dbtriple

Those Triumphs are fun, but wouldn't be my first choice for a serious track bike. You could try one of the school's hire bikes as an option too. Something to consider. Level 3 will work on your body quite a bit, and your lower body will get worked over nicel--if you don't already, a little conditioning work can help prepare you (bicycle riding is good for one). Best, CF Dear Cobie, I'm 6 foot 6 tall, so the 600cc bikes are a little on the small side. I'll just keep the triple going for now, I know it's not a serious track bike but it'll have to do me! I'm already preparing the legs for the onslaught of activity which awaits. regards db

Thanks for the tip mate. I think I should just get a track bike.......keep the speedy for the road! Cheers db

Thanks for the help fellas! Just booked level 3 December 10 at Eastern creek, will have a dig before then though! db

Dear helpful readers. Completed a ride day at Eastern Creek last Friday. Despite my best intentions, I didn't ignore the argy-bargy of the race track and work on the drills I had decided on for the day, it just turned out to mostly be "trying to catch that bastard who just got past me "! OK, I did try and work a bit on setting corner speed through better braking, and relaxing on the bike, but you know how it goes! Anyway, my observations of those who were going consistently fast had one thing in common - that being the body positioning. I was going as fast as those who didn't get their arses off the seats, but all those who passed me had the cheek off the seat or knee down. So I suppose I'm looking for a bit of reassurance that level 3 will give me the ammo to take on these knee down devils on a common footing! I just felt I was outgunned out there, not the bike, which I reckon would have to be at least competitive, but in the technical department, namely body positioning which I have alluded to earlier. Can it be learned by all? How can I be persuaded to loosen my arse-grip on the seat? It doesn't feel that good......probably doing it wrong. In addition to this, since I have a speed triple, with relatively high bars, I was wondering if adding clipons would be a way of aiding body positioning via lowering body height? thanks in advance. ps I didn't put this under the track day section, since I didn't consider it a success! regards db

Dear Ozfireblade, At CSS level one , they'll tell you that if you keep pushing the bar when countersteering, you will eventually put the bike on its side. Which is not what you want. If you were to push the bar, set the lean angle, keep constant speed,then take your hands off the bar, if you had enough room you'd just do one big giant circle, of course assuming that the throttle position was set constant (bit hard with no hands.) The lean angle would remain constant without any further steering input. You may think you're pushing that bar to countersteer like mad, but your survival reactions are subconsciously getting you to resist by the same amount on the other bar! Becoming aware of countersteering allows you to properly control the lean angle of the bike. You are already doing it, as others have said, because this is how motorcycles and pushbikes turn. Practice it, drill it and use it, especially during "stressful situations" and you will have a new level of control over the bike. Good luck! db

Dear Luiz, Keith's books say a couple of things that can help you. For one thing, it is better to have the braking finished before you turn in for the corner. This way you can put all your attention onto your corner speed. So start braking earlier, finish earlier, and set your speed right for the corner! After you get your corner speed set ok, then you can think about braking later, but always keeping it smooth.If you finish your braking before the turn, then you will have no problem with no room for your foot on the brake lever. Also, on the track, the rear brake is not much good for slowing down; if you are braking the front tyre takes most of the braking forces, and the rear tyre is sometimes in the air! Best to let the front do the braking and forget about the rear. So that's a couple of things for you, remember your $10 of attention, and use it first for braking, then you can re spend it on the corner speed. Good luck! db

My experience on the track totally sums up the example in TOTW, in trying to improve lap times I'd dive in later and harder on the anchors, and become more unstable, spending all my 10 dollars of attention on the braking instead of thinking about increasing corner speed and spending my attention on that! Once this is realised, if you can pick out a start of braking marker and finish of braking marker, with a view toward increasing corner speed, even if you start braking too early, if you carry more speed through the turn you'll be better off. 1mph faster average speed per lap equals 1 second in general, according to totw. At first your lap times may increase as you experiment with your braking markers, but once you get your corner speed right and braking markers are set, the full benefit will become available. Good luck! db

Jody you must have killed a chinaman to have the bad luck to get that pass made on you. Even after he used you as a berm he still ran wide! What a plonker. And in the rain too. The only way he could have made that turn on that line at that pace would be......no I don't think it could be done. Get well soon mate and you'll be hanging off again in no time regards db

Well that's the end of my ideas. Perhaps lower pressures suit some tyres and riding styles....maybe learners like myself on the track prefer a lower pressure/ quicker warm up to get the tyres to their optimum operating range....but the css guys run low pressures too.....I'll continue to run lower pressures, in the past when I ran higher pressures, the tyres "blued" at the edges and scalloped pretty badly. Much better now. I run Pilot Power 2CTs front and rear by the way. But after reading atotw AGAIN I'm changing to a Pilot power at least on the rear......because they grip too well and I'm learning nothing about control. On an older bike with sports touring tyres on, I was sliding it, now with a better bike and grippier tyres, there's no blackies! db

Was the tyre tech talking about hot or cold tyre pressure? If you started at 36 cold, pretty quick it would end up in the 40s.....and that's not going to be good from my experience....in terms of tyre wear.

Hey Busa..... Your experience sounds a bit like mine pre level 1. I can only say that it is the start of the journey, but it will definitely improve your confidence levels immensely. You won't be knee down the next day (probably) but you'll have a new understanding of what makes the bike work, and it will cut through the well-meaning but misguided advice of others to show you demonstrable techniques which you can then work on improving. Take on level 1 and you'll be laughing like a fat spider..... db

That's rich.... a pommie and a yank talking about good beers! db

I'll tell you in my own post in a moment my friend. We all make mistakes, so it's no dirty little secret, I assure you. With respect to your problem, what is your fear of the edge of the road? what is it you feel is going to happen? What is the consequence of you turning in too close to the centre of the road, does it give you problems on your exits? Bullet Having done level 2 and the slow laps of the course, inside, outside and middle, and noticing the amount of room that is available, I thought I'd be over the tendency to not push wide enough on the road. But it still continues! More than occasionally, although not exclusively. There is one right hander in particular which springs to mind. Fast, off camber, downhill sweeper. I'm guaranteed to stuff it, although it is improving a bit....generally I now get the entry a bit better then discover I could have gone heaps quicker. The consequences are, for me, a very slow line when the problem does occur.....I'm over the tendency to run wide by trying to do it too quick....its almost like I know I'm going to blow it before I do it.....very frustrating. You know....you turn too close to centre line, don't really want to cross over centreline ......so slow down, sit the bike up and putt around. So thats some more detail..... cheers mate db

What exactly do you mean dptriple about unexpected answers coming from strange sources? It is a forum after all and as long as people are writing within the parameters of what we are discussing then there should be no problem, I for one think its a good thing that people are putting forward their opinions of cornering a motorbike even if sometimes you dont agree with what they say, in most occasions people will back up their statements with a section from one of Keiths books which makes it hard to argue but great for discussing. For as long as I have been using this forum, I have seen regular posters improving and writing about overcoming riding barriers and that includes racers and coaches, and I find that encouraging to keep pushing myself, I have even been involved in discussions with Keith Code himself regarding specific sections of the twist books, I cant think of a better source of information than that! I would like to see more people posting and joining discussions here, without being worried about being seen as putting forward unreliable information, if you doubt what someone has to say it maybe worth questioning why? Acebobby, I only meant that sometimes the threads move in welcome and unexpected directions - and more info than the original question needed sometimes helped in unexpected ways. I by no means meant to imply that unreliable info was being put forward, although now I'm a bit worried..... . regards db

Fair enough on the salaries I was only pulling your legs! and fair enough on the rest of it too....it's just that the forum has been a bit quiet lately......I'll try and think up a question or two.....it's not as if I don't need help believe me! Just hard to know what to ask sometimes, and as you must have noticed sometimes unexpected answers come from srange sources.......

To all you riding coaches out there.... I am sometimes loath to start a topic....but I have been enjoying the sort of brain teasers that Cobie puts out there sometimes, asking about what our most important part of cornering etc is. But they have been few and far between lately! It's discouraging when there are so few new posts or new and intriguing topics when you log in. I post questions as and when they occur to me, but with all these highly paid riding coaches out there , I want them to earn their wages and keep the forum vibrant! So the challenge is there.....get those brain teasing questions out into public! You never know where they might lead you know.....hopefully to better understanding of the art of cornering.

It could be a combination of limited tyre choices for this year during races, (Casey's crash at Laguna and Lorenzo's(I think he had one too) were attributed to not having a special asymmetrical tyre for the track, and the "off" side being too cold too early) and not having specialized qualifiers anymore.....plenty of crashes in qualifying!

Is it not also true that a narrower section tyre turns quicker than a wider section? Quite apart from the question of what size rim comes with the bike - If they are designed for a 180 stock, you'd have to think that was the optimum.......it could adversely affect the dynamics by sticking a wider tyre on than was intended.

I rekon your seat profile could have a lot to do with it (or I could be proved wrong...) for example your Ducati or GSXR has little more than a padded slide to perch your cheeks on, but other bikes with considerable abilities yet a slightly different take on proceedings (I am obviously referring to my speed triple as an example here) have a seat that one can comfortably tour on due to good padding and comfortable profile, but those very attributes makes it nigh on impossible to lever one's derriere by use of the inside knee, imho. It'd have to be an up and over I'd say! Having said that I've seen blokes on the same bike as mine knee down on the track, whilst I haven't attempted it myself just yet, still focussing on other factors. Well I suppose there have been the odd occasions where I might have dangled the knee toward the track, only to be sadly disappointed by the lack of proximity between the road surface and the hopeful limb. Getting off topic I guess!

I'd always had an interest in bikes, but early experiences in crashing cars had somehow got through my adolescent brain to tell me that I should wait before getting a bike. So anyway, My missus was pregnant with our first child, and although some people might give away "dangerous" pursuits at this juncture in their lives, I thought if I didn't do it before the baby came it would never happen. (wife was fairly supportive I must say....) The NSW licensing laws said that if I got my provisional bike license after having full driving license for 5 years , then I could get any capacity of bike that I wanted straight away.....being 6'6" I couldn't fit onto much comfortably. Got a Triumph Sprint ST 955i as my first bike. What a shock to the system! I couldn't turn it, and had that many close calls on the road that I thought I'd better do some training. Did Stay Upright at Oran Park, Sydney, and that was good for a beginner, really focussed on basics, but not so much on the cornering. So I went to a ride day or 2 at Eastern Creek and ran off a few times but managed to keep it upright. Spent some bucks on the suspension, of course believing it was the bike and not me that was causing the problems . This did improve the situation somewhat, as I could actually feel that there was a front wheel attached to the forks, the standard ST setup being undersprung and damped for my weight. But it still wasn't right! Got a lot of well meaning but misguided advice from mates, which ultimately proved fruitless without a proper system of training. So went to Australian Superbike School (as it was known then) for level one, and you know what happens there. The journey had begun! Level 2 followed earlier this year, with some back up track days, and my new Triumph Speed triple and I have a level of understanding now....all thanks to the CSS. It's still a matter of reviewing the drills and notes once in a while for me to keep the skills current in my mind, but I can't wait for level 3 early next year!

Thanks Bullet.....shouldn't you be sleeping? And don't worry we'll fix you up in the 2nd Test...........

Thanks for the responses everyone. The comments given have led me to the following conclusions 1 - the track is the track, with better visibility and the opportunity to have a much clearer field of vision, regardless of the radius of the turn. 2 - the road is a different kettle of fish, even if you know what the curve is like from experience is doesn't mean that there won't be some random hazard on it, eg dog, gravel pothole etc. So ride according to the vision available due to the environment. 3 - And utilise the drills that we learnt in level 2 ie REALLY looking ahead/around and position yourself to get the maximum line vision through a corner, also not forgetting the importance of peripheral vision in identifying hazards. cheers again, and point out any other techniques I may have forgotten to notice! db

G'day all, Just considering the 3 step cornering process of level 2. On track it seems to be much easier to be able to pin the vanishing point (step 3) and when I went to track days after level 2, the difference in corner speed that was available when actually looking properly at the vanishing point of the corner was noticeable. In fact it was quite shocking to realise how much faster I could have been going with the head in the right position looking at the right spot! I've still some work to do to achieve better results BUT..... On the road, it all seems a lot harder, mainly due to the fact that roads have trees/hills/barriers or whatever in the way of where the vanishing point should be wrt the shape of the curve. I suppose what I'm asking is what should you be looking for on the road, the vanishing point which is caused by terrain barriers or whatever, or "pretend" that you can see "through" the bend (doesn't sound right to me) in order to maintain better balance. Pre CSS other riders had mentioned "looking through the bend" but it didn't really do it for me. I hope the question makes sense....... db

With regard to thor's statement that gyroscopic effects are negligible, and that it is all scientifically proven, has anyone got a decent site that expounds this version of events? I did a quick google and not much came up debunking gyroscopic forces or angular momentum as being a significant factor in rotating wheels.....but I'm interested to read about it if a site can be provided. There are countless examples of rotating wheels providing stability through real life examples eg those Segway thingies use gyroscopes to automatically balance those hated devices, and anyone who has held a rotating bicycle wheel by the axle and moved the axle can attest to the fact that there is a significant force involved - so in Motorcycle wheels which are far more substantial AND with a tyre attached and travelling at much higher speeds, the force would have to be significant, indeed in my opinion a major factor in the handling properties of a motorcycle! But like I said if Thor can provide a link I'm willing to have a read of it in the pursuit of debunking myths wherever they may lie, especially if related to bikes!