Crash106

Just curious--In terms of lap times, do racers go faster on a 600 or 1,000? I feel better on a less jittery bike and think that would probably be the 1,000. But those darned 650 Sportbikes are flying too! I couldn't find AMA lap/track records. Does anybody know?

Eirik, About your video--you have a good eye and a wonderful training tool (and memory maker) with that camera. I want one. Like you, I notice a lot of good old fashioned steering in my riding too. For example--I inch down my steep gravel driveway, get on the asphalt and steer hard left. When I look at my bars, I am By Golly steering left and the bar is turned a LOT. But what I've also noticed is that this is when I'm Already leaned over. I tend to look at my bars mid-turn, once I've done my turn-in and feel like I have enough spare attention to glance down at my handlebars. At that time, I see steering and not counter steering. However, when I'm turning in, most of my visual attention is on my turning point, the apex or the exit (not my handlebars). I FEEL the counter steering and it is very quick and subtle. Look at your video again and notice if you can see a quick little jerk in the opposite direction, just before, or right as, the bike starts to lean over. It looks almost like you hit a bump and the handlebars turned a bit, except that while you're counter steering, the bike leans over. You can really see it on the "Twist II" video because of the giant cardboard arrow, but even there, it is very quick and only happens Right at the Beginning of the Turn. You only need to get the bike kicked over a bit, then gravity starts to take over and do your job for you.

Personally, and my needs are a bit out of the ordinary, the tings that are important to me are the shift assist, anti-lock brakes and traction control. I have no problems with a big bike, but do have strength and endurance issues and fatigue quickly. Knowing this makes the electronic assistance much more important to me than engine displacement. I don't want to have to worry about the bike, and will take all the help I can get.

Wonderful, complex and exciting conversation. Thanks to all this input, I'm happy to believe that miles per hour = radius. Of course we all try this experiment every time we apply Throttle Control Rule #1.

Talan, Well done! Glad to hear you are making it happen. You've probably already seen these, but here are some links that might be of special interest to you. The first one if for LegUp Landing Gear. These are electric wheels generally used on big cruisers and touring bikes for people who have lost use of their legs. They might not have enough clearance for hard racing, but could help you get back on a street bike. There are a couple of links to some neck braces--no sense risking what movement you have left! And I put in a couple of other resources, although, it sounds like you are already all over this. http://www.landingear.com/home.php http://www.leatt-brace.com/ http://www.alpinestars.com/store/productdetails.aspx?productid=650009&cs=1 http://www.disabledriders.com/ http://www.ama-cycle.org/roadride/disbresourcelistings.asp You were smart to get CSS training. Congrats and good luck.

Hansi, It looks like you had a GREAT time! Man, those "X" marks come up fast!

Hello Folks, I was reading a car racing book, and they said that when a RACE CAR reaches it's cornering traction limit, it will start to slide then gradually and predictably take a wider line. Their example was going 50 mph on a 100 foot circle at the limits of traction. If you ease the speed up to 51 or 52 mph, then the car will gradually start sliding into a 101-102 foot circle. So, if I take out the Lean Bike (or maybe it would be the Slide Bike) and start zooming around the same 100 foot circle--well, what do you think (or know) would happen when I reached the bike's limits of traction? Would "it" happen gradually (like when a race car starts to slip) or would it happen all at once (like a nasty high side)? And, of course, if I were to loose traction, what should I do about it? (I guess I've been watching too many High Side crash videos on YouTube.com, but to my untrained eyes, it looks like most of these high sides were caused by adding too much gas too QUICKLY--probably an over simplification. Maybe I'm trying to make a case for better throttle control.) Anyway, thanks for playing.

Hello DeadSmiley, Wonderful video Kelly. That was very nice of you to take your GF out on the track with you, and to take it nice and easy with her. I can tell you were taking it easy because you just eased around the track, didn't throw the bike around, didn't accelerate hard and certainly didn't slam those brakes on. You just rode nice and smooth. That smooth riding gives passengers a lot of confidence. In terms of riding faster on your track days, I have to ask, were you trying to ride fast? Because it seemed like you were trying to ride smoothly, easing the gas on, then rolling it off, then leaving the gas off till you were completely upright on the straight. I'm no expert, just an interested rider, but I believe most racing instructors would say that to go faster, you want to prioritize your effort and work on riding a good LINE first, then work on corner exit speed (and a nice smooth roll-on that starts right after you get the bike turned), then think about braking harder. (CSS instructors, please jump in if I'm off base with this.) Riding the right line lets you ride faster with less lean angle, more vision, more comfort and less drama. In the video, your turn-ins where not always wide, on some corners you didn't really get down to the apex, then you kind of floated out onto the straight. It's easier at CSS because they give you those nice big "X" marks on the track, but if you think of it as riding outside-inside-outside, that may help. When I'm tentative on the bike, it's usually because I'm not looking far enough down the road. Because I'm looking so low, I can't find the outside of the turn soon enough to do anything about it. I'll zoom in, realize I'm off the line, slow down a lot and loose track of my apex because I'm braking instead of turning or looking where I'm going--then I get tense and everything gets worse. When I get like that, I try to relax and look as far down the road as I can see. That helps me see the turn points sooner and allows me to relax a bit. Anyway, I really enjoyed the video.

Yeah, I LOVE that video! One thing I noticed in the heretical YouTube.com video was that the guy leaning his way down the mountain road was riding on a road with a fair amount of banking. I believe the banking "tricks" the bike into turning with much less movement of the front wheel. I don't have the technical vocabulary to explain this, but I believe the bike "thinks" it's going straight, even though it is banking into a curve. Does that make sense?

Hello Leather Wearing Racers, I'm wondering about buying a neck "brace" before I come to CCS, but would love to find something that is comfortable enough to wear on the street. I have a long, sad history of neck injuries starting at age 12. Now that I'm 50, the pain from all these old injuries is starting to grate on me, and my doctors are talking about fusion or plates in the neck. Have any of you used a Leatt neck braces, or maybe even a neck roll? I tried a couple at the store and the "Adventure" brace felt pretty good just standing around. The least expensive brace ($175) felt very restrictive, but I'm not sure if it is adjustable and maybe just needed to be fit to my neck and shoulders. They also make much cheaper football type neck rolls that might do some good and are WAY less expensive. Any feedback would be useful. http://www.leatt-brace.com/ http://www.dickssportinggoods.com/family/index.jsp?categoryId=2360749 Best wishes, Crash106

Crosby, I think you are on to something. If you are leaned over and have some throttle on to stabilize the bike, but still feel you are going too fast, you could roll off the throttle, use the front brake or use the rear brake. Rolling completely off the throttle can be abrupt on many bikes--mine included--although, you could trying rolling off as gently as possible. The problem is that at low throttle openings many fuel injected bike are On or Off. I wouldn't normally want to use the front brake IN a corner (I've seen too many experts tuck the front tire and fall down, and I'm nowhere near their level). So, that leaves rear brake and--at the same time--maintenance throttle. You wouldn't need to do it often, or use much rear brake but a gentle toe touch on purpose is much better than lighting up an SR and chopping the throttle, manhandling the bars or freezing up. Even when I'm braking hard, I still squeeze on a little rear brake first before really working the front brake. I've found using the rear brake just before the front brake acts like a sort of manual anti-dive control and helps stabilize the bike. I also use the rear brake to give the bike "something to pull against" at parking lot speeds or when pulling out (creeping forward) and turning into heavy traffic. I use the rear brake a LOT in gravel because the front locks up so fast. I use my rear brake for normal stopping chores. You can also abuse the rear brake on purpose and have a bit of fun sliding around. So, I guess I use the rear brake to: Finesse corner speed Reduce front end dive Stabilize the bike at very low speeds Stop in gravel, sand or dirt Stop under normal conditions Slide on purpose I know lots of people hate the rear brake, but I use it a lot. Best wishes, Crash106

For U-turns in parking lots, I push the bike aggressively down under me and look at a "pivot point" on the pavement that I rotate around. The "look down, fall down" rule doesn't seem to apply when I'm giving my mind a visual reference point to pivot around. If I feel I'm falling in, I give it more gas. Out on the street, you certainly CAN look down and push the bike down and it will work okay as long as you aren't going very fast. I've followed people riding that way, and tried it myself. It feels like I'm keeping myself upright from the waist up while the bike does its thing underneath me. While it's fun for a change, I think it's probably a bad habit for someone who sometimes rides much faster. When I want to swoop through a series of quick turns, I feel much better looking up, leaning in and counter steering firmly. My eyes see where I want to go and counter steering makes the bike turn very quickly.

Dear KHP, Yes. Seeing for myself that others can take a BMW S1000RR and lean it WAY over would probably really help me to relax. That is a huge part of why I want to get to CSS and not just read the books or watch the videos. I see racers leaned over far enough to scuff their elbow pads on TV, but that does not do much to make me believe I can do the same thing. Being there, following someone else on the same bike with the same tires and seeing them survive with my own eyes, now, THAT's hard to ignore. Thanks. Best wishes, Crash106

Ayup ... I was wondering about that Aufzynder. Wondering if I was just "trying" too hard. Trying to Force myself to ride in a way that is not appropriate for public roads or the speed I feel comfortable riding. So, I guess the point of learning to use a lot of lean angle is for the track, playing around in a parking lot, when a corner sneaks up on you or an emergency forces your hand. Would you agree that keeping a steady hand on the throttle and learning how to quickly lean your body IN and push the bike UP would be good skills to have On Demand? Maybe that would give me the warm fuzzy feeling I'm looking for (although, watching the vanishing point and good throttle control give me a LOT of that feeling).

I started studying riding techniques so I wouldn't feel so hesitant to lean into corners. I guess I just don't trust the tires to grip. Compared to past years, I feel I have pretty good technique with much better throttle control and vision plus faster steering input. I still don't lean very far--20-25-degrees maybe. It just seems like I don't need much lean on the street. Am I missing something? I can see that I don't really NEED to slow down as much as I do on some corners, and I could use more lean angle without exceeding the posted speed limit or scraping the hard parts. I understand that intellectually, but I'm still hesitant. Not sure if I still don't trust the tires, or my steering speed, or if there just aren't enough places where I can go faster through the corners without overdriving my sightline. Do you know any safe ways to practice leaning more on the public roads? Is this something that is best done in the controlled environment at CSS? Or do you think I should just satisfy my need for speed by rolling out of the turns and pinning it?

I'm glad to see this thread here because until I read it, I always thought the technique for handling a tank slapper was to accelerate hard and make the front tire LIGHTER, or get it in the air, so it could reset and settle down. Of course, I wondered about this "advice" because I wasn't sure how you could gas it with the bars slamming around like that. In the video "Speed on Two Wheels," they put a Goldwing on cruise control and whack the handle bars to cause a nasty tank slapper motion, then let the bike settle down--all No Hands! You can see this segment about 1:06 into the clip below. The oscillation starts to settle in just a few seconds. I guess the correct response to a tank slapper is a case of doing more by doing less.

The way you add more lean angle is by counter steering. Have you tried using your vision and counter steering to "connect the dots" from your turn in point, to the apex, to the exit?

I'm sorry you fell down, but I'm glad the gear worked as advertised. After I fell over in my gravel driveway last year--just missing a softball sized rock with my shoulder--I bought a summer jacked with CE pads in the elbows, shoulders and back. Haven't test it yet, but I feel a lot better about having it. Good to know the school armor works so well. I'll leave the testing to you--if you don't mind. ;~)

Great question. I noticed something interesting watching American Superbikes. It was a race with Josh Hayes in the lead, sliding the bike into every corner, powering out with the rear end getting loose and the front end popping up on the straights. I'm thinking. "No way could I do that! I'd be scared to death." One bike length behind Josh Hayes was Tommy Hayden. Tommy was going through the same corners, at the same speed, but his braking was smooth with hardly a wiggle from the back tire. He was right with Josh in the corners, but without the drama and excitement of sliding the bike, and Tommy's front tire was almost always on the ground. I'm thinking, "That's how I want to ride!" As of this writing, they are running one and two in the standings with Tommy Gun 1 point ahead. So I guess both styles work pretty well. If everybody needs a hero to emulate, Tommy Hayden is mine.

Why do I ride? I ride because it is the only place I feel like myself. I live with a very limiting muscle disorder, related migraine headaches and a history of repeated neck injuries. But on the bike, I am free! I am myself again. I move like myself: graceful, powerful, effortless and strong (maybe that's why I enjoy hard braking so much). I get a taste of that freedom when I'm using my electric mobility scooter, but the feeling is much stronger, and more authentically ME, on the motorcycle. What's the most enjoyable part of riding? Even though my daily commuter has a full fairing, the most enjoyable part is being outside in the wind. I love it when the air changes, and I feel it get 10 degrees cooler under the trees, or I feel the water in the air by the river. I love to hear how different roads sound or see the road open up and expand into a lush, green field. I love the smell of cut grass and old wood. The wind makes me feel like I'm touching the whole world at once.

Great discussion. I can clearly see how a 1/2 second quick flick would be completely appropriate on a race tack going through a chicane. So, how do I apply this to street riding when I don't have knee pucks to protect me? On a cruiser with 30-degree lean angle, you can use the floor boards as feeler gauges. On lots of sport bikes, I'm not even sure you can use the foot peg extensions because the lean angle is way down there at 40-degrees. What could I use to judge too much lean in a fast corner when I'm not wearing pucks? I'm not just talking about blasting down a two lane at 80 mph, but even just trying to beat the yellow light around a corner in town. That's a street application of the quick flick I've actually needed in my daily riding.

Dear Dan, Yes. I believe you can turn too quickly. I believe the idea is to turn "as quickly as possible ... given the requirements of the turn." Not every turn requires you to snap the bike over. You just need to give the turn what it needs. Here are some question you might consider: Are you in the turn waiting for the bike to settle? Is the bike rocking up and down? Are you fighting with the bars trying to find the right lean angle? If you are waiting, are you able to get on the gas and get to 40/60 or are you stuck, just being carried along? On the other hand, are you able to glide right in and roll on the throttle? Are you able to look in and turn quickly without loosing visual contact with your apex, exit or vanishing point (whichever one you are looking for next)? Me? I'm just a slug with nice boots, so I like to let my vision set the turning pace. Best wishes, Crash106

Great answers. Thank you. I knew there had to be some logical reason. Once again, a perfectly good theory shot in the behind by the real world.

Hello Race Fans, So, if we "stear for the rear," because that's where the most rubber is, and if racers often wash out the front tire from over braking at turn entry, why don't we just put on a wider front tire? Harley-Davidson is doing this on some of their Power Cruisers but I think this is mostly a fashion statement. Would a wider front tire really make the bike THAT much harder to turn? Thanks, Crash106

Hello All, I've been looking into the turns, setting sensible entry speeds, using Throttle Rule One and trying to turn in once and keep everything nice and steady and smooth. This feels wonderful: safe, easy, relaxing, but NOW, I'm getting all kinds of weird information through the hand grips. I feel the road drop away under my front tire. I feel funny little jiggles. I feel the bars (and can actually see them sometimes) turning a bit left and right. I feel the bike at one angle, while the road cambers up and down to different degrees. I feel like the front end is very light--it almost feels "invisible." Is this normal? Is this what happens when you don't have a death grip on the bars? Or do I need to take the bike to the shop? FYI--the front tire pressure is okay and while worn, the front tire still has maybe 1/8" of tread available before I hit the wear indicator bars. Thanks. Crash106