Pulling handle bar after counter-steering?

[yakaru]

12 minutes ago, Spinto said:

so you've been racing....not just track days?

Correct. My last race, before the lock down, was actually with CSS.

 

Edit to expand: I'll admit I'm a newer racer, but I'm a physics simulation programmer and I gave the equation and explanation for why. Honestly that should have way more credit than any race experience. I also, as I said, invite you to try it. The lean bike at CSS is an excellent example, as is the parking lot. Racing experience is fine and good but CSS mentions many times how many pro-racers they have who don't know they counter steer or other basics.

Edited May 4, 2020 by yakaru
expansion

[Spinto]

11 minutes ago, yakaru said:

Racer, I've been riding for 10 years and have been a track rider the whole time. 

Also a bit, uh, unkosher? to do this perhaps but this is well documented. Here's YCRS covering it: 

 

ok...just watched this....i wasn't wrong.  Terminology is different...how others describe it will be different....not here to argue semantics. 

[Spinto]

44 minutes ago, yakaru said:

Correct. My last race, before the lock down, was actually with CSS.

 

Edit to expand: I'll admit I'm a newer racer, but I'm a physics simulation programmer and I gave the equation and explanation for why. Honestly that should have way more credit than any race experience. I also, as I said, invite you to try it. The lean bike at CSS is an excellent example, as is the parking lot. Racing experience is fine and good but CSS mentions many times how many pro-racers they have who don't know they counter steer or other basics.

nice work....where was the race? I don't see the details posted anywhere

 

[Spinto]

in an earlier post....when i did CodeRace...they didn't have the bike working to ride....Would have loved it!!

[53Driver]

On 4/28/2020 at 6:25 PM, Cobie Fair said:

Hi Jeremy,

So let's clarify, ,just to be 100% clear for eveyrone: what does a rider do in a turn to get the bike to tighten the line?

Best,

Cobie

As a preface, I read Coach's question as "the bike is already IN the turn and NOW the line needs to be tighter."    

And since 'experience' seems to matter, I'm over 20 years and 100s of thousands of miles on two wheels.  NONE on track.  I got my first sportbike 4 months ago - pics of the pretty girl are elsewhere in these hallowed pages - but I have been studying Keith Code and Nick Ienatsch for over 6 years.  Why?  I teach the MSF Courses for a large manufacturer and for the Navy/Marine Corps.  I'm also a 24 year USMC helicopter test pilot with a heavy background in helicopter aerodynamics and systems engineering.   And, if we're throwing diplomas around, I can compete in that category as well.  But....I don't think any of that really matters because we're all on the forum to enhance our understanding and I think we are actually all singing from the same hymnal, and maybe even on the same song.

So, my initial response is in bold with all y'all's comments under each point so we can compare apples & apples:

To tighten up the line while in a turn, the rider needs to increase the rotational moment about the CG of the motorcycle in the direction intended.  

No counter point to this that I saw.

How that happens is by altering one (or more) of the variables which dynamically create that moment as quickly, efficiently, and as stable as possible since if you've misjudged the corner and need to tighten the line while in the turn, your "big" thought bubble will be indicating your religious preferences and/or defecation options...  

Again, no one had issue with this statement either. 

These are in no particular order as the rider will need to change what isn't already incorporated or possibly maxed out.

Assuming the rider is ALREADY in the turn, he may have some of these parameters "maxed out" so other techniques need be employed quickly.

1. Increase the lean angle through more aggressive counter-steering - if traction is available for that (as mentioned above by Spinto)

Yakaru - "I have concerns about how you explained this -- once you're at lean you stop counter steering, the bike maintains the line. If you need to tighten it then you can counter steer more, though there's concerns here (e.g. rolling on and adding lean is a quick way to crash). The term "aggressive" is a flag for me -- while there are advantages to a decisive countersteer input you don't want to be 'stabby' about it and if you're already at lean I might back down my rate in order to 'listen' to the bike better."

Me - You are 100% correct, I used the word 'aggressive' inappropriately.  Perhaps 'with purpose' would have been better.  If the bike is already in the turn, it's going to take quick, smooth inputs to correct whatever the rider missed on the approach. "Increasing lean angle smoothly and correctly" is better verbiage.  Thank you!  

2. RPMs (maintain or increase because slowing makes the bike stand up)

Spinto - "Just one point....Slowing the bike while in a corner will cause it to fall NOT stand up.....more throttle in a corner will cause the bike to want to stand up!...therefore more steering input required."

Yakaru - "I'm really curious why you feel this is the case. While a sudden chop of the throttle will send you even wider, a slow roll off won't (see the double apex mention in the Twist film, if you have access). In fact, it is usually the opposite -- why do you slow way more for a hairpin? To quote another school "Speed equals radius" (at a given lean angle, bp, etc.)"

also "speeding up won't make the bike want to stand up. It will widen the turn but go out in a parking lot and just spin circles and roll on, careful not to steer. Your circles will widen but the bike won't stand -- slow back down and your radius will reestablish itself."

Me - In the Advanced Rider Course, we do a drill where the students ride an 80' circle at theoretically constant speed and constant lean (they, like all of us, do the best they can do).  At one point in the circle, we have them roll off the throttle a bit and/or 'scrub a little speed' with the brakes.  The bike wants to stand up, requiring more pressure on the inside handgrip to maintain the same radius of turn. This is in complete concurrence with Yakaru's second point.  I do slow more for a hairpin, but again, my premise was that we are already in the turn making corrections.  And as Spinto points out, yes, if I do have more lean angle available, I'm going to have to add a wee bit of throttle to keep from falling over.  Those two techniques need to work in combination.    

As far as the double apex throttle control - I'm on personally unfamiliar, but not shaky ground.  As I understand it, at the exit of the first turn, any throttle application that was applied 'evenly, smoothly & constantly' through that first turn - and then after the bike is as straight up as it's going to get, turn permitting - is then maintained or retarded as required for the next turn.  

3. More lateral weight shift (into the direction of the turn)  - no objection here

4. More forward weight shift (to load up the front wheel) - no objection here

5. Peg pressure (in conjunction with weight shift to amplify/stabilize a pivot steering point)

Yakaru - "your mention of pivot here is throwing me, as usually I think of pivot steering as having my weight 'cross body' (balance my left hand to my right peg) for "strength with stability" in fast steering situations (especially to overcome momentum effects at higher bike speeds) whereas most people who talk about peg weighting discuss it in regards to weighting the inside peg. The fact of the matter is that "weighting" the inside peg really doesn't do anything. The majority of what you notice if you've ever tried it is usually more the shift of body weight which is far more effectively done by moving the upper body to the inside of the bike. Since you're on the bike you're fighting physics -- for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction. The forces you're putting into the peg just act back upon you and you're effectively in a closed system due to the tires not really taking the load (since overall it's the same) and inputting them into the road (since Earth IS a separate system)."

Me - in another thread that you & I both responded to, pivot steering was discussed.  Your paragraph is spot on - I agree 110%.  I actually referenced the NO BS bike in that thread.  If the rider, in mid turn extremis however, is pre-positioned for an outside pivot steering point, making the necessary, timely corrections by weight 'cross body' to the handgrips will be easier during that time of 'uncertainty.'

And as a side note, I try very hard to never 'fight' the physics my bike, we (as well as I can) try to elegantly glide across the dance floor.  For every action I make, 'her' reaction should be in harmony.  But again, I've never raced or even done a track day. 

6.Shifting to "proper" vision through the turn - no objection here

Changing the plan mid-turn does one other thing to the rider's CPU - the brain will be rapidly (to the point of overload) sampling all the new data parameters introduced to assess their likelihood of success.  - no objection here

Thanks Yakaru - I really liked that video on centripetal & centrifugal forces.

Lastly:
Spinto - "i'll leave it them to teach you in their words and style that knowingly works."

Yakura - "for not following the 'helping think through it' instruction style of the school"

Coach C - "Back to the point of the bike running wide when it slows:  if the rider is rolling on the throttle, then rolls off, it will run wide initially. Good discussion here."

We're all thinking it through, Coach is letting us run with it for awhile.  And Spinto, yes, my mind is VERY open and a ginormous blank canvas upon which the CSS staff shall paint.  In 15 years of coaching Basic Riders, my favorite students are the ones who have no experience - as in they have no habits to break.  I'm hoping that this will apply to my sportbike career.  I've had no formal instruction in riding on track and I'm going to get arguably the best training there is.   

My purpose in engaging the forums is to clarify concepts I've been reading about in KC's TWOTW 1 & 2, "The Soft Science of Road Racing Motorcyles", and Nick Ienatsch's "Sport Riding Techniques."  The more I can get clarified BEFORE class, the more attention I can devote to new things.  Don't want to use my entire $10 in the classroom on nomenclature & concepts with which I could have already been somewhat familiar.

Spinto - "...I wasn't wrong.  Terminology is different...how others describe it will be different....not here to argue semantics. "

We're all on the same page!

Cheers, Steve

 

PS - I did my best to cut 'n paste your writings in full context.  My apologies if I missed anything sentient.

[yakaru]

I'd really love Cobie's input on the standing up with throttle at this point.

[53Driver]

r=mph....

"stand up" may be my semantics for "with a given speed & lean angle and adding rpms, the bike will run wider circles"

If the rear tire is suddenly slowed, the bike wants to run wide too.

 

But yes, I'm ready for 'coaching' too.  And a refill of Blanton's.    

 

[Hotfoot]

Whew, this thread has gone all over creation and back since the original posted question, and the OP seems to have checked out. So, I'm going to jump in here. I am a CSS coach.

First let me note that Yakaru is a very competent rider, fast, has come to many schools, and is very knowledgeable on the material.

Now, on to some of the info that is in question.

1) When a rider is in a corner, if the throttle is APRUPTLY shut off, the bike will INITIALLY stand up a bit and run wide. Sudden loading of the front tire creates drag on the inside of the contact patch which tries to turn the wheel into the turn which makes the bike stand up. This is the same phenomena that occurs when you pull the front brake in the middle of a corner, that makes the bike stand up and run wide. THEN, once the bike recovers from the initial weight shift and begins to slow down, the arc will tighten due to the bike slowing down. There is a GREAT CG animation of this in A Twist of the Wrist II DVD.

2) Rolling on the gas does not, BY ITSELF, cause the bike change lean angle. You must countersteer to stand the bike up. However, as the bike speeds up, the radius of the arc changes (widens), which can give people the impression the bike is standing up - especially if they unconsciously STEER it up! It's a rare rider that knows and understands that it is ONLY the handlebars that steer the bike up (not the throttle), most riders have been doing unconsciously since the first day they rode.

I hope this helps clarify these points.

[Spinto]

Thanks

[53Driver]

32 minutes ago, Hotfoot said:

Whew, this thread has gone all over creation and back since the original posted question, and the OP seems to have checked out. So, I'm going to jump in here. I am a CSS coach.

First let me note that Yakaru is a very competent rider, fast, has come to many schools, and is very knowledgeable on the material.

Now, on to some of the info that is in question.

1) When a rider is in a corner, if the throttle is APRUPTLY shut off, the bike will INITIALLY stand up a bit and run wide. Sudden loading of the front tire creates drag on the inside of the contact patch which tries to turn the wheel into the turn which makes the bike stand up. This is the same phenomena that occurs when you pull the front brake in the middle of a corner, that makes the bike stand up and run wide. THEN, once the bike recovers from the initial weight shift and begins to slow down, the arc will tighten due to the bike slowing down. There is a GREAT CG animation of this in A Twist of the Wrist II DVD.

2) Rolling on the gas does not, BY ITSELF, cause the bike change lean angle. You must countersteer to stand the bike up. However, as the bike speeds up, the radius of the arc changes (widens), which can give people the impression the bike is standing up - especially if they unconsciously STEER it up! It's a rare rider that knows and understands that it is ONLY the handlebars that steer the bike up (not the throttle), most riders have been doing unconsciously since the first day they rode.

I hope this helps clarify these points.

If I may, Yakaru is also well versed and I've found her postings I've read in other threads to be spot on.

1.  I remember reading about how a "high-side" begins...with the aft end of the bike suddenly pushing on the steering stem while the front tire isn't in line.  The bike stands up.  This can be caused by releasing the rear brake with tires not in line.  Or with a sudden acceleration with tires not in line.  But pushing on that steering  stem is bad when tires are out of line.
In a turn, when the throttle is chopped, (or rear brake briefly applied), the front tire is loaded, the front tire has that sudden extra drag, the back of the bike is still moving faster, it briefly pushes on the steering stem, and the bike wants to stand up.  Got it.  I hope.

2.  Rolling on throttle will not cause a lean angle change - got it.  But given the same lean angle, with an increase in throttle, the radius of the turn will run wider, correct?  And to keep the same radius of turn the lean angle must be increased?

Again, I think we're all in the same hymnal, driving toward the same page.   

Thanks for the guidance, Coach!

  

[Spinto]

i'll be bowing out of these conversations going forward. Too cliquey. Also too "green"

Good luck to all of you!  Listen to the coaches!!!

[53Driver]

A pity!  

Your experience would indicate you had a lot to offer.  

Per your advice, I'll stick with the coaches!  

Ride well, sir!

[Spinto]

11 hours ago, 53Driver said:

A pity!  

Your experience would indicate you had a lot to offer.  

Per your advice, I'll stick with the coaches!  

Ride well, sir!

Thanks....but it's a waste of my time and would prob only confuse some....the CSS coaches have a clear process and way of delivering it.

 

[53Driver]

11 minutes ago, Spinto said:

Thanks....but it's a waste of my time and would prob only confuse some....the CSS coaches have a clear process and way of delivering it.

 

Concur.

[Hotfoot]

13 hours ago, 53Driver said:

 

2.  Rolling on throttle will not cause a lean angle change - got it.  But given the same lean angle, with an increase in throttle, the radius of the turn will run wider, correct?  And to keep the same radius of turn the lean angle must be increased?

Again, I think we're all in the same hymnal, driving toward the same page.   

Thanks for the guidance, Coach!

  

Correct, given a constant lean angle, speed and radius are related so as the speed comes up the radius of the turn gets wider. And yes, to maintain the SAME arc at a higher speed you would have to have a greater lean angle.

This can be a source of crashes for novice riders, if a rider turns in early, ends up running wide, and has to lean it over farther to stay on line, they can end up adding throttle and lean angle simultaneously which can overload the rear tire and potentially cause a crash.

If a rider ends up running wide at the end of a corner and has to steer the bike again to stay on the track, what SHOULD the rider do with the throttle during that steering correction? 

[53Driver]

8 minutes ago, Hotfoot said:

If a rider ends up running wide at the end of a corner and has to steer the bike again to stay on the track, what SHOULD the rider do with the throttle during that steering correction? 

I would answer "maintain throttle" during the steering correction and add throttle as soon as possible afterwards when the bike is re-pointed.

[Hotfoot]

13 hours ago, Spinto said:

i'll be bowing out of these conversations going forward. Too cliquey. Also too "green"

Good luck to all of you!  Listen to the coaches!!!

At one time (not too long ago) we had a section that was a "questions for coaches" area, where a user could ask a question to be answered only by coaches, not necessarily open to general discussions from others. If we had a section like that again, would that resolve your concerns about the board being "cliquey" or "too green"?

Our intention is to be a friendly forum that is open to riders of all levels, where riders of all types can feel comfortable asking questions in a positive, helpful, and ad-free environment.

[Hotfoot]

2 minutes ago, 53Driver said:

I would answer "maintain throttle" during the steering correction and add throttle as soon as possible afterwards when the bike is re-pointed.

Good answer. What if just "maintaining throttle" (by which I assume you mean you stop rolling on, but don't roll off) wouldn't be enough to handle it? If your line was REALLY a disaster and your speed was too high to make just a small steering correction (i.e., at the given speed you might not have enough traction or ground clearance to lean it over far enough to make the corner), how else could you handle it, if you still had some room before the edge of the pavement?

[53Driver]

3 minutes ago, Hotfoot said:

Good answer. What if just "maintaining throttle" (by which I assume you mean you stop rolling on, but don't roll off) wouldn't be enough to handle it? If your line was REALLY a disaster and your speed was too high to make just a small steering correction (i.e., at the given speed you might not have enough traction or ground clearance to lean it over far enough to make the corner), how else could you handle it, if you still had some room before the edge of the pavement?

Okay, first nomenclature: "maintaining throttle" (by which I assume you mean you stop rolling on, but don't roll off)"  I did mean exactly that, is there another term? 

Second: if there was still room on the pavement to use, it's gonna need to get used.  If my turn is that bad, I'm hoping my peripheral vision would have already cued me to that available pavement in conjunction with whatever lean angle I thought I could muster - and perhaps it is 0 degrees more - and my radius of turn would increase ever so slightly with very, very minimal throttle added to make that happen.  The weight would still be proportionally shifting to the rear with additional throttle - so I reckon the key there is adding ever so smoothly, maintain the lean angle and keep looking through the exit.  

[53Driver]

Other nomenclature questions that I believe apply to the topic (from Ienatsch's SRT)
"Throttle steering" - as described above, using the throttle to load the rear tire, increase the tire patch, and increase the radius of turn without changing lean angle
"Maintenance Throttle" - not on nor off, however, the bike's speed may increase or decrease based on other factors

[Spinto]

5 hours ago, Hotfoot said:

At one time (not too long ago) we had a section that was a "questions for coaches" area, where a user could ask a question to be answered only by coaches, not necessarily open to general discussions from others. If we had a section like that again, would that resolve your concerns about the board being "cliquey" or "too green"?

Our intention is to be a friendly forum that is open to riders of all levels, where riders of all types can feel comfortable asking questions in a positive, helpful, and ad-free environment.

For me...i think it would help. Thanks

[Hotfoot]

5 hours ago, 53Driver said:

Okay, first nomenclature: "maintaining throttle" (by which I assume you mean you stop rolling on, but don't roll off)"  I did mean exactly that, is there another term? 

Second: if there was still room on the pavement to use, it's gonna need to get used.  If my turn is that bad, I'm hoping my peripheral vision would have already cued me to that available pavement in conjunction with whatever lean angle I thought I could muster - and perhaps it is 0 degrees more - and my radius of turn would increase ever so slightly with very, very minimal throttle added to make that happen.  The weight would still be proportionally shifting to the rear with additional throttle - so I reckon the key there is adding ever so smoothly, maintain the lean angle and keep looking through the exit.  

If the speed was high and the line was bad, and you had pavement left to use, could you stand the bike up, brake hard, then steer the bike again? Could you, at that new, significantly reduced speed (because you had applied brakes hard) now turn the bike in a sharper arc than you could have achieved at the higher speed, where you might have run out of traction or ground clearance?

Clearly I am talking about a relatively extreme example, but could you, if needed, handle the problem that way?

As far as "maintenance throttle" as a term, I just wanted to clarify your interpretation. It is not a term we use at the school; that phrase can generate confusion because some people use it to mean "enough throttle to maintain speed (through the corner)" and others use it to mean "hold the throttle where it is" i.e. not rolling on and also not decreasing it, and those are two different things. (There may be more definitions than just those two, but I hear those two fairly often.) 

[Hotfoot]

1 hour ago, Spinto said:

For me...i think it would help. Thanks

I'll pass on that feedback, it might make sense to resurrect that forum section. From participating in some other forums I DO understand the questions/concerns that arise when you don't know the sources of the information you get.

This particular thread covered a whole lot of ground in a short amount of time, and got confusing, but from what I saw most of what was said was correct in one way or another, just incomplete or stated in a way that was not absolutely clear. Perfect example is the question of what happens when you roll off the throttle in a turn - one person said the bike stands up and runs wide and another said that the arc tightens. And BOTH of those things can, and do, happen! With an abrupt roll off the effect of the bike standing up and running wide is much more dramatic and noticeable, and a rider who chops the throttle or grabs the front brake will experience that, and might be mystified as to why it happened, when he (theoretically) expected the arc to just tighten. However a more seasoned rider who backs off the gas very gradually would feel something quite different - the effect still occurs but the weight shift is so much less and the drag on the rear tire nowhere near as intense so THAT rider may not notice the 'standing up/running wide' effect at all unless they are very attuned to it, it will come and go very quickly and then the bike will begin to tighten its arc as it slows down. 

Anyway, the point is: as long as we keep our manners in we can learn a lot from all the questions and viewpoints that arise here, and sometimes something that seems simple or obvious turns out to have some ins and outs that are fascinating when explored from different angles.

[53Driver]

17 hours ago, Hotfoot said:

If the speed was high and the line was bad, and you had pavement left to use, could you stand the bike up, brake hard, then steer the bike again? Could you, at that new, significantly reduced speed (because you had applied brakes hard) now turn the bike in a sharper arc than you could have achieved at the higher speed, where you might have run out of traction or ground clearance?

Clearly I am talking about a relatively extreme example, but could you, if needed, handle the problem that way?

As far as "maintenance throttle" as a term, I just wanted to clarify your interpretation. It is not a term we use at the school; that phrase can generate confusion because some people use it to mean "enough throttle to maintain speed (through the corner)" and others use it to mean "hold the throttle where it is" i.e. not rolling on and also not decreasing it, and those are two different things. (There may be more definitions than just those two, but I hear those two fairly often.) 

Oh wow.  Yes, that could work in theory, but being that efficient on the controls to get the bike stood up enough, enough braking accomplished in that short a period of time, and then get the bike leaned back to make the turn would be all dependent - for me - on how well I could sample my speed, execute the braking, get another speed sample and then decide what to do...because what if I didn't get enough slowing in?  And, I would personally, at this point, need a 'bunch' of spare pavement because my muscle memory for that kind of control operating efficiency isn't there.
I'm sure there are riders who can and do handle the problem that way.  I've been blessed enough that I've never HAD to perform that.   In aviation we talk about using superior judgement to avoid using superior skills, but I like having superior skills as an option for when my brain goes 'pffft.'
Also, ALL my data points are street riding.  Having the luxury of the same turn over and over again usually isn't there and so I haven't thought along those lines.  (no pun intended)

"Maintenance throttle" - yes, I can see how those two definitions cloud each other.  I'll refrain from using it in the future. 

Great stuff!  Thanks for making me think!

 

[faffi]

Being a mediocre rider with a history of more brawn than brains, I have had to stand the bike up to slow down before continuing at a reduced pace countless times. Sometimes from running out of cornering clearance, sometimes just running out of courage. I have never planned for it or practiced it, it's just a result of my SR.