Bullet

The reason the bike became bouncy here, is probably because there wasn't enough rebound and compression damping to control the return of the spring up and down as you transitioned across the bike. Certainly having a couple of turns more pre-load would change the height of the front a little, (though not enormously), and would typically make the steering slightly slower, but I think Cobie has covered that off for you? Certainly there is much improvement to be had with a good suspension setup. Was your bike running standard settings for example? Or had you had it been tweaked previously? Bullet

Hi Bobby, Sorry, I'd missed your response to this thread, very sorry. As Cobie said, that really was a very good post, shared your experience very nicely. It was some pretty tricky conditions and you rode well for sure, and you could definitely see the improvement from day 1 to day 2. So congrats on that, and keep working at it good friend. As for spending time to say hi, hey, no problem at all, is always great to see friends of the school, and we're all really glad to have you as a student thats well considered and able to contiunally keep working at improvement and apply the drills. We love students like this, it just makes our job a fantastic experience and everyone walks away happy at the end of a school. Keep at it my friend, it's a long, and fulfilling journey, and whilst we might not quite get you to Rossi status, riding like the coaches for example is definitely attainable in time with lots of understanding of the why and practical application. I've no doubt you'll keep working diligently with both. Keep smiling and posting my friend, as you get understanding and breakthroughs, and share with your friend on here! Bullet

I have to say, hats of to Cobie for starting this thread, it's been incredibly interesting reading for me as a coach, seeing what students/riders feel. I've personally held back my own thoughts on this, (I do have a view clearly), but I thought I'd hold back. I think my view and that of everyone else varies, and I can only think this has to do with levels of experience, whereby at a certain level of riding things like throttle control are absolutely number 1 priority, but when thats become an automatic thing and people are track riders chasing laptimes, perhaps people's focus moves to something else. Keep them coming guys, very interesting stuff, and reference I'm totally in agreement with many of the posts here on priorities, and some of the descriptions are excellent. Bullet

Got to get me some of that there unobtainium Cobie, it looks like it could be a great wheeze! Bullet

I'd been in USA for a few days with work, and I really have no idea what time it is at all, and whether I'm meant to be awake or asleep! Mate, you don't need to fix us, we're awesome at completely throwing any sporting competition away without your help. All you guys need to do is turn up, look a little lively, and we'll fold like a cheap suit, I've no doubt! Fortunately, it's impact on my life is minimial, however there will be plenty of Poms crying about it for the summer! Take care and keep thinking about it, especially where to turn in addition to your visual drills! Bullet

You got it mate... ! Bullet

Thats a great post there HotFoot, you could almost have delivered that seminar Keith style! Bullet

Hi Dbtriple, Thanks for your post, poses a very interesting question for sure, but I think perhaps you're over complicating this unneccesarily? My question to you is this, does the road have a vanishing point the same as the track? Perhaps its not as far as it is on a track, but is there one all the same? What can you also do to maximise the ability to see as much of this as possible? Bullet

Ok, great, we're starting to get closer to some definition of your issue. Ok, the one thing that students (and i'll be honest, I never thought about this way either until about a year back, when I started to push traction issues further), don't realise is that a very large part of the bikes stability comes from the rotational forces of the wheels. The higher the speed, the more stability the bike has (which is also one of the reasons its harder to turn a bike the faster you go), as the gyroscopic forces of the bike get ever hgiher. As you've now started to think about this, you'll know that your going to in most situations starting to stand the bike up on the way out of a turn when you start to accelerate. At this point, what will happen with the bike if you start to reach traction limits is that it will start to slide or usually wobble a little. At this point, all that will happen to the bike is that the revs may rise a little, and the wheel will re-gain traction. As the rotational force of the wheel is still accelerating, it provides massive stability, so essentially the bike will want to stay upright and not just fall over mid turn. There is an important part here Steve if you feel this phenomen, and to be honest, you really have to be trying on a 600 (in the dry) to get to this as long as your accelerating at the right part of the turn when your starting to stand the bike up and your following proper throttle control, is that you mustn't chop the throttle (or you can get highsided). you must keep the throttle at least where it is, (we call this checked throttle), or just keep rolling on. Traction issues from the rear are very, very much controllable, (hence why you can see motogp riders spinning the bikes up out of turns), front end slides are much more difficult to handle and deal with. As long as you don't have huge lean angle coming out of a turn, your applying good throttle control, you'll always be able to deal with any rear end slide comfortably I assure you. Now, clearly, I don't expct you to just take my word for it, when you get to level 4 of the school, you'll be able to ride the slide bike, and you'll see how high traction limits are on modern tyres, and how managable these things are with correct throttle control. Hope this covers it of for you, and with some luck, we'll have some other students chime in at some point and share their experiences of rear traction issues and how they've managed them. Bullet So, you are saying that it is more difficult to turn a bike at speed due to gyroscopic forces. You should bear in mind that many, many people have proven that what you say is simply false. Measured, scientific, and with practical applications. That does not mean you are wrong in what you are feeling, but do you think you could come up with another explanation that would concur with the scientific data (get your google on)? I think there is, but I also don't believe that the science that gyroscopic force in negligable, at best, is necessarily applicable to the real world, i.e. teachable. I believe that you are denying a myriad of motorcycle components, including the rider, that have a significantly large effect and influence on a phenomenon you are blaming on "gyroscopic force." I feel that you have fallen into the trap of voodoo magic, like telling riders to, "put your head over the mirror" to corrrect body position. It may work as a quick fix tool, but in the long run, false science is a tool to correct the truly talented and handicap the rest of us humbled mortals. Rossi can have a chat with his bike before his race and do well. Myself, and most people, get an invitation by men in white coats for a cocktail party in a padded room when we do the same. Hi Thor, Thanks for your post, we like a good bit of informed, lively debate, helps spread the learning and knowledge for all. It's one of the primary aspects required of a coach when they join up that you have to aspire to have continued learning throughout your time, and as we're all pretty aware, there is a lot to riding a motorbike and always things to learn. Whilst this post was about traction, you're right that I breifly noted on difficulty in turning a motorbike, and yes, its based on experience and learning from keith and the school. If you have a copy of TW2, Keith talks in much depth about this in section 3, pages 54 onwards, so you're more than happy to read and question and offer up debate on this matter, certainly if there is information which furthers adds to everyone's learning. perhaps it might be helpful for all if you provide links to your points of contention so that there is no ambiguity in the topic matter? You're very correct about your statement about many factors involved in steering a motorbike, the design of motrocycle, the speed, the geometry of the bike, steering angles, trail, rake, tyre profile, leverage available via the bars, tyre and wheel weight all massvely affect how easy or difficult a bike is to turn, and I'm not in anyway trying to dismiss these factors at all, nor would I suggest that a riders ability to effectively steer should be underestimated also, however I do believe the principles and phsyics involved are well understand and have been demonstrated over many, many years. We don't believe in voodoo magic at CSS, if there were such a thing as Pixie dust, I think we'd have marketed that a long time back, and keith would be a very, very rich man! Bullet Yes, I was trying to frame the discussion in a way that would not devolve into a physics debate - Tony Foales can take us down that path and prove that we do not have the physics and math backgrounds to follow no matter how generous he is in taking that into consideration. That was a big mistake on my part. And I made a big mistake in using the terminology "voodoo magic". I don't use that term as a pejorative term. It is the shortcuts that I use to help me and my students move towards a way to effect the actions they want to happen. But the students have to develop their own "voodoo magic". What false idols and twisted logic I use to get myself to affect a proper action is not a reasonable way to explain it to students. It may not, most likely, make any sense to them. I felt that you were being lazy in communicating your point and wanted you to think about it from a teachable perspective. How can we transfer the most knowledge and understanding with the least amount of stress and confusion? I can turn on a dime when I am wrong, but I'll never stop throwing handfuls of quarters when I believe I am on the right path. Hi Thor, No apology neccesary, I totally understood where you're coming from. I think its not neccesary to have maths/physics technical understanding of the what and the why here, just the the concept of what works and why. Additionally to complement that, we need to have the practical experience of how it works and when it works as this cements the learning and makes it complete for students. I think you summarised it well even you perhaps didn't think so, many people don't properly understand why things happen, and what consequence they have, and many students do want "just fix me" approach to riding, which of course, they don't get as their application of what we provide in seminars with keith/Andy etc, and what we coach on track is only part of the equation, and there needs to be practical application on the students part to embrace the learning which can be a barrier that needs working at. Students do need to develop their own persepective and understanding unquestionably. I'm unaware of where there is some misunderstanding, or false logic in this thread. The student was initally concerned about traction coming off turns, and so I asked to him think about how that actually occurs, and what really happens. Additionally to that, I also shared my own practical knowledge of having experience sliding a motorbike a considerable amount of times (it rains here a lot in England, what can i say. ), but additionally to that, I also said to Steve that he can experience this sensation and feeling himself on the lean bike which is a controlled environment to experience rear traction issues and how to deal with them. (i.e. he can develop his own knowledge on the matter). I'm not sure if we're at cross purposes in this thread now, this thread was initally about traction and feel for traction, and I fear we may have speared off into steering issues, and additionally now, coaching methods. If this is the case, I'd suggest that if this is the case, we open up individual threads for each of the topics so it's easier for people to find in the future. Bullet

Now that you've been to the class, was there anything in particular you learned that addressed the original question about how to find or sense the traction limits? Steve, Bobby has been with us this week, undertaking levels 2 and 3 and the weather conditions were most questionable at times and the track we used (rockingham), is slippery as ice in certain turns so no doubt he'll have comments to make on sliding a little after that. Bobby? Bullet

Hi Bull, Yeah thats exactly it, though it has many uses, often in racing for getting into a turn early to avoid an overtake amongst others. Keith covers in TW2 on pages 75 and 76, Bullet

Ok, great, we're starting to get closer to some definition of your issue. Ok, the one thing that students (and i'll be honest, I never thought about this way either until about a year back, when I started to push traction issues further), don't realise is that a very large part of the bikes stability comes from the rotational forces of the wheels. The higher the speed, the more stability the bike has (which is also one of the reasons its harder to turn a bike the faster you go), as the gyroscopic forces of the bike get ever hgiher. As you've now started to think about this, you'll know that your going to in most situations starting to stand the bike up on the way out of a turn when you start to accelerate. At this point, what will happen with the bike if you start to reach traction limits is that it will start to slide or usually wobble a little. At this point, all that will happen to the bike is that the revs may rise a little, and the wheel will re-gain traction. As the rotational force of the wheel is still accelerating, it provides massive stability, so essentially the bike will want to stay upright and not just fall over mid turn. There is an important part here Steve if you feel this phenomen, and to be honest, you really have to be trying on a 600 (in the dry) to get to this as long as your accelerating at the right part of the turn when your starting to stand the bike up and your following proper throttle control, is that you mustn't chop the throttle (or you can get highsided). you must keep the throttle at least where it is, (we call this checked throttle), or just keep rolling on. Traction issues from the rear are very, very much controllable, (hence why you can see motogp riders spinning the bikes up out of turns), front end slides are much more difficult to handle and deal with. As long as you don't have huge lean angle coming out of a turn, your applying good throttle control, you'll always be able to deal with any rear end slide comfortably I assure you. Now, clearly, I don't expct you to just take my word for it, when you get to level 4 of the school, you'll be able to ride the slide bike, and you'll see how high traction limits are on modern tyres, and how managable these things are with correct throttle control. Hope this covers it of for you, and with some luck, we'll have some other students chime in at some point and share their experiences of rear traction issues and how they've managed them. Bullet So, you are saying that it is more difficult to turn a bike at speed due to gyroscopic forces. You should bear in mind that many, many people have proven that what you say is simply false. Measured, scientific, and with practical applications. That does not mean you are wrong in what you are feeling, but do you think you could come up with another explanation that would concur with the scientific data (get your google on)? I think there is, but I also don't believe that the science that gyroscopic force in negligable, at best, is necessarily applicable to the real world, i.e. teachable. I believe that you are denying a myriad of motorcycle components, including the rider, that have a significantly large effect and influence on a phenomenon you are blaming on "gyroscopic force." I feel that you have fallen into the trap of voodoo magic, like telling riders to, "put your head over the mirror" to corrrect body position. It may work as a quick fix tool, but in the long run, false science is a tool to correct the truly talented and handicap the rest of us humbled mortals. Rossi can have a chat with his bike before his race and do well. Myself, and most people, get an invitation by men in white coats for a cocktail party in a padded room when we do the same. Hi Thor, Thanks for your post, we like a good bit of informed, lively debate, helps spread the learning and knowledge for all. It's one of the primary aspects required of a coach when they join up that you have to aspire to have continued learning throughout your time, and as we're all pretty aware, there is a lot to riding a motorbike and always things to learn. Whilst this post was about traction, you're right that I breifly noted on difficulty in turning a motorbike, and yes, its based on experience and learning from keith and the school. If you have a copy of TW2, Keith talks in much depth about this in section 3, pages 54 onwards, so you're more than happy to read and question and offer up debate on this matter, certainly if there is information which furthers adds to everyone's learning. perhaps it might be helpful for all if you provide links to your points of contention so that there is no ambiguity in the topic matter? You're very correct about your statement about many factors involved in steering a motorbike, the design of motrocycle, the speed, the geometry of the bike, steering angles, trail, rake, tyre profile, leverage available via the bars, tyre and wheel weight all massvely affect how easy or difficult a bike is to turn, and I'm not in anyway trying to dismiss these factors at all, nor would I suggest that a riders ability to effectively steer should be underestimated also, however I do believe the principles and phsyics involved are well understand and have been demonstrated over many, many years. We don't believe in voodoo magic at CSS, if there were such a thing as Pixie dust, I think we'd have marketed that a long time back, and keith would be a very, very rich man! Bullet

See you there Acebobby. Here is hoping its a little cooler than it has been the last couple of days at Silverstone. Bullet Its a funny old thing the weather, we moan when its cold and wet (which is most of the time) then we get a heatwave hitting the UK and we want it a bit cooler lol, I will be happy if its dry, but then again if its wet I'l still have a blast! Well we did indeed have a bit of everything eh Bobby? Rain, thunder, lightining, torrential downpours..... Rivers of water across the track.. Even has some sunshine too! Definitely helped experiment with feel for traction, learned a few new things along the way too! Hope you got back safe and sound mate, and we'll see you soon no doubt! Bullet

If actually look at the clip slowly and repeatedly, you'll see Spies does whats called a set up steer, as in he starts steer in, but doesn't actually quick turn the bike till the white line. He's essentially changed his angle of attack into the turn, so he doesn't have turn the bike as far by the time he needs to turn it all the way. (you'll do attack angles at the end of level 3), but you can clearly see he quick turns it around the white line we mentioned earlier. You can also see he's hard on the brakes too! That lad can ride though for sure though! Bullet

I've had a look at the picture again, and i'd actually go for something around the white line would be about right I'd say... I couldn't really tell you in all honesty till I rode it an saw it again, and it's been a while. Bullet

Mike, The other thing you probably need to consider Mike is that a WSB is considerably faster than any road bike, regardless of what you have or ride, they're all in excess of 200bhp at the rear wheel, and will be doing at least 20-30 mph more than say me on my RSV factory at the end of that straight, despite that I can do sub 1:45 laps on it there, so they'll need to initiate the turn much earlier for sure. As long as you're happy with your line, you can get to your ideal line which as we all know is about getting to that throttle and keeping to the rule, you shouldn't neccesarily worry about it. Bullet

Hi Mike, This isn't school related, but personal experience related per say having ridden here a lot in the past on track days. I've also crashed in that turn on the brakes trail braking. It definitely depends on entry speed, ability to turn, and suspension etc, etc, but I'll tell you where I'd turn in on a well set up bike on slicks. I would turn in after the white line, probably parallel with the W at the bottom of the picture if that helps. Many riders turn in very early at Donnington and its corner that sharpens as you go through and so if you want good early drive, you need to turn in later rather than early. Hope that helps for what you're looking for. Bullet

Now that looks like something a little different that might help? Bullet I am not sure it is different or just have not described my understanding well or just try to make the TC easier for myself. Kieth indicates that there is a particular throttle opening during the lean transition that make the bike feels stable, if say the idling is adjusted to that ideal throttle opening and we can quick turn for the entry speed, is it still need to START apply throttle during lean? or during that fraction of second to compensate for the continuous change of tire contact radii with road? For most of us, the rate of lean is not fast enough to catch up with our applying throttle (if we start applying too much or early) and hence easy to run wide. Will Keith's following drill line 3 an 4, and the target for one lean angle to get 3 can confirm that maintanence throttle happens after full lean? If the idling is not set to that ideal throttle opening, does it mean before reaching full single lean angle, any crack open should not be more than that ideal opening, then after full lean within next fraction of second, we can continue the smooth roll-on? "Quote: " Here is a drill to improve your ability to predict your line. 1. Find yourself a curvy road. A familiar one is best. A calm track day would also be perfect. 2. Back off your speed enough so you are certain you won?t run wide. Set your speed that way for each turn you enter. 3. Get the bike fully turned into the corner so you are happy with where it is pointed. 4. Begin your roll-on as soon as possible after #3 is settled. 5. Estimate where exactly you think the bike is going to be at its widest point on the turn?s exit. Don?t choose blind turns to do it. You are trying to predict at what point ahead you will come the. closest to the center line (in right hand corners on the road) or the road?s edge (in left hand corners on the road). Your final and widest exit point. 6. Maintain a fluid, seamless and continuous roll-on throughout the corner. 7. Do not adjust the steering or lean angle of the bike (unless you really have to). 8. Evaluate your estimate from #5. How did you do? How close were you to the point you thought was going to be your exit? 9. Experiment with slower and/or more aggressive roll-ons until you get the feel for what it takes for that bike to hold a predictable line." Quote". It will help me to see the whole process better if there is furth I think the answer is reasonably clear from Keith, in points 3 and 4 here. You couldn't really predict the ideal throttle for each corner, and hence you could never get the idle on the throttle to match that all the time, and hence, the only way to get the bike stable it to follow points 3 and 4... The end! Bullet

Now that looks like something a little different that might help? Bullet

There is something else we could do.....! Just trying to get someone to think about it. Wonder what it could be..? Might find some hints in Keiths article here.... http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=540 and here..... http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=526 Bullet

I'm afraid I don't know the circuit or the corner as I'm obviously UK based, but perhaps Cobie or one of the other guys around can provide more input thats beneficial. I'll talk about some tech though, and I'll research it a little more for you when I have the bible to hand, but I don't at the moment. Even though the bike will be going downhill, the bike will still be scrubbing speed because of the friction on the front tyre and with it being leaned into the turn. In situations like these, if the corner is very long in duration, rolling on the throttle very early can indeed get you to this problem unless you can achieve this roll on with very gentle throttle application. If you try and roll on too much too soon, you'll definitely run wide in very lng turns and Keith definitely covers this in TWII. Do you think you could acheive such roll on technique or do you think there is something else we could do to stablise the bike for the earlier part of the turn? Bullet

It's also important to note that at the time, suspension, tyre and bike technology wasn't anywhere near what it is now, the limitations of what could be done are very different from todays bikes, and lets not also forget they're also riding big angry 500 cc two strokes with horridly tricky power bands. Can't say as I'd want to have one of them leaned over and come back to gas either. Bullet

Hi Bull, Thanks very much for your post. Very glad you enjoyed Keiths book, though it can be a little tough going in times, it's also can't put down reading as well in places too. It's really the bible of what we teach at the school and the technology and techniques that Keith talks about in the book are just as applicable on a Harley as much as any sportbike. Clearly there are limitations on lean angle with the footboards, and you're unlikely to be leaning off much, but certainly countersteering, all those technologies certainly are just as applicable on that bike as any other. Bullet

See you there Acebobby. Here is hoping its a little cooler than it has been the last couple of days at Silverstone. Bullet

Ok, great, we're starting to get closer to some definition of your issue. Ok, the one thing that students (and i'll be honest, I never thought about this way either until about a year back, when I started to push traction issues further), don't realise is that a very large part of the bikes stability comes from the rotational forces of the wheels. The higher the speed, the more stability the bike has (which is also one of the reasons its harder to turn a bike the faster you go), as the gyroscopic forces of the bike get ever hgiher. As you've now started to think about this, you'll know that your going to in most situations starting to stand the bike up on the way out of a turn when you start to accelerate. At this point, what will happen with the bike if you start to reach traction limits is that it will start to slide or usually wobble a little. At this point, all that will happen to the bike is that the revs may rise a little, and the wheel will re-gain traction. As the rotational force of the wheel is still accelerating, it provides massive stability, so essentially the bike will want to stay upright and not just fall over mid turn. There is an important part here Steve if you feel this phenomen, and to be honest, you really have to be trying on a 600 (in the dry) to get to this as long as your accelerating at the right part of the turn when your starting to stand the bike up and your following proper throttle control, is that you mustn't chop the throttle (or you can get highsided). you must keep the throttle at least where it is, (we call this checked throttle), or just keep rolling on. Traction issues from the rear are very, very much controllable, (hence why you can see motogp riders spinning the bikes up out of turns), front end slides are much more difficult to handle and deal with. As long as you don't have huge lean angle coming out of a turn, your applying good throttle control, you'll always be able to deal with any rear end slide comfortably I assure you. Now, clearly, I don't expct you to just take my word for it, when you get to level 4 of the school, you'll be able to ride the slide bike, and you'll see how high traction limits are on modern tyres, and how managable these things are with correct throttle control. Hope this covers it of for you, and with some luck, we'll have some other students chime in at some point and share their experiences of rear traction issues and how they've managed them. Bullet