Bullet

Really good posts there HotFoot and Fajita Dave, Anyone else care to offer their perspective on this? Bullet

I think I got the point. When analyzing my loose of the front, I can find the following reasons: 1) wrong line; the cambered corner turned into flat and I was still leaning too much => lost the front grip. 2) lazy turn; I wasn't steering quick enough considering the speed I used which lead me out of the best line to bumpy surface and because of lazy turn I need to use much more lean so the front lost the grip. Actually neither of these cases were related to throttle. On the other hand, couple of times I have cornered "very fast" related to my skills which actually scared me but remembering basic techniques I just flicked it into the corner and rolled on and boy, I made it despite of my fear. Great feeling indeed! FYI: I run R6R, stock forks and shock (loaded Sag 30 mm F / 28 mm R) YEC Kit ECU with quickshifter, Pirelli Diablo Slick, pressures 1,95 bar F / 1,80 bar R (warm pressure). Been wondering whether it makes sense to update the forks with a Cartridge Kit (Ohlins?) with linear springs? The stock springs are progressive and the pre-tension is almost on hardest setting in order to have the Sag on right range... The stock works fine on normal circumstances but in case I make a mistake, would a better fork setup "save my ass" - literally speaking?? You've probably got too much tyre compared to your forks, I'd suggest. Even WSS bikes don't have slicks on a 600. Have you tried putting a tie wrap around the front fork leg to measure how much travel your using? Additionally, the progressive fork springs aren't ideal for hard use, and you'd definitely be better with linear springs for you weight, and get the forks revalved. Final question for you my friend, how much weight do you carry in your arms? A bit, a fair bit? quite a lot? Bullet

I'm not so sure about you, but approaching a turn at say 150mph plus, when I need to get around it maybe around 70mph, normally requires me to brake.. just a little.. SO, my question to you Hubbard, (as I seem to be answering all the questions here.... LOL), is what is it that determine's what is the right line for a turn anyway...? I think you'll find the answer it TW2, page 18.....! Bullet

I think you may be misinterpretating Keiths words here. When does Keith suggest you should be getting back to 60/40, with the throttle rule? What are you as a rider typically doing before this time? In this time, where is more of the weight? Does being of the throttle move the weight to the front? Does trail braking add more or less weight to this? I also wonder what bike you have, what setup, and what tyres and pressure you're running ? I suspect that the really fast boys have super sticky tyres? Bullet I thought the principle was the same no matter whether the tyres were super sticky or sports tourers, unless of course you are refering to how the tyre performs before turn in, in which case then I agree the super sticky efforts will be able to withstand much higher forces during braking and decceleration, but I assume no matter what tyre your on after you have the bike steered you get on the throttle ASAP and achieve the 60-40 as described in the book? Bobby Exactly, it is....! The only difference in quicker riders and going much faster, is they brake for longer and deeper into the turn, and as you only come back to the throttle once you've finished braking, that period of coming back to the throttle is usually a little longer. Make sense? Bullet Okay, I'll bit the 'bullet' so-to-speak (LOL). I have to admit that on one level your answer seems dead-on, but on another level, it doesn't quite sit well with me; and I'd humbly suggest that it's over-simplified. I've heard it said that trying to make up time braking is a bad-idea. And one can see why if the newbie rider hears this, they abandon the other points of effective riding and think, "just get in deeper" and I'll go faster. I suppose this is the bravado that Valentino Rossi was talking about when comparing the GP style of riding to Superbike style. It always happens to me this.. I try my dammedest to keep it simple... but it just never happens... Am I over simplfying it.. Yeah, a bit. Trying to make up time on the brakes can indeed be a bad idea, but lets consider which part of the turn is most important? The start, or the exit? The answer of course is the exit, we need to get back to gas to start driving that bike as quickly as we can, so if we decide or Mid Corner speed is X, my question to you, is there time to be made up scrubbing speed off past the turn point getting to X, or just being off the brakes coasting into the turn to get to X? The answer to that is indeed yes, of course there is, hence why MotoGP riders, etc, do so. Are there problems with doing this, hell yeah, your chances of a low side are massively increased, as what are we doing here? Are we loading the front a lot and asking it to handle turning forces and braking forces. The most important thing is this, we still need to get back to gas as soon as we can, and back on it hard at the very earliest opporunity, however, as we all know, you never get back to it hard until after the Apex in most cases, and you can gain time by braking not neccesarily that much later, but just carrying more speed into the earlier part of the turn and for longer. Now, does that make sense..? Bullet

I think you may be misinterpretating Keiths words here. When does Keith suggest you should be getting back to 60/40, with the throttle rule? What are you as a rider typically doing before this time? In this time, where is more of the weight? Does being of the throttle move the weight to the front? Does trail braking add more or less weight to this? I also wonder what bike you have, what setup, and what tyres and pressure you're running ? I suspect that the really fast boys have super sticky tyres? Bullet I thought the principle was the same no matter whether the tyres were super sticky or sports tourers, unless of course you are refering to how the tyre performs before turn in, in which case then I agree the super sticky efforts will be able to withstand much higher forces during braking and decceleration, but I assume no matter what tyre your on after you have the bike steered you get on the throttle ASAP and achieve the 60-40 as described in the book? Bobby Exactly, it is....! The only difference in quicker riders and going much faster, is they brake for longer and deeper into the turn, and as you only come back to the throttle once you've finished braking, that period of coming back to the throttle is usually a little longer. Make sense? Bullet

I think you may be misinterpretating Keiths words here. When does Keith suggest you should be getting back to 60/40, with the throttle rule? What are you as a rider typically doing before this time? In this time, where is more of the weight? Does being of the throttle move the weight to the front? Does trail braking add more or less weight to this? I also wonder what bike you have, what setup, and what tyres and pressure you're running ? I suspect that the really fast boys have super sticky tyres? Bullet

I have to say, I'd suggest that the reason most racers slow down after a few laps is much more likely to be because they're not fit enough, and they start to phsyically lag behind and can't keep up the effort. From my own personal experience, I can't say as I'm thinking much about the last corner, and just concentrate on the one thats coming up, getting into it, and getting back to gas as quickly as I can to start driving hard down that next straightaway. I don't plan several corners ahead, unless they're part of a sequence of turns that flow together. I do come through a corner and make a note of what I could do better next time, but it's a quick thing, (right, I'll do that differently next time because........). That could be a great example of attention drifting onto unneccesary things, and detracting from whats important, (i.e. the now) and slowing a rider down? What does everyone else think about when they're at 90% or more on a trackday or in a race situation? Bullet

CBR600 FV's and below are the most used over here in the UK, You can also get Thundercats, and Kwak ZX6R's too. They're hardly the worlds most predigious machines, but with a race tune, it's possible to get 110-115bhp at the rear wheel out of them, so they go at least as well as latest 600's do. Bullet I don't think we have any cbr600 fv's here in Canada or those other bikes (except for the zx6r, but I don't know which are steel framed). I already posted a similar thread on another "local forum", but I think more than likely I'll probably end up getting an SV650. I'm just really worried that I won't be able to run in as many categories as I'd like to, to gain more racing experience. If I was you my friend, I'd take the advice of others, see what racing categories you can enter in your local clubs, and buy something thats best suited for your ability and for a little growth. You could take the attitude that you can buy a bike for this next year, and then look to upgrade onto something newer the following year, but thats a decision you'll need to take. Personally, whilst an SV650 is a good bike, you'll soon outgrow it's performance, and the contrast between one of those and even a 600 supersport bike is indeed dramatic. Have a look at the club racing categories, then, maybe go down and speak to people there, see what the general consensus of the series is, how well attended the classes are, etc, etc. You may well find your happy to race a SV for many years, and just learn to ride better? Bullet

So here is a question for you Hubbard....? Have you found that by opening your hips to the turn, it has helped with anything else as a reciprocal benefit...? Bullet

Hey Hubbard, Thats exactly the challenge I have with the Yamaha's we use in the UK. I have to do exactly what you describe. I'm moving myself onto the balls of my feet to get a really good lock into the bike. Sometimes, you just have to make a compromise to get a result, but clearly race rearsets are better, more adjustable, and most importantly for me, much gripper in the footbed area, thats probably the most important thing I've found, wet or dry, you've got reliable grip. Bullet

Pull up a chair fossil, lets sink a few! Bullet

Glad thats worked out well for you my friend, sometimes its the simplest of things that make such a difference! Keep at it, you'll soon not even be thinking about that now! Whats a proper beer...? Well, McEwans, is an old mans drink, drunk by old men, in my opinion. You can't beat a good wife beater, (Stella Artois), or maybe Kronenberg. If I'm really keen, I'm quite keen on White Beer, (again comes from Beligum area), HoeGarden is just amazing stuff, though oddly, you're meant to drink with a lemon in it, oddly.. 3 Pints of that though, and you're anyones, I assure. I have to say, there are some great beers in US as well, from my travels there with work, had some really, really great beers, though many of them are just the wrong colour, way too pale looking. That said, they all taste damn good eh? Take it easy man Bullet

Nah, I'm just here to help out man. Mate, if we ever meet up, you're more than welcome to buy me a guiness, or a proper beer. :-) Bullet

You're welcome, and essentially, you've got the picture now.. Often the reasons we do something aren't immediately obvious. Take it easy, keep us posted. Bullet

Well... there's a question... Do you think the foot position point is of more relevance, or as a consequence of getting locked onto the bike and keeping stable? Is foot position, or being locked on, something you're struggling with? Bullet

Hi Cameltoe, Sorry I missed this.... Flash, top man...! Ok, you can do quick turns at any speed you like over 25mph, and as long as you do them smoothly, and don't jump all over the bike, you will not induce any tank slappers, I assure you. The faster you go, the harder it gets to turn the bike and more the benefit you get from being able to quickly turn the bike. Hope that answered your question, sorry it took sometime.. Bullet

CBR600 FV's and below are the most used over here in the UK, You can also get Thundercats, and Kwak ZX6R's too. They're hardly the worlds most predigious machines, but with a race tune, it's possible to get 110-115bhp at the rear wheel out of them, so they go at least as well as latest 600's do. Bullet

I've finally got around to reading this thread and now I'll tell you why this isn't real in any way shape or form. Firstly, when the bike begins to turn, it of course starts to turn slowly (but it still steers), as it cannot get to it's required lean angle immediately whether that needs to be 41 degrees , 20, or whatever of lean angle. A corner taken on a motorbike, i.e. the line it takes, doesn't look like a nicely drawn radius (with a compass) when you look at the actual path the motor bike takes. Secondly, the line and lean angle thats required differs dependant on the mass of the bike and the rider on the bike. This is one of the reasons little small GP bikes like 125's can have massive corner speed, yet a sports tourer has to go say 40% of that speed, even if they can hold exact same lean angle. So I think in summary his theroy is completely mute! Bullet

That boy Rossi, what a big Joker he is! He can say whatever he likes about this and that, and it doesn't have to be even remotely true in anyway, shape or form. He knows other riders will hear or read about it, and go and try it, exactly because they want what he has, and what he can do. I wouldn't pay much attention to what he openly says in the press about this, less we not forget he's the master of mind play, and he must walk away from some of these interviews thinking to himself, "that'll mess them about for a little while".... Bullet

As Adam said, I don't think there is the uniform answer to the problem here. Yeah, you're going to be nervous, but I always found taking deep breaths on the grid works. Trying to put my attention onto my starting revs, making sure I'm thinking of the flag/lights clutch position etc, seems to help take my fultering nerves away a little. My heart still races terribly, but thats just adrenalin letting me know I'm still alive, and that can't be a bad thing can it...? Bullet

I'd add to what Hubbard has said here. If you just want to trackdays, you'll find something like an SV massively underpowered, they make about 75bhp, even with race kit and gearing changes, you might get to something like 85bhp, which is a massive difference over a 600 at something like 110bhp at the wheel, and a litre bike at something approaching 150bhp at the wheel. If your planning on racing, SV racing is pretty cheap for sure, in the Uk there are many classes for it, minitwins is the category for it over here. Cheap cheerful racing, and everyone is running much the same. As a category it's certainly cheaper than 600's and definitely than 1000's in both running gear, tyres, chains, brakes etc, and also crashes usually as you're just going much slower than them. If you want to learn to race, then I personally think MiniTwins or something like is an excellent way to start. Myself and some friends we're going back to racing steel framed 600's next year as it's just cheaper really, you can get most of the parts you'd ever need of Ebay, and you can buy a complete race bike for 1500 pounds all in. Finally, I wouldn't buy a new bike and convert it, I'd buy a second hand race bike thats already converted and prepped, is a much cheaper way of buying a race bike than starting from scratch and doing it yourself I assure you. Let us know what you do, and how you decide to go my friend. Bullet

So, whats my little confession....? Well I recently ran a trackday on my RSV race bike, and I'd had a great day, had ridden very well, and was fairly hauling ass. The weather conditions had started very dry, then moved to light rain, then very heavy rain, then moved back to dry. It was one of those days you really weren't sure you knew what you were going to get really. I race my bike on Slicks, and of course when the heavy rains had come, I moved onto my race wets. All good, still flying, confidence very high. On the second to last session of the day, it had moved back to being dry again, apart from this one corner on the circuit which holds water longer than anywhere else. Anyway, changed back to slicks, though my front hadn't been on the warmer for more than say 20 mins, so I knew it wasn't at optimal temperature. So I decided that I needed to take it a little easier and build up a little. 3 laps in, and everything is going well, and I come to wet corner, but the different this time was that I made my own space, got some clear track ahead of me, and I was able to do my own thing. Now this corner in question is a a tighening radius turn, with an extremely late apex. Most riders turn in way too early and compromise their exits of the turn. 2stepped, Turned the bike, still on the brakes, making great progress to the apex, when I realise that on the inside of the track, 8 inches from the whitle line on the inside their is a wet patch, and I'm heading right for it on slicks.......! So I get off the brakes, put some gas into her, (it's all starting to a go a bit quick the world by now, spilt second decisions count). and unfortunately the front folded, and I down I went. Bike slid into the gravel, and flipped over. Day over, and a rather nice bill to come too. So, what am I guilty off? Well, two things really. Firstly, and probably most importantly here, I made a bad decision about whether I should use that part of the track withouth knowing it was wet or not. As I'd been following others line the previous laps, or going around the outside of others to get better drive of the turn, I hadn't used the proper line, and therefore wasn't sure it was ok to Apex and get to the lines. That was clearly a bad mistake, and one that could have been avoided. Second mistake, an ongoing problem from many years, is that when I get into a tricky situation, I have a tendency to get a little target fixation, and I really should have stopped looking at the wet patch once I saw it, and tried to make a steering correction away from the wet patch. Still working on that one folks, probably will be for quite sometime to come. Hope that helped start a further flood of conversation about this topic, as I said, much to be learned all the time, regardless of your level. Bullet

I'll tell you in my own post in a moment my friend. We all make mistakes, so it's no dirty little secret, I assure you. With respect to your problem, what is your fear of the edge of the road? what is it you feel is going to happen? What is the consequence of you turning in too close to the centre of the road, does it give you problems on your exits? Bullet

Mobile cones might work, though it could prove to be an expensive way to go? either that, or you could get really friendly with the traffic department, and ask them nicely. I thought it was an interesting observation though, and wondered whether it was really possible to turn in too late on the road, or whether your problem was related to not looking in early enough? Bullet

Oh I know buddie, I know. Is a fairly common misconception though believe it or not. The forum does have a tendancy to be read only, not too many people who come post, so it does take the brave few to ask questions, or share their throughts, and I'm not sure if people are embarassed sometimes to say they don't know something or just voice an opinion? They've no need, though as you've occasionally seen, some of the threads can get a little over heavy and over complicated unneccesarily. We're trying to get more things started, and it seems to be improving all the time for sure. Catch ya soon man, Bullet