Crash106

Ayup. I agree with the others--locking into the tank, even making solid contact with the tank, really helps relax the arms, relax the eyes and steer the bike. Weird but true.

I'm afraid I'm still riding around with the foamy back protectory thingy in my mesh jacket. I keep looking for something more that doesn't cost a bundle, but I'd LIKE to have something that protects my back and my front. The SPIDI Defender Armor looks interesting.

Try this: Instead of picking a Braking point, pick a Get Off the Brakes point. That way you can brake just as hard as you want and enjoy that rush of deceleration, have confidence that you can make your turn in and apex, and be in good shape to charge the straight. If you like to point and shoot the bike, think of the turn as a little breather. In other words, think of getting off the brakes and around the corner as giving yourself time to take the slack out of the drive train in preparation for that rush of acceleration. Use the pause AFTER the braking is done to point the bike where you want to go and easy on some throttle.

Good suggestion, Cobie. I've been trying to listen to the top riders and how they use the throttle in the corners. Of course, the first thing is that listening for useful information during TV coverage of AMA Superbike, Sportbike or MotoGP TV is tough. They switch shots constantly and the sound never seems to match up well with one certain rider or even a small group of riders. Still, from what I can tell about throttle control As A Group is that most of the riders roll off down to the apex, then roll on. I couldn't really hear any of the riders lean in and roll on before the apex. I did sometimes hear the throttle pause in chicanes or complicated turns. So, what does that mean? I have crappy listening skills? Maintenance throttle is hard to hear? The way you ride for fastest lap time is different from the way you ride to stay in front of another rider? "As soon as possible" can mean after the apex? I'm not used to listening for this sort of thing, so I think I may be missing a lot of information that you would hear. Still, to my untrained ear, it didn't sound like any of these guys was getting on the throttle too early. To me, it sounded like maybe they were too late. At the same time, the lean angles were so extreme that I don't know if Anybody could give the bikes much throttle before the apex. What do you hear?

My body doesn't always work well. I'll never be a world champion. Even if I, one day, do some club racing, I will probably never win a race. Still, I have already used the CSS rider technology to cut my survival reactions and become a better, smoother, safer rider. I rarely chop the throttle mid corner now. So, I'm not suddenly running out of ground clearance. I use the front brake harder, so my stopping distances are shorter. I keep my eyes up, most of the time. Even when my vision gets stuck on a corner entrance, I quickly recognize the problem and know how to fix it. These are real world results. Even my wife enjoys riding with me more. We don't konk each other in the head much anymore, and when we get into the corners, sometimes she says, "Go ahead. Lean it over more. I don't mind." I'll never be a world champion, but the improvements in my riding have been measurable and much appreciated.

May I just say that Throttle Control Rule #1 is NOT: "Never add lean angle and throttle at the same time." TCR#1 is: "Once the throttle is cracked on, it is rolled on smoothly, and constantly through the remainder of the turn." Maybe it's just me, but I tend to think the problems from Too Early are not necessarily as bad as the problems with Too MUCH! If I roll off, lean over, roll on--all I've done is make the bike handle by getting the weight onto the back tire. If I roll off, lean over, roll on too hard--then the bike may want to stand up, run wide or slide the rear tire. Even if I wait until the bike is fully turned and pointed where I want it to go Before I roll on the throttle, I can still get in trouble from rolling on too MUCH power. Also, some turns (curves more than corners) are taken flat out. No roll off. Rolling on Too Early simply does not apply. But I can still get in trouble if I enter the curve too fast--with Too MUCH speed. So, the way I think about it is that Too Early means: At the wrong speed for the turn, While the bike is in the process of leaning over, or Before the bike is FULLY turned. Wrong speed is less than ideal and means either I'm going too slow, trying to catch up and apt to add too much power and overwhelm the rear tire; or I'm going too fast and will try to add more power anyway, because I'm "supposed to," and get scared, slam the throttle closed and get the whole bike out of shape. Adding throttle while the bike is moving down and in the process of leaning over is just tricky. Even if I only add a little throttle, and I am nowhere near sliding, it's hard to be smooth. When I try this, the throttle almost always get slapped open upsetting the bike and giving me at least a little scare. Also, since I'm trying to do two things at once (control my decent down to my desired lean angle, and roll on the throttle), my attention tends to come back to the bike, or even inside my body. I stop seeing well and so, do not do a good job setting my lean angle or speed. To me, this loss of visual focus is the biggest problem with getting on the gas Too Early. Tons of racers open the throttle after the bike's lean angle has been set, but before the apex, where they will add more lean angle. As far as I can tell, this has become the standard technique. Almost every pro road racer I see is either on the brakes all the way to the apex, or they lean in, rolled on, then pause the roll on for a second as they dip down to the apex. Trail braking and pausing the roll on both take a good deal of finesse, but don't automatically mean the rider is going to crash. Since these guys are racing, they may not even be breaking TCR#1 since they did get on the gas as soon as they could, under the circumstances.

Hello Bullet and All, Thanks for the feedback and the warnings, but I never said "roll on the throttle BEFORE turning in," and I'm talking about the turn-in, not the roll on so TCR1 literally does not apply. Since almost everyone has misread or misunderstood my question, let me see if I can reduce it to simplest terms: Increasing speed + Increasing lean angle = Bad. Everyone agrees. Reducing speed + Increasing lean angle = Good. Almost everyone agrees. Maintaining speed + Increasing lean angle = THIS is my question--okay or not okay? I'm really talking about the application of TCR2--remember that one? I didn't think this was such a hard question. I'll shut up now.

Thanks for all your feedback. I appreciate your taking the time to respond. I have been out playing in traffic for about a week now, and here is what I learned: It was fun trying to time everything perfectly and roll off the throttle just before the turn in. It worked fine. The bike liked to turn that way and it's was not hard to do. At the same time, any advantage gained by using momentum to change the steering geometry seemed small at the speeds I was riding. Making an effort to enter corners on the brakes was a pain in the seat warmer. Again, I may have gained a small advantage in turn-in speed, but I had to enter corners hotter than I normally would in order to need to use the brakes. On the other hand, I did trail brake all the way to the apex in the second corner of a downhill right-left corkscrew. I needed to do it and had no problems using the technique when necessary. Setting my speed early and running into the corner on neutral or maintenance throttle worked fine in almost every corner I tried it on. This technique allowed me to setup for the turn, then keep my eyes on the vanishing point. With my eyes up, my mind relaxed and nothing else to do, I was better able to subconsciously calculate my speed, turn point and roll on. By letting my eyes guide me, instead of my technique, I believe I actually rode faster and with less effort. My exit speed was certainly higher. I believe it is okay, even beneficial, to have a standard technique you use for most turns most of the time. I also see great value in knowing the other methods and being able to use them as necessary. I hope you have a wonderful ride this weekend!

In this hypothetical example, both motorcycles are going the exact same speed (60 mph) when they are leaned into the corner. Rider A has looked ahead and judged that he wants to enter the turn at 60 mph. He is using enough throttle to maintain his speed of 60 mph until, and while, he tips in. (So the throttle is slightly OPEN while he leans the bike, but he's at a safe speed and not ADDING any throttle.) Rider B also leans the bike over going 60 mph, but he would be OFF the throttle, decelerating and slightly loading the front tire, while he leans the bike. After leaning the bike (getting the bike turned), both riders would then roll on the throttle as per TCR1. So long as the bike isn't bouncing around on the suspension, I don't think the bike cares if you are ON the throttle of OFF the throttle when you turn, provided you are going the correct speed. Am I wrong? Or am I, perhaps, missing the point and begging for trouble? On the other hand, I think Rider A would probably be mentally calmer and more relaxed on the bike. Do you agree?

If I am already at an appropriate speed for a corner, and I am maintaining that speed as I turn in, is there any reason I need to be OFF the throttle? For example, two bikers approach a corner. Biker A sets his speed early, he's going 60 mph 20 feet before the turn point and when he reaches his turn point, he maintains a steady throttle and tips it in. Biker B is going 65mph 20 feet before the turn point and is still on the brakes. He manages to reach the turn point at 60 mph and tips in off the throttle and off the brakes. Clearly biker A has less drama, but does either bike have a handling or safety advantage and why?

I scared myself on a corner today. I was rushing to the dentist--grabbing a cancelled appointment. When I came to a sweeping turn onto a side street, I was only going about 5 mph faster than normal and nowhere near the bike's lean limits. I turned in, finally looked up and said, "Man am I going fast. I'll never get it turned." From Keith's book, I knew this was a survival reaction, but what did I really do wrong? Honestly, I wasn't really watching where I was going. My vision was low, and my body was out of position for the turn. From reading "Twist 2," I knew enough to look for the exit and turn the darned bike, but almost any visual technique would have worked better than gazing vaguely forward. I thought about this some more as I was driving my car this evening. If you get scared in a car, you can push yourself "away" from the danger and still steer the vehicle. You can turn a steering wheel with you arms straight. If you get scared and push away from a motorcycle's handle bars, you can't steer the bike. To steer a bike, and make it lean, you must bend your arms and actually push and pull on those grips. It works a lot better when you see the turn coming and make sure you're ready.

Hello 08Missle. You're onto something--the biceps have much better leverage and strength to pull heavy weights than the triceps you use to push with. Why? The triceps tendons have to go over the elbow joint so the muscles have to work against that leverage. So, pulling can feel much stronger. At the same time, it takes very little strength to turn a motorcycle (at least till you start going really fast). As you approach a turn, you might try tightening your abs (of all things) and allowing your body to bend forward toward the bars. This will unlock your arms and allow them to turn the bike with very little sense of effort or even intention. Look at people's avatar photos, and you'll see their elbows are well bent when they're leaned over. The first lean is forward toward the bars, then down into the corner. At least, that's how it feels to me.

Nice picture, Mike. Is that you? I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, Mike. I think Casey Stoner's position looks pretty good. He is keeping the outside knee pointed forward and pressed against the tank. This gives him plenty of room to lean off to the inside. He looks comfortable and in control. He's not crossed up. His head, eyes, shoulders and hips are all pointed in the direction of travel. My impression is that Stoner has a good solid lower body position that allows him to lean his upper body forward and in toward the inside handgrip more than some other riders. It's more than I need at my level, but I'd be happy with Stoner's riding position. What I don't see is Stoner opening his hips up so far that his outside knee and toes actually point out, away from the bike. His lower body position is not so extreme that he has to grip the frame above the outside footpeg with his heel and hold himself on the bike with is leg biceps. I've seen pros ride that way and it looks very tiring and uncomfortable. The leg biceps are fast-twitch high-strength fibers that fatigue quickly. You wouldn't want to ride 3 or 4 laps that way then hit a bump. If I tried that, I'd be rolling down the track waving bye-bye to my race bike.

Congrats, RodRob. Well done! Gotta love those Buells. I really wanted a Cafe Racer, but couldn't get the cash together before they folded. I assume you've been around bikes for awhile, you being a champ and all, so I just wonder if you notice a lot of difference riding a big twin versus a 4 banger?

I think what Nick was getting at was moving your weight to the inside of the turn so the bike can remain more upright. If you are sitting at your computer, try this: Put your feet flat on the floor (they might need to be outside the legs of your chair--a hard chair might work better too) Leave your hands on the keyboard/bars, then lift your butt off your seat and "hang off" toward the right side of your chair Now try the left side Now try and get "crossed up," with your butt one way and your shoulders the other way So, that was fun. Right? But what is your butt telling you? Where is the tension in your legs? If you are hanging off the right side, which quad gets tired first, right leg or left leg? In order to move without putting weight on your arms, what do you have to do with your upper body? If you keep your legs still, how much can you shift your weight, just by leaning forward and onto one butt cheek? Is it more comfortable to tense your back, or your abs? Granted, centrifugal force changes this dynamic a bit by holding you down in the seat. At the same time, you can still feel interesting things happening that you might not notice with everything else happening on your bike.

I live in the Carolinas and am also interested in Corner Spin. They have a sister class called Corner Speed, but honestly, it would have to be something special to beat CSS. If anyone decides they want to go, let me know. I'm kind of a slug, but if our schedules match, maybe we can get together.

The Tail of the Dragon is about a day's ride from my house. I road it two up with my wife on our Burgman and had a great time. This is one of my . It shows a man on a Goldwing, but it's shot from a tripod bungee corded onto the top of his trailer. You'll notice a nice smooth ride and a fair amount of lean available on that big touring bike.

Jason said, "... if it's simple, yet we don't understand it, then we would have to feel foolish ..." Oh, Jason! You can't just lay the truth out like that, man. What if I don't understand it? I would probably feel like an idjit.

The LAST THING you want to do is play with using a shorter and shorter braking zone and moving that zone closer and closer to your turn point. On the other hand, if you are already on the racing line, have good exit speed, and have good mid-corner speed, well, the only thing left that can cut your time is to cut that braking zone. So, Lorenzo is at that point. Good for him. He has it all together, all the way through the turn from end back to the beginning. Nothing wrong with that. He's not "charging" the turns when he knows exactly where to get on the brakes, how hard to brake, and where to get off the binders. He'll still enter the turn where he wants and at the speed he chooses. He'll have to be careful to not push to cut too much time by over-braking and falling down or scaring himself and slowing down, but those things don't seem to be happening so ... more power to him.

OUCH! I hope you feel better soon. Take care of yourself and take it easy for awhile, y'hear? Glad you had on enough gear to cover your assets.

Even if you have all six of those qualities or elements, it won't make one bit of difference if you don't do the basics well. If you can't do the basics on demand, or you don't know what the basics are, then working hard, practicing intensely and all that is meaningless. I think the better question is: What are the ESSENTIALS of riding a motorcycle? Seeing? Can you get through a corner with your eyes closed? Not really. Do you have to see your way through EVERY corner? Yes. I suspect seeing is essential. Throttle control? Can you get through a corner with bad throttle control? Well, yeah. Odds are that's how we all used to ride and it works kind-a okay. You can also break the throttle rule in the sense of slowing down through corner four to optimize speed in corner five. Is throttle control an essential? I'm not sure. Maybe throttle discipline is essential. Fast, accurate, steering? It doesn't "always" have to be fast (for example, you don't need to dive into a big sweeper)--so maybe "appropriate" steering is more accurate. I think it always has to be accurate and that means seeing and being relaxed on the bars. Let me give you an example of the essentials for shooting a pistol well. People blab on about grip and stance and gear, but in every situation from big game hunting, to target competition, to self defense, you MUST do three ESSENTIAL things if you want to hit your target. 1) Find the target, 2) Put the gun on the target, 3) Leave the gun on the target while you fire the shot. Always, always, always. If, in competition, you relax and focus on these essentials, you will be instantly faster and more accurate. So, what are the ESSENTIALS that you always, always, always do when riding? Road race, drag race, country road, commuting or touring--what must we always do? When we relax and concentrate on these essentials, we'll all have the tools to ride better and faster.

Hello All, All I want to do is set my tire pressure, but on my bike, I have such a hard time even reaching my valve stems. Then, when I get the hose in there, the chuck or tip won't lock up tight. My front tires is still low. My back tire has, maybe 25# and it's supposed to have 41#, but I just can't get a tight enough seal to fill the darned thing all the way up! It's very frustrating. How do you fill your tires? I'm thinking a hand pump or foot pump made for bicycle tires might work. Something that "locks" or clips in place and has a tire pressure gauge build in. Or, is there a different chuck that a "real" tires store or motorcycle shop might have out in the garage? I hate that uncertain feeling when my tires are off. Any suggestions? Thanks. Best wishes, Crash

Dear Stuman, Thanks so much for posting that helmet-cam view of riding on the track. So often, when I see track video shot from the fairing or a snazzy camera mount, I'm amazed at how freakishly SMOOTH the rider is. I ain't anywarz NEAR that good. YOUR video, on the other hand, is much closer to my experience of going fast. The wind is knocking you around. You're moving around the bike, sometimes getting bounced up in the air, rocking from bumps, taking a look at the turns points or the pavement. Watching your helmet-cam video makes me understand why I don't like to go that fast--It's a little scary! You make it look easy, but you can really feel the human element, and the sense of exciting-danger, in your video. Enlightening!

Welcome to the forum, Nikolas. I would say this is a good "12 Step" group for recovering curv-a-holics, but that group actually meets over at Lee Parks' website. I like your comment that you are riding a "completely different road" than other people. So true. Say, how are the roads in Greece? Are there any nice YouTube.com videos of the best roads in your Mediterranean paradise?