Jaybird180

How does the radius increase on a bike leaned to the inside of a turn when no bar input has been applied (assuming the tires are not sliding)?

There is a school (won't name names) that has it's students tracing circles in a parking lot as a foundation to cornering on a racetrack. I don't know if this is all they teach but I had an extensive discussion with it's founder and noted author (hint, hint). Are you saying that this has no merit?

Whacked open not implied here Hence my example. A sweeper is a semi-circle, is it not? That could be a key phrase in your reply. Agreed. Geometric circles don't have an entry nor exit. Obviously in this example you'd have to begin SOMEWHERE and quit the exercise SOMEWHERE, presuming that you don't land on your butt. Why do you think you'd fall? Would it be lowside or highside? What is the cause? -Disclaimer- I'm not challenging your knowledge on this subject it's just my way of illustrating to a point of absurdity for understanding and clarity.

JB; I'll try to answer your last question in practical terms (not in theory) because theory gets scant attention when your sliding on your butt across the track. If you're at maximum lean angle and you add any appreciable acceleration (or braking force) - you will break the rear (or both) tire(s) loose. Key word here is maximum meaning the limit of lean for a given speed, suspension settings, surface conditions, temperature and tire wear, etc.) I have lowsided at what turned out to be maximum lean by adding throttle once and braking twice. None of these were in theory and all caused me much grief. Kevin That's why I asked the question about disagreeing with TC rule #1. As I understand it, once in the turn the throttle is rolled on smoothly evenly and throughout the remainder of turn. This 40 foot question is a hyper example of a sweeper, is it not?

1) Yes the radius would increase as speed does as long and you don't put an input into the bars. That would appear to disagree with TC Rule #1 I don't think it would. Increasing speed without increasing lean makes you go wider. Maintaining speed and increasing lean would tighten the circle. Perhaps I missed something. Imagine this: You're at full max lean. The force applied to the rear tire (acceleration) causes a downward force (relative to the tank, not relative to earth), which presses the tires harder into the tarmac. The ground pushes back, increasing traction. This load must be absorbed and is absorbed by the front and rear springs. Eventually you will either run out of ground clearance due to compressed suspension (which IMHO may or may not happen even in a bottomed suspension, but that's another discussion), run out of traction (based on tires) or run out of engine power. Why would the turn radius increase? What would put the rider on the ground? What am I missing?

JB; That's a question for Stuman or Cobie to answer. I get into trouble when I try to sound like I know what I am talking about. Kevin But I did find it interesting that it took him 2 corners to setup that pass. I saw it coming and it was beautiful. I was rolling my right hand wishing I had more power....er... he had more power.

Hey Francisco, Yes as long as you speak and understad english pretty well this should not be a problem. Well there are lots of great places to stay in Vegas, it all depends on how much you want to spend. The Bellagio is real nice and so is The Venetian and Mandaly Bay. These are all on "The Strip" so there is tons of stuff for your wife to do while you are at the school. For something more afordable on "The Strip", Circus Circus has very cheap rooms, but it is not as nice. The hotels down town are closer to the track where you will be riding, but there is still plenty of stuff for your wife to do. Vega.com has a lot of infor about all the hotels and they sometimes have some pretty good deals too. We use the infield road course for the school and I assume that we will have the new '09 ZX6R to ride this year. We typically get new bikes when Kawisaki releases a new model. You can see the track layout here http://www.lvms.com/seating_chart.html , we use the couse on the inside of the speedway where it sayes "Rv parking". The folks in Vegas may never speak to me again when I say this but.... When I went to Vegas I got a vacation rental house. Waaaaaaaaaaaay cheaper than a hotel. I was about 10 mins from the strip by car. I don't think I'll ever rent a hotel in vegas for that reason. Just use your favorite search engine to find vacation rentals.

It was hard to hear him get it right with all the dang blasted music. It looked to me like he ran wide at around the 3 min mark from running in too deep. Later in the video it seemed that he didn't have reference points and began to turn in too early as he used the bike in front to tell him what to do. So how did I do teach?

1) Yes the radius would increase as speed does as long and you don't put an input into the bars. That would appear to disagree with TC Rule #1

If you have a fixed lean position and constant speed going around the circle, I'm guessing basic physics would keep you in the turn not giving for tire slippage and wear, depending on how long you would do it. To stay in the circle when increasing speed you would have to increase lean angle which would decrease ground clearance. Is there any way to do this circle while observing TC Rule #1 and Steering Rule #1?

So, are you saying that a RP is something that can be moving? Because as a rider, you are moving. What is your def. of a RP? My definition of a RP is a location or object on or near the track you can use to tell you where you are. You don't want to use moving RP's that creates more of a survival reaction such as following someone else around the track and focusing on them instead of your own reference points. That can lead to a crash real quick. By using your reference points and refering to where you currently are you can put together your line for that corner. So, since you would be moving, would you be a RP? A RP is simply a point of timing. A location that tells you it's time to do something (or nothing). Although we can think in terms of the world moving around us, using yourself as a RP in this case would be pointless.

Any updated info on this? JB; Cobie's off the Forum and won't be back until the end of this week so I don't think you'll get an answer until then. Kevin Thanks Kevin. It's not a deal breaker anyhow so it can wait until then. I rode one of their '07's two months ago and that bike was awesome. I know the '09's will be an improvement but the '07 was lighter, faster and turned quicker that the anything I have been on so it was all good. Kevin I'm a Honda man. After sitting on the 09' ZX6 and ZX10 at the Motorcycle Show this weekend it's got me re-thinking my position on Mad Kaw Disease.

Any updated info on this? JB; Cobie's off the Forum and won't be back until the end of this week so I don't think you'll get an answer until then. Kevin Thanks Kevin. It's not a deal breaker anyhow so it can wait until then.

Any updated info on this?

Bones is Da Man

Let's say you were to lean a bike over and put it into a 40 foot diameter (or radius) circle turn. In a perfect world and no additional steering changes or pressure on the bars, you roll on the throttle just enough to keep the suspension loaded. Would these things happen: 1. Bike increase this 40 foot diameter circle 2. Decrease in ground clearance 3. Increase in lean angle as speed increased 4. Eventually break tire traction ?

According to that link I can expect as much as 90 minutes in traffic. Not a good idea to be late to class, wouldn't you say? Where would one recommend for lodging, keeping the proposed itenerary in mind?

What's the best airport to fly into? I plan to spend a day or 2 touring before my school date. I also looking for recommendations for lodging.

QT may be a better option on a track only bike. How well does it work on a street bike? I ride both. On top of that I've lowered my gearing (I'll change it back one day...)

Good idea, lets start with LMAO (I can guess, but to be sure)... Where would we put this? Some kind of FAQ's? There are several abbreviation dictionaries to be found on the WWW

While I meditate on your new article, thanks for giving me the excuse to use my new vocabulary words and share with the forum Proprioception 1 The unconscious perception of movement and spatial orientation arising from stimuli within the body itself. -The American Heritage® Medical Dictionary 2 The kinesthetic sense. The sense that deals with sensations of body position, posture, balance, and motion. -Jonas: Mosby's Dictionary of Complementary and Alternative Medicine 3 The subconscious sensation of body and limb movement and position, obtained from non-visual sensory input from muscle spindles and joint capsules -McGraw-Hill Concise Dictionary of Modern Medicine (from Wikipedia) Kinesthesia is another term that is often used interchangeably with proprioception, though use of the term "kinesthesia" can place a greater emphasis on motion. Kinesthesia is a key component in muscle memory and hand-eye coordination, and training can improve this sense. The ability to swing a golf club or to catch a ball requires a finely-tuned sense of the position of the joints. This sense needs to become automatic through training to enable a person to concentrate on other aspects of performance, such as maintaining motivation or seeing where other people are. Cheers

Do NOT be surprised if I take you up on that...I'm having withdrawals now. (must.....post.....more......) (nnnnnneeeed......more.....forum......participation........need.......more...... .forum........)

JB and I talked a little about this, here's a short version of my response. 1. I make sure I have no throttle play. Some people like some, I like just about zero. I roll the throttle back and forth, check the play, adjust it out (make sure done correctly, once I adjusted it too far, came off the thread). Also check (with engine runnig) that it doesn't add throttle when turning the bars. 2. When I position my hand for braking, I roll it forward. These 2 things keep me from having to reposition mid - turn. What do you guys do? C Cobie et al, To respond to your post and your PM: It's never a problem at anything less than....say 90% throttle. I have good range of motion and small changes in throttle position results in small changes in RPM. I have my brake lever adjusted down, but I could revisit that. I also recall that when I got this done (hand adjustment) I could leave it there for the remainder of the lap. I recall changing position in the 3rd section of ess (duh....this is followed by the back straight/ kink- the fastest portion of the circuit). So basically for 1/5 of the lap I had 10%-100% throttle and the other 4/5ths lap I had 0-90%. I still don't recall when mid-corner I changed my hand, just that I did so I could get that hard drive for the exit leading to the only real straight on the circuit. Would this be the correct technique?

I have a question for the forum on throttle hand position. I'm thinking about something and for some reason I don't quite recall how I changed my grip on the throttle to be able to roll full throttle. I know it sounds silly, but I recall countersteering to max lean and then rotating my hand forward so that I could roll the throttle. I was above mid throttle by the time I reached the apex. Somehow, after coutersteering, I would manipulate my hand to be at a comfortable position so that by the time I would get tucked back in after the exit I was at full throttle. I just for the life of me can't seem to recall at what point in the turn I would do this. It seemed that I had LOADS of time to make any adjustments I needed to get comfy mid-turn; so much that I discovered that I had my right hand at an awkward angle (but that's unrelated). If you change your hand position, at what point do you do it? (if you have a stock throttle)

I'm building a relationship at the local (and only) Racetech shop. I've spoken with the owner and we have an agreement for me to donate my time helping out at race weekends. That way I get to learn hands-on.