Bullet

Steve, Interesting points. Your the second person to say "knowing what speed I should going at what point" and i'm trying to discover how people set this? Claude also noted this earlier, and am trying to gauge what defines this for you? With respect you to your question on traction limits, we can assist you with understanding that, but how about you start another seperate thread and we can try and help you with that a little. Could also let us know which levels you've done too? Bullet OK! Here's a new thread, although I'm sure there have been many in the past. First, I've done the level 1 school in August 2007. I want to get to level 2 this year because I know that would help a lot but I'm not sure if will work out with my schedule. I did 3 track days last year and two so far this year. As for a speed at some point, I can't say for sure how consistent I am each lap around the track, but I feel like I'm doing the exact same lines at the same speeds lap after lap. For reference points I pick imaginary spots on the track- there isn't necessarily some mark, but I just sort of triangulate my position in space based on the shape of the curve and all the things around, using my peripheral vision as a whole. It would be interesting to have a GPS system on my bike and then look at the data later to see how well my perceptions and reality match. As for traction limits, I've not really had any bad moments with slipping or wiggling which makes me think that I'm not so close to the edge (CBR6000F4i w/Dunlop Qualifiers), but I have scraped footrest feeler pegs a few times so I know the bike is leaned over as far as it should go before bad things happen. The 3 times that has happened my knee didn't touch, so that makes me think my body position isn't quite right. But I hear racers on TV talking about working on their setup, "pushing the front end", etc. and I have no idea what that really means from any of my own experience; I can't relate. I realize they're a whole lot more experienced of course and I'm not trying to be them, but I want to learn to "listen" to the bike and I'm not hearing much. Hi Steve, Thanks for starting another thread, it just makes it easier for people to find at a later date through the search functions. Level 1, great start, gives you the fundamental aspects that you need to get started. The 2 Step Turn drill you've learned is a really important drill and one that we build on a great deal on level 2 that will help you more with your perception of speed. Much about going quick becomes about feel (more of which in a moment), and your ability to give yourself enough space and time and be able to give your brain enough free attention. Some of the things you're talking about are covered in more depth in level 2, and so you'll understand the theory in more depth and the correct timing and application of the drills, as its essentially a combination of both. Having personally had your bike, (it's a very friendly, fun bike that fab for learning on, almost cossets you), the hero blobs on the standard pegs are there to protect the (reasonably large) end can, so you'll always get them to touch down before anything primary touches down. If youv'e changed the standard can for an aftermarket, you'll find you can easily remove them and get plenty more lean angle with no fears whatsoever. Knee down is all about body positon and again is something you can have worked on the lean bike on level 2. Now on to traction. Normally traction is of concern on the rear wheel, and people usually refer concern about traction when exiting turns, when applying throttle. The same does apply in much the same respect on thr front on the way into the turn. I have a couple of questions for you, see if we can get some more clarity about your thoughts and fears? OK traction! What are your primary concerns of traction? Are you concerned about it into a turn? Middle of a turn? Exiting a turn? What signs do you think you'll get from the bike first before traction and potentially the thing you fear the most (i.e. a crash), happens? If you could provide me your thoughts on these points, we'll see what we can help with. Bullet

Thats a really excellent post from Kevin, and I'd just like to echo some of his thoughts and how things are run in the US with what goes on here in the UK also. As you rightly said Kevin, all of the crew are excellent, regardless of who you have, you won't get anyone thats not able to move you forward in some way or other. When the crew pairings are done here in the UK, the level of riding experience that you have, say the amount of trackdays you do, whether you race and so on, are mapped up to the coach that you're like to get. This way, we ensure that you're likely to get the best experience you can from your days with us. When students do multiple days, we rotate the student with different coaches, the reason is that as Kevin rightly pointed out, different coaches spot different things, and we all have different strengths and things that when we combine them together, we can really add a lot to your days, and you get several different perspectives and also slightly variations in approach, personality, styles etc that we all bring to the party as well. Bullet

Hi Trixie, The physical controls of the bike are the same certainly, brakes, gears etc are all exactly in the same place and so that would definitely assist with the process of learning to ride. The styles of riding are very different in many respects, for example on a dirt bike you're mainly stood up on the pegs to move your weight around the bike, were on a road bike your sat on the seat. Dirt bikes have knobbly tires that dig into the surface and and you can throw the bike around underneath you getting traction, road bikes we attempt to keep them as upright as we can. The big benefits of learning to ride a dirt bike is you can learn a great deal about traction, sliding a bike and throttle control, that would translate over onto high speed bike riding in the future for sure, and of course, it would be tremendous fun to ride one around with your friends, getting dirty and having an opportunity to ride of course. So, I guess whilst they're different in many respects, there are things that you would learn that would carry over for when your ready to ride on the road, and you'd have a bloody good laugh at moderate speeds. Hope that helps. Bullet

Steve, Interesting points. Your the second person to say "knowing what speed I should going at what point" and i'm trying to discover how people set this? Claude also noted this earlier, and am trying to gauge what defines this for you? With respect you to your question on traction limits, we can assist you with understanding that, but how about you start another seperate thread and we can try and help you with that a little. Could also let us know which levels you've done too? Bullet

Hi Trixie, Welcome to the forum, where you will no doubt find lots of great people, lots of amazing information, and with luck you'll improve your riding along the way. where are you from, what you ride, how long you been riding? Bullet

Hi claude, Thanks for joining us and sharing your thoughts. Everyone is welcome in these threads, and peoples thoughts and opinions are very welcome as it helps others as their are bound to be others in the same place as you. How do you know when you've set corner speed correctly? and what enables you to get it right time and time again? Bullet

You're very welcome mate. Keep working at it, takes time, but it's a journey! Bullet

Good luck with it mate, make sure you keep it shiny side up though eh? Let us know how you get on with experimenting with tyre pressures. Bullet

He doesn't ride the CSS way, certainly ain't got the body position from us anyway. I'm thinking maybe Toseland actually. Bullet Toseland took the school as a teenager at Cadwell. OK, here's a hint: mid-90's won his 2nd world title. CF Like has been posted, Fogarty, not in a million years way too arrogant for help. Must be Doug Polen then, I know he's done loads with Keith. Bullet

Hi Taras, Welcome to the site my friend, your part of the family and we like students to share their knoweldge and learnings and experience with other students. You'll find there are lots of great contributors on the site with some excellent experience all happy to partake in helping everyone out. we're all joined by a common love of motorbikes, improving our skills and sharing keith et al's fantastic work on making the complexity of riding a bike into smaller manageable chunks that mere mortals can understand. Keep posting and sharing your thoughts, I'm sure you'll be engaged and you might even pick a few things up now and again along the way. Bullet

Behold, the Bacon buttie awaits... http://homepage.mac.com/theconfuzed1/.Pict...on_sandwich.jpg We start every school day with one. B

Is it only speed that gets your SR's going? If not only that, what other things, and can you control them all? Bullet

That does seem very high. In the UK we're running GP Racers at something like 27F and 25R cold (which does seem very low, but they come up so high. I personally run Pirelli slicks on my own bike, and I run 27F and 26.5R, and they're like glue. You'd have to think that 31 on a new tyre like that must be high. Have you tested the pressure when you come off a hot session? I'd think it should be about 35 when off the track, not of warmers? Bullet

Yeah thats what its really used for, though it does look cool. I have to confess I'm not a massive knee dragger, and I can make a set of knee sliders last me years. I lean the bike over, get my gauge, and then pull my knee in mostly. On the road, I'd completely forget about it, in fact, I'd completely forget about till you get your body position sorted, as without good body position, (i.e. riding very twisted), you need a lot of lean angle. I'd think of it as something that either will, or won't happen, it won't make you faster in anyway shape or form and it can be a big distraction. The answer to your why do I go fast question as we all know is because its great fun, it's challenging and it makes you feel very alive. Bullet.

Hi mate, No your not wrong about that, your brain isn't fried at all. You read it right, and you do exactly as you defined it. Once you've started to turn the bike, there is a period when your off the throttle, and the weight is a little more onto the front for sure. It's not as bad trail braking, and the severity of the turn, camber and things can influence exactly how much weight you have on the front for sure. So the big question is, when do you come back onto the throttle..? Well, if you read pages 24 and 25 of TW2, it will be revealed to you. Bullet

He doesn't ride the CSS way, certainly ain't got the body position from us anyway. I'm thinking maybe Toseland actually. Bullet

I reckon thats about as close to textbook on the definition on the "why". Excellent post there Hubbard. Bullet

I believe the reason for the 40 front, 60 rear is to achieve the best contact patch for both tyres and that it would be done by opening the throttle! It's once you have initially cracked open the throttle, the book states that once the throttle is cracked on, it is rolled on evenly, smoothly, and constantly throughout the remainder of the turn! So while cracking open the throttle sets the tyres contact patches how do you know how hard or not you can roll on the throttle? And while rolling on throughout the turn are you not moving more weight to the rear effectively unloading the front? Hey bobby, If you look at TW2 page 7, section on "light touch", it describes the definition of how much and what happens if you put on too much too soon. Have a read, see if that covers it of for you mate. Bullet

Did you find what I meant, and it made sense? If there is any consolation for you my friend, we've all got lots to learn. Being a coach is just a step on the journey of learning. We're constantly adding more to the info bank, and you just keep working at it. I've read twist at least 12 times, and I still learn things. I think if you probably asked Keith, Cobie et al, they'd tell you they're still picking up things as they go as well, and they've been riding for a long old time. ( ). Bullet

Actually, now with you lot going on about how great the weather is in US, and now in SA, I'm going to change my mind and declare I love UK weather! It's the best! If for no other reason that with it being wet on occasion I get to experiment with my feel for traction, and spinning up the rear wheel coming of a corner on a standard 600 is pretty cool, and you can't do that in your tropical sunshine can ya? eh? No! thats right you can't. Not so smug now eh? Me, I'll stick with the highs and lows of british weather ta! Bullet

The usual answer is that usually that the riders body position isn't quite right. Most riders that first learn to hang off in an attempt to knee down have a tendency to a) lean off the bike to far or they rotate around the tank. When you do the latter, it actually turns your knee downwards and into the bike rather down at the floor. I'd put reasonable money on the former being the cause myself, though without seeing, its hard to really tell. Bullet Honestly it just felt more comfortable for me to hang off 'tighter" to the bike in that turn because of its speed. I am not sure if that is the proper technique or not though, it just felt best for me in that particular turn to keep everything tucked in. do you normally knee down, but didn't here? I'd buy that by the way, not everyone does, or needs to. The more important to knee down is really what it's used for, apart from looking absolutely fab in those pictures on your desktop or Wall to impress all your non biking mates about how cool you are! Bullet I had my knee down consistently all throughout the day, just never in that turn. Was actually quite proud of myself, got to where i was using it as a gauge in the turns and would expect it to touch down at the same spot each lap. (it was my 1st track day ) Rightly so, rights of passage that is my friend. Welcome to the knee down hall of fame! It never gets too tired to be honest!

The usual answer is that usually that the riders body position isn't quite right. Most riders that first learn to hang off in an attempt to knee down have a tendency to a) lean off the bike to far or they rotate around the tank. When you do the latter, it actually turns your knee downwards and into the bike rather down at the floor. I'd put reasonable money on the former being the cause myself, though without seeing, its hard to really tell. Bullet Honestly it just felt more comfortable for me to hang off 'tighter" to the bike in that turn because of its speed. I am not sure if that is the proper technique or not though, it just felt best for me in that particular turn to keep everything tucked in. do you normally knee down, but didn't here? I'd buy that by the way, not everyone does, or needs to. The more important to knee down is really what it's used for, apart from looking absolutely fab in those pictures on your desktop or Wall to impress all your non biking mates about how cool you are! Bullet

Hi firebeast, If you look at Twist of the Wrist 2, page 29, diagrams 1 and 2, it explains this, and shows some diagrams. should help understand the point your asking about. With respect to the MotoGP boys, as we've discussed, they're trail braking, so although they're off the throttle, they're on the brakes in many cases right upto the Apex, and then they're back to the throttle, following the same old rule we are. The slght difference they do have though is they have complex electronics to lean on, so application may be a little more abrupt than say you or I on our street bikes might be able to get away with. Bullet

The usual answer is that usually that the riders body position isn't quite right. Most riders that first learn to hang off in an attempt to knee down have a tendency to a) lean off the bike to far or they rotate around the tank. When you do the latter, it actually turns your knee downwards and into the bike rather down at the floor. I'd put reasonable money on the former being the cause myself, though without seeing, its hard to really tell. Bullet

Wow, Kevin! I don't know what to say, other than I'm really glad you're OK, and thanks so much for posting this! Andy's right, it is an amazing feeling to know that this made such a difference for you. Do you suppose this is how the coaches feel, every day? Glad your ok Kevin man, and it definitely brings home the point about giving yourself enough time and space to react on the road for sure. As for how we feel everyday we do a school (remmeber most of us, (I can only speak for the UK), have day jobs, so we do this coz we love it really). You do get those really excellent days when you can see the improvement in your students, they're absolutely overwhelmed about their improvement and their really happy and have big smiles. Those days make it very special for sure. We do get some tough ones too though! Isn't all glam, rock and roll and bacon butties I can assure ya! Keep smiling guys. Bullet