Jasonzilla

Quick Turn In Totw 2.

46 posts in this topic

I've just re-watched TOTW2 dvd again. Quick Turning is easily understood but the simplicity doesn't quite remove the fact that you need the committment(b@ll$) to do it. I mean, on track day, we're hurtling down the main straight, you get to the braking zone and there are like five bikes, only two of which can get a neat line through the corner. In a pressure situation like that, I am not confident enough to quick turn it. If the guys brake at 150m before entry point, I'm backing off at 250-200m so that I'm not stressed to turn in quickly.....I also don't know why CSS doesn't do a track day(s) in France? You do it in Spain, so why not France?.....In France, I could get to you with my own bike, race body work and fully equiped....learning on my own machine or getting scrutinized on my own bike would be so cool!

 

 

dsc03516u.jpg

 

You are only in Brittany, put your bike on the trailer, then get the tunnel over to England and drive for a couple of hours up to Silverstone, it's not that far!

 

And our food isn't as bad as you think wink.gif

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Hey, Kai, that brought back memories :lol:

 

I' ve never spent much money on my bikes. New fork springs and either new or used Koni shock absorbers are about as far as my mods have gone when it comes to improve handling and performance. But I've met blokes (on the road) that comes really close to your description. Like the bloke on the ZX-7R with upgraded suspension and a track worthy set of Metzelers "because he didn't feel secure on anything less" that I could easily keep up with on my Suzuki GS650 soft chopper without ever shifting out of 5th gear. Or the bloke who had outfitted his Ducati 916 with Ohlins suspension, Ohlins steering damper, Brembo race spec brakes and street legal track tyres only to complain about the bike not being dialled in when he was left far behind by my brother riding his Kawa KZ1300 with only one front brake working (the other disc lacked its caliper and so did the rear brake) and even by a rather careful mate of my brother and his 1973 Kawa Z-1. I love these characters :D

 

Just like Spies or Stoner or Rossi would easily leave me behind with something like a Ninja 500 regardless of what bike I had at my disposal :unsure:

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I've just re-watched TOTW2 dvd again. Quick Turning is easily understood but the simplicity doesn't quite remove the fact that you need the committment(b@ll$) to do it. I mean, on track day, we're hurtling down the main straight, you get to the braking zone and there are like five bikes, only two of which can get a neat line through the corner. In a pressure situation like that, I am not confident enough to quick turn it. If the guys brake at 150m before entry point, I'm backing off at 250-200m so that I'm not stressed to turn in quickly.....I also don't know why CSS doesn't do a track day(s) in France? You do it in Spain, so why not France?.....In France, I could get to you with my own bike, race body work and fully equiped....learning on my own machine or getting scrutinized on my own bike would be so cool!

 

 

dsc03516u.jpg

 

 

OK, so you have the concept and idea of the quick turn and seem to see the value in it - so what, specifically, is hurting your confidence in doing it? In other words, what are you afraid will happen if you DO quick turn it, in the pressure situation described above?

 

And / or, what is taking up so much of your $10 of attention in that situation, that you end up not having any left over to attempt a quick turn? :)

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Ridiculefr35,

 

Well, if it were easy, anyone would do it!

 

For sure on quick turning, it's a piece at a time. Sometimes we get the rider and find his position in relation to the bars is the problem, sometimes we find he's moving at the same time (creating instability), and there can be other issues.

 

If you can get to the school, ask them to put you through a thorough, tough steering drill. It can do a lot to sort out steering...

 

Best,

Cobie

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First off, I've not spent a dime on the bike (2010 zx10r, bought at 0km for road/track use, all maintenance done to date) aside from tires and race fairings and protections. There is nothing wrong with the bike. Whats wrong is yours truly between the seat and the bars!:rolleyes:

 

Approaching that end of the straight:

 

- braking done

- gears changed down

- butt already offside, in anitcipation of the turn

- I get to my TP

- if I'm at "my speed".....like driving miss daisy compared to the rest, I can turn it

- if I maintain pace with the other much faster riders, well......I feel at TP, if I quick turn it, I'm either going to turn it or bin it......:ph34r:

 

 

My arms are bent so that the steering effort is minimal, but the action is maximum. I'm not forcing the bar into the ground vertically.

 

I'm looking at my TP then transferring my vision to the Apex and exit point......trying to keep it visually all tidy.

 

My lines are neat, I'm not all over the place........I'm not doing any steering corrections in a turn.....

 

I'm think I'm mindblocked......or something......:blink:

 

edit: probably need to mention, I've an FFM licence non-timed training, non competition, to be used on track days. FFM licence, saves the hassle of providing insurance attestations,etc. The downside, as I found out, is that as a licenced rider, they do not mix you up with non licenced riders on the track. As a result, I'm a debutant this year, but each time I go on track, I'm grouped with other licenced riders, many of whom are "experts" ( here, you have debutants, track day rider, confirmed pilot, then experts). I think it's also partly this differential which makes me feel like I'm firing on three cylinders instead of all four if I can say it that way......still all things considered, I still think I suck at quick turning the bike at really high track speeds. Out on the roads, riding within the speed limits, I've never found myself 'wanting'....run out of road or stuff like that.

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It sounds like you need to ride with people at your own level of experience, to make it a bit more comfortable, and you need to do the Level 1 school. Having one of the coaches there in front of you kicking your ass (in the nicest way) makes a huge difference. As Rutter says, it's not so far to Silverstone, although France dates should be out soon for 2012 I think? Yeah the food can be that bad, fish and chips made in some sort of deep-fry-press, but anything far eastern is miles better than in France so you'll be fine!

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although France dates should be out soon for 2012 I think?

 

If thats true, I'd rather do it in France, use the transportation or hiring money to pay for a Level 2. Just getting my car onto the Ferry from Saint Malo to Portsmouth is minimum 400 euro....thats probably more with trailer attached......and all of that, cost more than the level 1 :-) I'd rather spend on a L2 than waste on transport cost, it's why I say it would be nice to have the school come out here......there are numerous forums where people use Keith's books, dvd's and even a French version as Keith's school was at one time attended by a leading French rider at the time.....so there is a market for it.

 

Anyways, I was on a weekend ride with friends, good roads, along a canal that eventually led to the sea. It did take us into very quiet, virtually nobody else on the road areas and we travelled at not more than 110 to 140km/h......but when the twisties came up, nobody really bothered braking much either. I tried to use the quick turn on some really tight curves and I found that I got the back end to slide once or twice like I felt it do on the circuit at times......I used my knee against the tank, using outer footpeg for leverage....On Monday morning, I woke up with pains in places I usually feel after a track day......I'm going to work on this more consciencely until I get it right......

 

The school is a must....will eventually get to it, be it in France or UK.......

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FR35 said:

 

1/ I suck

2/ I cannot quick turn the bike

3/ I'm afraid to quick turn the bike

4/ I'm braking way early to be sure I can turn the bike "at my comfort level", which means if I do a corner in 2nd gear, the other guy is in 3rd...hell maybe even 4th.....

5/ I suck

 

... Steady, lad ... Go easy on yourself ... Self-abuse is expensive ...

 

... Your 10 Euros Will Be Gone In A heartbeat ...

 

Tu n'as pas assez d'argent o temps por cette indulgence. Il faut qu'on commencer a travailler.

 

Tu as lu les livres. Maintenant, go through and scan por ces mots in TW2:

 

confidence . devil . doubt . fear . panic . respect . scared . undermine

 

Get over this "suck" business. C'est seulement une distraction du travail qu'il faut faire.

 

Justin

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Il y a une "tag" que s'appelle "css_i_suck"

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So after four track days this year, three at Le Mans circuit and one at Fontenay Le Compte, both here in France I confirm that:

 

1/ I suck

2/ I cannot quick turn the bike

3/ I'm afraid to quick turn the bike

4/ I'm braking way early to be sure I can turn the bike "at my comfort level", which means if I do a corner in 2nd gear, the other guy is in 3rd...hell maybe even 4th.....

5/ I suck

 

I need the school and the slide bike......or I need to quick turn the bike many times until I break traction to find that limit.....and a willing sponsor to repair my bike thereafter!

 

I suck! :o

 

I know how you feel when you say that you will need to quick turn the bike until you break traction to find the limit. I used to feel the same about lean angle when cornering, I didn't know the limit so I thought the only way to find it would be to crash...

 

But that kind of thinking is just plain wrong - and dangerous!

 

I got a good bit of advice from Brendan Clarke (he won the Australian Superstock 1000 championship last year), I asked "how do I find the cornering limit? How do I know how much I can lean?" The answer is very straightforward and there couldn't be a more logical method when you think about it. The answer was to simply keep increasing your cornering speed gradually, bit by bit. If you enter a corner at 100km/h on one lap, and observe that the bike was settled with no problems then then next time around you can enter the corner a 102km/h, if all is well then continue entering the corner faster, 104, 106, 108km/h... (it helps to keep the same braking marker to avoid changing too many variables, just set your speed and maintain it until the corner, then you can more easily focus on your entry speed and turn point.) Actually that may be best to learn how fast you can enter a corner, but for actually practicing quick turn you probably don't want to change your entry speed, just move your turn point further back each time... even less variables that way, much easier.

 

If you take it gradually like that you won't ride over your limit. When the bike is getting close to the maximum cornering ability it will give you some warning signs before you completely lose traction - for example you'll get a bit of a slide, a bit of a wobble, you'll feel it's not as stable etc. The thing to remember is that you won't just 'lose traction' in a corner. (Of course assuming clean track surface, warm tyres, correct use of bike controls etc.) There is a 'traction zone' that moves from static friction to sliding friction, it's not just one or the other - there's a transition in between. It helped me to stop thinking primarily about lean angle in a turn and instead think about the feeling of traction, which will in turn determine your lean angle.

 

You can use the same method for the quick turn, if you use a certain steering rate on one lap, and it all goes okay - just increase the steering rate by a certain amount on the next lap, then again, practice, practice... It sounds like you may have a hard time with the other riders you're grouped with, but I'd just try and focus on my own thing and let them ride around you. Even better if you can move into a slower group just to take it easy and practice some drills.

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I tried that back in 1983, every morning increasing the speed by about 0.5 mph until one morning I fell off :unsure: At the time I blamed the shaft drive (still do to some extent) since when the rear suddenly let go, I chopped the throttle, went to raise the bike and hit the front brakes to slow before leaning in again and continue. Only the moment the throttle closed, the shaft lifted the tyre clean off the road and I learned that metal on asphalt gives very limited traction. The bike had sense to swivel down the road while I decided to park my self against a lamp post and the resulting smashed bones.

 

In retrospect, it was a cool morning, I had only ridden 3 miles, my Yamaha XJ750 was on stock Bridgerocks and I were already scraping muffler, centre stand, side stand and peg heavily. So I guess I can thank myself...

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... when the rear suddenly let go, I chopped the throttle, ...

 

From what you just said it seems like you already know the real problem in that situation. wink.gif

I'll bet you didn't continue to chop the throttle quite the same again...

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Oh, I do - when the rear goes. It's an instinct. Not a good one, I admit, but apart from that one time I've always saved the day. It did get close one time when I whacked the throttle open in 2nd gear doing 55 mph in 2nd gear on my CB1100F one sunny day back in 1990, though. I were at full lock when the tyre regained traction and continuned to catapult me into what should have been a perfect highsider. Somehow, I clung to the handlebars as I went into a perfect handstand - I looked straight back and there were nothing there but road since the legs were so high I couldn't see them at all, the bike flopping from side to side underneath me. As luck would have it, I can down just as the bike had settled and landed - a bit harsh - on the seat again and could continue on my way.

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So after four track days this year, three at Le Mans circuit and one at Fontenay Le Compte, both here in France I confirm that:

 

1/ I suck

2/ I cannot quick turn the bike

3/ I'm afraid to quick turn the bike

4/ I'm braking way early to be sure I can turn the bike "at my comfort level", which means if I do a corner in 2nd gear, the other guy is in 3rd...hell maybe even 4th.....

5/ I suck

 

I need the school and the slide bike......or I need to quick turn the bike many times until I break traction to find that limit.....and a willing sponsor to repair my bike thereafter!

 

I suck! :o

 

You need to get trained and CSS is the place. The lean bike will not teach you how to Quick flip the bike. Don't be hard on yourself it only make things worse. From what you describe you are going way to fast for your skill. Slow down, follow good lines and flip yer bike. :D

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Thanks guys....I've taken note of your comments. :D

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Keith Code once said that it was impossible to quick turn a bike too quickly in the dry. i.e. you cannot break traction in the act of getting the bike from upright to the desired lean angle.

 

The point about quick turning is the longer you take to get the bike from upright to leant over the more lean angle you will need to execute the corner at the same speed as someone who turned their bike more quickly.

Stated another way : the more quickly you get the bike leant over the less lean angle you will need.

Quick turning is about reaching your desired rate of turn as quickly as possible rather than wasting time gently heeling the bike into the turn.

 

I think its explained very well in Twist II.

What isn't covered is some of the techniques used to make quick turning less stressful and keep the bike as stable as possible.

I think its level 3 that you are taught about stressing the outside leg and pushing from the outside footpeg through the bar: very useful in controlling those corner entry wobbles!

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So after four track days this year, three at Le Mans circuit and one at Fontenay Le Compte, both here in France I confirm that:

 

1/ I suck

2/ I cannot quick turn the bike

3/ I'm afraid to quick turn the bike

4/ I'm braking way early to be sure I can turn the bike "at my comfort level", which means if I do a corner in 2nd gear, the other guy is in 3rd...hell maybe even 4th.....

5/ I suck

 

I need the school and the slide bike......or I need to quick turn the bike many times until I break traction to find that limit.....and a willing sponsor to repair my bike thereafter!

 

I suck! :o

 

The way Keith laid it out to us in the classroom session was, that he had been trying for years to get the front to tuck whilst quick-turning but he'd yet to manage it. You then think to yourself that if he can't manage it, then surely I'm not going to be able to, this then gives you the confidence to go out and try it, and it's a revelation.

 

 

 

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FR35

Lots o technical tips, technology and maybe even some destructive advice in here.  

May I suggest FIRST priority to read first 2 pages of Twist 1 Chapter 2 ... About one thousand times

Justin

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'35, you for sure need to update us on this if we get you to a school this coming year!!!!

 

CF

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You are clearly smart, well read and committed.

 

I have one suggestion:

 

stop practicing in a racing situation. Instead, let the other riders go, then find corners and lines where you have plenty of room to turn wider, then choose to turn quicker at your own speed. Spend a whole track day letting the faster riders slip ahead while you look for places to play with your quick turning skills.

 

Either that or drive up to Silverstone. :rolleyes: You'll get it.

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The way Keith laid it out to us in the classroom session was, that he had been trying for years to get the front to tuck whilst quick-turning but he'd yet to manage it. You then think to yourself that if he can't manage it, then surely I'm not going to be able to, this then gives you the confidence to go out and try it, and it's a revelation

Just a confirmation on that, really.

 

I asked Andy Ibbot the Stupid Question: Is it possible to turn a bike too quick? His answer: "Theoretically, yes. In practice? Never - can't be done."

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The way Keith laid it out to us in the classroom session was, that he had been trying for years to get the front to tuck whilst quick-turning but he'd yet to manage it. You then think to yourself that if he can't manage it, then surely I'm not going to be able to, this then gives you the confidence to go out and try it, and it's a revelation

Just a confirmation on that, really.

 

I asked Andy Ibbot the Stupid Question: Is it possible to turn a bike too quick? His answer: "Theoretically, yes. In practice? Never - can't be done."

As I recall Andy's his comments on this in my Level 1, he added that this assumed dry tarmac and warm tires.

 

/Kai

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