Jaybird180

A few years ago, I went down and still to this day I don’t know how it happened. I am hoping to provide as much detail, so that in hindsight I can understand what happened and not do it again. At the time I was about 230lbs (fully dressed) riding stock suspension on my F4i. I was wearing Dunlop D208 tires which had about 3 trackdays and an unknown thousand street miles of use on them. Visually, they were fine and never exhibited any slipping issues except once in the wet on the left side in a residential area (suspected to have happened due to wet autumn leaves). I was consistent with daily tire pressure checks but I’ve thrown away that pen-style gauge after discovering that it was cheap and faulty. This day I’d caught up with a previously unknown rider on a newer 600rr where we tested our straight-line speed. After that was over, we met at the gas station and talked a bit and decided to venture over to a nearby twisty road that I’d been through several times. The road was unfamiliar to him, and I kept looking back to ensure I wasn’t leaving him. A bit agitated by the break in rhythm, I kept trying to encourage him to stay closer so he could observe my lines, but he either didn’t understand or wouldn’t comply. Either way, I wasn’t going to leave him. This was a bright and sunny midday with no adverse weather or visible fluid spills, road debris, etc to my knowledge. The section in question has a mild elevation change with a mild ess. I glanced back to see where the rider was and decided that he was falling a bit behind again. I then went through the right and decided to slow a bit before the left by using a little front brake. I also downshifted so I could gain some rpm back. I’m off the brake as I tipped into the flat left (not a quick turn). I fully expected to get to my desired lean angle and glide into the left turn. Instead, I was on my left side and sliding on the ground towards a light pole off the road into the grass. Stopping well short of the pole, I was unharmed. The frame sliders did their job, but my new leathers weren’t so new anymore. No harm except a little embarrassment and a broken left mirror and clutch lever. The following rider said he saw the rear tire lockup, but I felt NOTHING except the impact of the pavement. ANYONE have ANY suggestions or clues as to the cause of this crash? (even if it's wild and crazy)

One of the things that I do at about my 2nd or 3rd lap is to try and pick out the geometric points of the track. I try and ignore any surface irregularities, elevation or camber issues and then work from there. Reading your post though, I thought of some previous posts written by BONES that I'd like to link to here as I think they are relevant: http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.ph...tart=#entry9541 http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.ph...p;st=#entry9264

I can see your point, as my bringing up Capirossi does seem off topic. Perhaps I could have said it this way: 1- Observation <> (does not equal) conclusive 2- There's a problem with the logic stated above and that problem comes in when we use words that hint at "always". Mathematically speaking, it's been stated that: Rider at x lean angle, y speed = z turn radius Rider at x lean angle, y+q speed = z+ [q (factor)] turn radius Although this may be correct in some circumstances, it is not consistent across the board. In other words, there are times: Rider at x lean angle at y+q speed <> z+ [q (factor)] turn radius And poor technique is not the ONLY reason to account for this. Here's a personal experience example (we're waaaaaay off topic here, but whattheheck, right?) A couple of years ago at ViR Patriot during my 5th session of the day, I'd gotten happy with my consistency. I could hit the TP, apex, exit nearly blind in a particular section; I was on it! (or so I thought) I was already at max lean for my given BP as I had consistent knee pressure on the tarmac. I changed NOTHING else during that session, except going in faster and faster and getting on the gas harder and harder, yet my turn radius didn't yet change until I was ready for it to. Why not? I was too slow and nowhere near the edge of performance. I was in the top of my riding group, but there were groups that were much faster. Once I loosened up with the new speed and allowed the bike to get closer to the rumble strip on exit did my turn radius change. Then, I could go even faster. Nevertheless, I had accepted the answer as posted by HOTFOOT from Will (which coincidentally was hinted at earlier:

I'm saying that is is NOT correct that for a fixed lean angle turn radius is ALWAYS directly proportional to speed. I'm saying that there are other factors can vary this, poor technique being just one. How about another? Dani Pedrosa and Nicky Hayden: same bike, same lean angle, same corner speed...Dani can turn tigher than Nicky. Riders like Capirossi are perfect for this discussion. I've heard that his cornerspeed is usually within 1/10th of a kilometer on successive laps, and that he can hit nickels lap after lap with his RPs. I wonder what he'd say?

Sorry folks http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/557/2225/Mot...-Cancelled.aspx

Hello Buckeye, and welcome. We've had every kind of bike you can imagine at the school, and they all respond to the same techniques, so you are in with the rest of us corning junkies. We used to do Harley only schools a while back, and my coach bike was a full - dresser. Fun to ride, wouldn't lean over that far, but fun to ride. Best, Cobie I was convinced when my MSF instructor did the figure 8 course with a fully dressed Goldwing. No student could then have any excuses on the 250 afterwards.

Considering that poor technique can account for differences in lean angle to negotiate a turn, can we really consider this a good example? Can we deduce as an absolute that turn radius is directly proportional to the factors of lean angle and speed? I can think of an aviation example (3-dimensional world) where it is not, but since were not talking 2-dimensional, I’m not so eager to agree. Poor technique has nothing to do with it, the 50 degrees is an example of a lean angle at 2 different speeds! no matter what your lean angle is a 100 mph turn will always be a bigger radius than a 40 mph turn! Can you lean a bike to 50 degrees at 30mph, 60mph, 90mph?

Hotfoot tried nudging a complete answer out of Keith, but he's being tight-lipped :-) Apparently Keith isn't so much "being tight-lipped" as he is "being out of town." Yes, I went racing, it was great, pretty happy with a fourth place finish, as there were some much faster bikes mixed in the class. And yes, Cobie, you can take the blame for getting me hooked on this expensive sport. CodeRACE was a great preparation, I am SO glad I did that first. And BTW, where is YOUR answer to this burning question about circles? I might have gotten a podium finish if I had known the answer BEFORE the race. I was paying attention to this when I was riding, I had a good long turn with a constant radius to try it, and it sure did FEEL to me like the front tire (maybe the back too, not sure) was losing ground and that was the thing that was making the radius bigger. Hotfoot- Do you think that what's now posted would have helped you during your race weekend? Why or why not?

Where can I find this article?

Makes sense to me too. Considering that poor technique can account for differences in lean angle to negotiate a turn, can we really consider this a good example? Can we deduce as an absolute that turn radius is directly proportional to the factors of lean angle and speed? I can think of an aviation example (3-dimensional world) where it is not, but since were not talking 2-dimensional, I’m not so eager to agree. Thank you for taking the time to write this; means a lot and frankly is some clean and clear stuff. On one level it appears to speak directly to the discussion, and on another appears to be a non-sequitur. And it is on the non-sequitous part that it invites new questions. Thankfully, as I allow time for the questions to be properly formed, I am comforted by your use of the term ‘art of cornering’. This very well could be the thing to save me from having a premature linguistic ejection . Thanks for the good stuff.

You've got a good souce of Material in T1 about attention grabbers. Certainly any barrier can be an attention robber. To answer your question about spending <$1 on it, I would say that I do. My BP is a result of the product I want and not the other way round. Perhaps it will work for you if you switch it around in your head. In fact, if you go back and re-read some of your older posts it seems to be a major focus for you (which you've already discovered). You are NOW ready! So pat yourself on the back.

Where are you getting updated info? Check it out here: http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=35430 So Mladin has changed his number....again (sigh). Isn't Yamaha in the series with an official entry?

Number one for sure, number four is unlikely. Keith Jaybird asked a follow up question - what exactly is the mechanism the CAUSES the radius of the circle to increase, if the rider does not add any steering input? Intuitively I thought that if you rolled on the throttle (possibly harder than Jaybird was thinking in his quote above) the increased forces would make the bike want to stand up and go wider, but I am told that this is not true, that with no rider input the bike's lean angle will not change when the throttle is rolled on. So, is that correct? And if so, what IS it that makes the bike travel a larger circle, slippage of the tires? Does this depend on bike setup? Well, let's analyze this step by painstaking step. Keith said yes to #1 but no to #4. WHAT????? Hmmmmm.....so the turn radius increases, but not because the tires are slipping. Is that about right? Humbly, Mr. Code. I'm going to have to ask that you dress that chicken a bit more before you send it across the road.

I know I've nailed it primarily through the sense of stability through the turn. I also know when I did't do anything stupid to induce a SR throughout and I've followed TC Rule#1 and Steering Rule #1. The indicators of hitting rumble strips on exit, smoking someone, spinning and sliding all feel good but they can deceptively come from poor technique as well. What gives a rider that inner smile? How do we know that we are patting ourselves on the back for duplicating "wrong"?

+1 on what Kevin said. Although motorcycle hardware has changed in the last 17 years, the software that runs between the ears hasn't. Semper Fidelis

I think that's a good one. I recall a study with Athletes where there was one group who mentally practiced, and another group who actually did the physical practice. The study's outcome was that game performance was nearly (astonishingly to the researchers) identical. The physical athletes has a slight edge in results. What was discovered is that the mind didn't care whether the rehearsal was real or actual, it was rehearsed the same. Contrast that with Keith's writing on mentally running your favorite circuit as mentioned in Twist2. Interesting... BTW- Does anyone know what that study was called?

I like Tommy, but if I were a betting man I wouldn't put my money on him. Anyone know where I can find out who is in this year? Their new website SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUKS.

Where are you getting updated info?

What would the team owner rather see?

The fifth Amendment to the US Constitution (of the 10 Bill of Rights) grants a citizen the right to refuse to answer a question, if by answering that question he is implicating himself in a crime. It is also used jovially. It is often used by a husband as a retort to a wife who asks, "Did you......?"

I'm bumping the rev limiter in 6th What speed are you doing when you hit the rev limiter in 6th, I only ever hit the limiter in top gear on massive straights or on the German autobahn! My bike tops out at 168 mph on the clock, thats why I considered changing my gearing as I felt I could sacrifice some top end speed for a little bit more acceleration as on the roads 168 mph is very illegal! I plead the 5th Sir.

Moto GP A duke out: Casey, Valentino, Sete, Nicky. It's about time for Vermeulen and Hopkins to throw their hats into the ring....no wait...Kawasaki is out of the picture...sorry John...real bummer too. World SBK Ben Spies top 3 (at least)...and count on him to duke it out week in and week out. Champions could be: Biaggi, Checa, Noriyuki Haga (my vote), and Jonathan Rea. But you can't leave out Neukirchner and Kagayama...they're strong and upcoming...Neukirchner is hungry too! Now that I think about it....I think Ben Spies or Noriyuki Haga for Champ. Nori hasn't yet impressed me with his mentality. He rides awesome and I like him, but he's just missing that key ingredient. So, I go with.......hell, I don't know! The field is so good....... AMA American Superbike What's that? http://admin.amaproracing.com/assets/D200-EntryList.pdf

OT: I saw somewhere that the top teams take everything with them in the trailer just for the purpose of familiarity. Even the catering is familiar.

I'm bumping the rev limiter in 6th

I didn't "leave" out Rossi. In this particular instance I was commenting on the articles that I had read. But I'm glad you brought him up! What makes Rossi SO interesting is that his mind is SO strong....and I've been watching this for years, that he has a tremendous psychological advantage over the field. It seems that other riders do things to ensure that Rossi will win. When Pedrosa crashed into Hayden in 07 near the end of the season, I thought for sure it was a manifestation of "Rossi-ness". I think Stoner was also a victim of the Rossi-ness. Many have fallen victim to it: Biaggi (poor, poor Max), Gibernau (he got under his skin so much). Somehow. Hayden has managed to be the exception! Rossi, early in mentoring phase of Hayden's GP career cut him off when he became a threat, taunting him even. But IMHO because of Nicky's "stick-to-it-tiveness" pushed through to become the lead Repsol rider when Valentino moved to Yamaha. I think this has helped Nicky grow up, much in the way Mladin helped Spies.