the desired lean angle,

Is there any case to pull the left handlebar (or push the right hand) intentionally to make tight and sharp turn?

Because I do it sometime since it makes me feel more stable on the bike. But I pull it just very very little bit. Not that hard.

Is it bad behavior or do you do it sometime?

 

Thank you for considering my question.

[yakaru]

Are you referring to pulling left / pushing right to upright the bike? Go past upright for something like a chicane?

There's also a technique where, especially at higher speeds where the force needed to overcome momentum and get the bike turned quickly that you 'push/pull' with both hands to 'balance the load' on your arms and have more available 'soft force' (vs "stabbing" which can be destabilizing)

[Cobie Fair]

Hi Jeremy,

Just to verify, you have not done a school with us, is that correct?

Best,

Cobie

[Jeremy Park]

2 hours ago, Cobie Fair said:

Hi Jeremy,

Just to verify, you have not done a school with us, is that correct?

Best,

Cobie

Correct, I didn't take CSS. I live in Seoul, Korea.

Is only attendee allowed to post here? If so, I am sorry I didn't know that.😔

[JohnCBoukis]

Everyone is allowed to post so do not worry!

Cobie may  be checking on your specific knowledge and what skills you may have been exposed to, for example if you had attended the school.

[Cobie Fair]

Jeremy, glad you are posting!  I was just curious if had been to a school, we could refer to some of the material if you had.

Back to your question: if the counter steering is done, what will make the bike lean over more?  If you want to tighten the corner, what makes the line tighter, with the bike leaning over more?

[yakaru]

On 4/20/2020 at 6:19 PM, Cobie Fair said:

Jeremy, glad you are posting!  I was just curious if had been to a school, we could refer to some of the material if you had.

Back to your question: if the counter steering is done, what will make the bike lean over more?  If you want to tighten the corner, what makes the line tighter, with the bike leaning over more?

I believe from what he said he was saying the opposite -- by pushing right/pulling left after countersteering into a left turn that would upright the bike not tighten.

[Cobie Fair]

Hi Jeremy,

So let's clarify, ,just to be 100% clear for eveyrone: what does a rider do in a turn to get the bike to tighten the line?

Best,

Cobie

[Spinto]

On 4/28/2020 at 7:25 PM, Cobie Fair said:

Hi Jeremy,

So let's clarify, ,just to be 100% clear for eveyrone: what does a rider do in a turn to get the bike to tighten the line?

Best,

Cobie

Counter steer harder into the corner...or less speed.

[53Driver]

On 4/28/2020 at 6:25 PM, Cobie Fair said:

Hi Jeremy,

So let's clarify, ,just to be 100% clear for everyone: what does a rider do in a turn to get the bike to tighten the line?

Best,

Cobie

To tighten up the line while in a turn, the rider needs to increase the rotational moment about the CG of the motorcycle in the direction intended.

How that happens is by altering one (or more) of the variables which dynamically create that moment as quickly, efficiently, and as stable as possible since if you've misjudged the corner and need to tighten the line while in the turn, your "big" thought bubble will be indicating your religious preferences and/or deification options...  

These are in no particular order as the rider will need to change what isn't already incorporated or possibly maxed out.
1. Increase the lean angle through more aggressive counter-steering - if traction is available for that (as mentioned above by Spinto)

2. RPMs (maintain or increase because slowing makes the bike stand up)

3. More lateral weight shift (into the direction of the turn)

4. More forward weight shift (to load up the front wheel)

5. Peg pressure (in conjunction with weight shift to amplify/stabilize a pivot steering point)

6.Shifting to "proper" vision through the turn

Changing the plan mid-turn does one other thing to the rider's CPU - the brain will be rapidly (to the point of overload) sampling all the new data parameters introduced to assess their likelihood of success.  And all this occurs in those elapsed 1.7 seconds when the rider realized he's misjudged the turn to the endstate - hopefully rubber side still down and lesson learned. 

More coffee....Cheers!

[Spinto]

40 minutes ago, 53Driver said:

To tighten up the line while in a turn, the rider needs to increase the rotational moment about the CG of the motorcycle in the direction intended.

How that happens is by altering one (or more) of the variables which dynamically create that moment as quickly, efficiently, and as stable as possible since if you've misjudged the corner and need to tighten the line while in the turn, your "big" thought bubble will be indicating your religious preferences and/or deification options...  

These are in no particular order as the rider will need to change what isn't already incorporated or possibly maxed out.
1. Increase the lean angle through more aggressive counter-steering - if traction is available for that (as mentioned above by Spinto)

2. RPMs (maintain or increase because slowing makes the bike stand up)

3. More lateral weight shift (into the direction of the turn)

4. More forward weight shift (to load up the front wheel)

5. Peg pressure (in conjunction with weight shift to amplify/stabilize a pivot steering point)

6.Shifting to "proper" vision through the turn

Changing the plan mid-turn does one other thing to the rider's CPU - the brain will be rapidly (to the point of overload) sampling all the new data parameters introduced to assess their likelihood of success.  And all this occurs in those elapsed 1.7 seconds when the rider realized he's misjudged the turn to the endstate - hopefully rubber side still down and lesson learned. 

More coffee....Cheers!

There's  a whole bunch of wrong in this posting.......Cobie...could you chime in..please!!

[53Driver]

Please - enlighten me!

 

As I've said in other postings, I'm not a proud author, but please don't tell me there's a lot wrong and leave me hanging!

[Spinto]

37 minutes ago, 53Driver said:

Please - enlighten me!

 

As I've said in other postings, I'm not a proud author, but please don't tell me there's a lot wrong and leave me hanging!

Since you're doing the course at Barber shortly....i'll leave it them to teach you in their words and style that knowingly works.

Just one point....Slowing the bike while in ca corner will cause it to fall NOT stand up.....more throttle in a corner will cause the bike to want to stand up!...therefore more steering input required. 

These guys and gals at CSS know what they're doing....don't assuming anything.....go in with an open and blank mind.

My PB laptime at Barber on my r6....1:32

[yakaru]

I will at least voice a few, though Cobie is of course welcome to tell me if I'm full of it. I'll also ask forgiveness for not following the 'helping think through it' instruction style of the school, given that I believe you've never attended and thus might not have the previous instruction that helps with that method.

"1. Increase the lean angle through more aggressive counter-steering - if traction is available for that (as mentioned above by Spinto)"

I have concerns about how you explained this -- once you're at lean you stop counter steering, the bike maintains the line. If you need to tighten it then you can counter steer more, though there's concerns here (e.g. rolling on and adding lean is a quick way to crash). The term "aggressive" is a flag for me -- while there are advantages to a decisive countersteer input you don't want to be 'stabby' about it and if you're already at lean I might back down my rate in order to 'listen' to the bike better.

"2. RPMs (maintain or increase because slowing makes the bike stand up)"

I'm really curious why you feel this is the case. While a sudden chop of the throttle will send you even wider, a slow roll off won't (see the double apex mention in the Twist film, if you have access). In fact, it is usually the opposite -- why do you slow way more for a hairpin? To quote another school "Speed equals radius" (at a given lean angle, bp, etc.)

"5. Peg pressure (in conjunction with weight shift to amplify/stabilize a pivot steering point)"

your mention of pivot here is throwing me, as usually I think of pivot steering as having my weight 'cross body' (balance my left hand to my right peg) for "strength with stability" in fast steering situations (especially to overcome momentum effects at higher bike speeds) whereas most people who talk about peg weighting discuss it in regards to weighting the inside peg. The fact of the matter is that "weighting" the inside peg really doesn't do anything. The majority of what you notice if you've ever tried it is usually more the shift of body weight which is far more effectively done by moving the upper body to the inside of the bike. Since you're on the bike you're fighting physics -- for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction. The forces you're putting into the peg just act back upon you and you're effectively in a closed system due to the tires not really taking the load (since overall it's the same) and inputting them into the road (since Earth IS a separate system). Check this out: 

 

[yakaru]

1 minute ago, Spinto said:

Since you're doing the course at Barber shortly....i'll leave it them to teach you in their words and style that knowingly works.

Just one point....Slowing the bike while in ca corner will cause it to fall NOT stand up.....more throttle in a corner will cause the bike to want to stand up!...therefore more steering input required. 

These guys and gals at CSS know what they're doing....don't assuming anything.....go in with an open and blank mind.

My PB laptime at Barber on my r6....1:32

Heh, opposite myth -- speeding up won't make the bike want to stand up. It will widen the turn but go out in a parking lot and just spin circles and roll on, careful not to steer. Your circles will widen but the bike won't stand -- slow back down and your radius will reestablish itself.

[Spinto]

why does it run wide?   the turning circle has gotten bigger?...how??

[Cobie Fair]

Back to the point of the bike running wide when it slows:  if the rider is rolling on the throttle, then rolls off, it will run wide initially. 

Good discussion here.

[Spinto]

4 minutes ago, Cobie Fair said:

Back to the point of the bike running wide when it slows:  if the rider is rolling on the throttle, then rolls off, it will run wide initially. 

Good discussion here.

thanks Cobie.....my opinions are for track riding.....i wouldn't go that deep into a corner/situation on the street

[yakaru]

32 minutes ago, Cobie Fair said:

Back to the point of the bike running wide when it slows:  if the rider is rolling on the throttle, then rolls off, it will run wide initially. 

Good discussion here.

Yes, sorry, I meant to say that and it got missed as I typed it.

[53Driver]

Oh this is all great stuff!

Tonight I'm gonna pour a Blanton's and respond.  

So looking forward to school!

[yakaru]

2 hours ago, Spinto said:

why does it run wide?   the turning circle has gotten bigger?...how??

First off, think about hairpins -- why do you slow for them if this isn't true?

Second off, while this isn't a 'straight' comparison, I believe (part of the equation involves the forward tracking of the bike which means it would be the same at any speed) you are going to have a few reasons:

1. You are going to hit your lean angle sooner in the corner, as the counter steering force will get you there while covering less distance

2. The way counter steering works is you are balancing the centripetal to the centrifugal force

excellent video here: 

The centripetal ('center-seeking') acceleration is the motion inwards towards the center of a circle. The acceleration is equal to the square of the velocity times mass divided by the radius of the circular path. (the mass is why light bikes steer more easily!)

F = mv²/r is the equation. Since you must balance the centripetal with the centrifugal that means you must hold the force constant. If v goes up you must also increase r.

[yakaru]

As an addendum -- With cars you can balance by distributing the weight differential between the tires, but that's why when you do a high speed turn you get burning rubber and sliding.  Same equation but the balance of where the load goes differs.

[Spinto]

i 'm reading these posts and i don't know who's speaking. Are you a racer?motorcycle, car?? how much "time in the seat".....not just track days but racing?  What real experience do you have and for how long?  Without knowing...it's all conjecture. 

 

 

[yakaru]

Racer, I've been riding for 10 years and have been a track rider the whole time. 

Also a bit, uh, unkosher? to do this perhaps but this is well documented. Here's YCRS covering it. Nick's bio:

https://ridelikeachampion.com/teams/nick-ienatsch/ (He has a pair of AMA #1 plates on the wall and deep ties from 35 years in the motorcycle industry.) I've read his book and will say he has incorrect information in it (peg weighting) but on this he's dead on.

 

[Spinto]

so you've been racing....not just track days?