2bigalow

You mentioned you feel the tire rebound back. Yes, the tire does go out of track for a moment, but with a properly executed quick turn you shouldnt feel the tire rebound. You mention only applying pressure to the bars to get the bike to lean over then let OFF. That should be a perfect quick turn. What are you doing with your opposite hand? If your getting a "rebound" or bobble as you reach the desired lean angle, your forcing the bike to stop leaning by either pushing pulling on the bars. IE push / pull to countersteer and arresting the movement as it nears the proper lean angle. all you need is apply pressure, lean, stop applying pressure to stop leaning. And Racer is correct about weighting the pegs to turn in. Does nothing to acutually TURN the bike in. If fact check out the last GP. Rossi, Stoner, Pedrosa, and Edwards were all taking their inside foot off the peg while turning in on particular corners.

Does nobody else have any thoughts on this? I believe that is a true statement. Kinda. What about rotating mass in the front wheel. IE A loooong wheelie. During a long wheelie, the front tire will stop spinning, which causes the bike to become unstable and more difficult to maintain an upright / straight line. Can still be done, but it harder to do. Is this the same principle as the bike being leaned over (on the gas) with the front wheel off the ground maintaining the same radius? IE corner exit. You mention skis. Now that makes sense. The lead edge followed by the trailing edge because it's a solid piece. Turn that leading edge and the rear edge must pivot around the lead edge, thus pushing snow away from it.

I was riding a BMW 1150RT. The corners I used the most were freeway clover leaf style on ramps posted at a "cautionary" speed of 25 MPH and 30 MPH. You know, the ones you try to double. I was leaning around 30 to 35 degrees and not hanging off. I think the beemers max lean is 42 (ish) degrees before scraping pegs. Thanks for the safety concerns. If anything, having my hands off the bars keeps me from placing any undue pressures on the bars and tucking the front (again) ha! . The funny thing about this link is Keith did all this for YEARS to research his books. (And still does) I'm sure he could easily shed some light on the question we're trying to answer. But that would take all the fun out of it.

That was true until April this year. Both Tigert and Aquino SHATTERED the record (1:17.6 by Tigert) in 600 superbike. Tigert did a 1:16.0 which was followed up by Tommy Aquino with a 1:15.8. Unfortunately Aquino had a low side shortly after. Both those guys were on a mission to out do each other. It was fun to watch until I couldn't seem them any more.

I see your thought process. So, I played with the hands off idea for the last three days and really paid attention to not only the bike running wide, but how it is running wide. At speed above 30 MPH the bike runs wide (which we know it will do) and felt as if it was rotating around its center mass to stand up, but plowing the front. Almost as if it would lean all the way to the other side if something else wasn't pulling it back down (very slight). Automatic "pick-up" counter steering? Tire bite? gravity? . Now, at speeds below 30 MPH or when my bike would slow beyond that, it would stand up, but pull / turn to the inside of the corner the more it slowed. I tried this on all types of corners, tight, slow, fast, banked, off camber ect and the result was the same and only varied slightly. I started to think about the rear and how it plays in steering the bike (off the gas). The rear tire wants to go to the outside of the corner and uses the steering head as a pivot point. I kept thinking the front contact patch may play a part in the pivot point, but if that was the case, a bikes tendency to self correct during a rear wheel slide would not happen. The rear is pivoting around the steering head. I also thought of hard braking. If on the brakes hard with the rear wheel in the air, the bike will not lean in. If the wheel in touching the ground it will follow the front wheel Now, lets say you're using a slipper clutch (at speed) , the bike will lean in, but pivot around the steering head like a flat tracker. I guess that brings up the question we're talking about. At what point does the rear want to go to the out side or track the front wheel. And of course rear end chatter while leaning in is SCARY. Rear end chatter has it all. Grip, no grip, tracks the front, then doesn't track the front, will lean in, then will not lean in. I'm sure glad the laws of physics still work even if you cant understand them.

Yes. Just ask the off track coach. Be sure to do it when you will not miss any seminars or track sessions.

WOW! I hope you're alright. That is dedication!!!! Thanks for take one for the team. When I said negative trail, I meant actually behind the steering head. But when I read "shopping cart" the light came on. All it would become is a shorter wheel base. So, never mind my thought.

Wouldnt the bars turn inward slightly since its the inside, leading edge, of the tire bitting the surface (pulling inward). IE a bicycle ghosting down the road. the bars will turn slightly to the inside by themselves. That tells me that leading edge and trail as you said, has something going on which is pushing the bike wide. Obviously this is without rear wheel power being put on the ground. Does this idea go out the window on the gas? IE a bike leaned over on the gas with the front wheel off the ground. Thus rolling on thru the whole corner. I like to think of scenarios at extremes. So, What about negative trail? I mean ALOT lets say 50-70 mm behind the steering head. How does that effect the self correcting properties of a two wheeled vehicle? Again I'm posing a question. I dont have the mathematical abilities to put this on paper. I'm more of a build it and see what happens kind of guy. I can relate with your playing with a bike in the show room to see what happens

In the States we have the No BS bike (Body steering) available to all level one students The Brake rig (for feeling a front wheel lock) available to all level one / two students at a two day camp. Lean bike for Level three students Slide bike for level 3 / 4 students. You may want to check with the guys at the UK school though. They may have different requirements. Cobie could answer your question, but he's on the road for the next couple of weeks, if you can wait that long.

It's usually not a problem, but I would call the track to make 100 percent sure. There has been miscommunication with the various tracks in the past.

I believe 'Sportmax' is Dunlop's designation for "sporting riding" tires and covers many models, racing and touring. I'm guessing they switched from having a DOT race / street tire available in two compounds, to a tire with a whole different name IE Qualifiers to eliminate any confusion. ??? The 208GP (sportmax) use to be Dunlop's DOT race tire, replacing the 207. They then switched to the 209GP (sportmax) which was / is a GOOD tire IMOP. Fairly recently to the 209GP Ntec. And now, the latest and greatest is the 211GP. I personally haven't ridden the 211, but have heard good things. The N-tec's are nice if you like to spin up the rear slightly (in a good way). Very predictable tire.

Welcome and thanks for the compliments. James T. is a great coach.

Hi kankaloo, Welcome to the sport! Here's a good tip for the clutch. When your sitting still, let the clutch out VERY slowly and find the "gray area". The gray area is just as the clutch begins to bite, but not enough to propel the bike forward. THEN slowly let it out and add gas. Dont think of the clutch as an on/off type switch, there's lots of area in between. Practice finding the gray area and clutching the bike will become a no brainer.

I'm not sensitive, just shy. I didn't realize it was important to those on the forum. I guess that's why Cobie posed the question. Hey racer where's your signature pic? You have more posts than me. Ha!

Hey guys, very interesting post. Isnt a wider arc caused by rolling friction (or the lack of) when the lean angle is maintained? When tires wear, small balls of rubber are tearing of the tire carcass and being shed. The more speed that is added, the more the tires slide. IE a car for example (no lean angle here) making a left turn, at full wheel lock, at a slow speed, will create an arc, 'X" amount in diameter. When speed is added the arc becomes larger relative to the speed. Rolling friction? Forward velocity? I'm posing a question, not making an argument. I will not even try to pretend my mathematical abilities are close to the hieroglyphics I've seen in the previous posts.

Hi Patrick, Both are good tires. The qualifiers will last longer since they are geared more (not much) toward the street with a trackday or two thrown in. The GP's will have more grip, but will wear faster. Since the GP's are geared more toward racing (even though they are DOT approved for the street) they take a long time to get up to proper riding temp, especially on cold days without tire warmers. I personally dont like riding GPs on the street just for that reason, but love 'em on the track.. GP's are also more sensitive to heat cycles after alot of use. (Hi racer ) [the heat cycle thing was a whole other post ] If cost isnt a factor and your bike is track only, I'd would use the GPs. Since you not using tire warmers, just be careful your first couple of laps every session.

Set the sag. Unless you ARE the predetermined weight the factory feels is average, then the suspension is not set for you. The factories have to accommodate many different body types and weights and must make compromises. Take the time and set your sag. The best money you can spend is on a good suspension tuner at a track day to get your bike "dialed in". (Other than going to school that is )

I run 190/55 and like the feel. When I did switch from a 180, I immediately noticed the bike did turn slower. One thing you have to be careful of is the tire rubbing on the front of the swing arm near the pivot point. Race tire profiles are really tall compared to stock tires anyway, and by putting it on a skinny rim will make it even taller. Obviously you could adjust the chain length to compensate, but the fit is still tight. I haven't ridden a 195 so my imput on that would be worthless. It comes down to personal preference. If you do run the 190 or 195's 55 or 65 make sure you adjust your geometry accordingly. IE tall tire in the front, drop the triples. Tall tire in the rear , lower the ride height adjuster. A good comparison would be to run your bike with the current tires, switch to the 190 or 195 and make the proper geometry adjustments back to back. Your compression and rebound may need to change, but that's a whole other thread.

Any quality brand tires will be fine. IE The school bikes are on Dunlop Qualifier tires, which are street tires and have more than enough grip.

I was looking through some old posts and found this write up from Keith about trail braking. I'm not sure if it was posted previously in this thread (too lazy to read the whole think again), but it has some great info. The last paragraph is very interesting. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Keith wrote: What I love about forums is their thought provoking aspect. Rider?s comments, and personal experiences make me think. Behind every answer is a question and behind every question there is an answer. This trail-braking issue brings up a load of both. Ever since I first investigated trail-braking and graphed it and set up some guidelines for it in the first ?A Twist of the Wrist? book in 1981 I?ve mainly focused on its more basic aspect, that of a rider?s Sense of Speed. Sense of Speed is a rider?s ability to accurately judge differences and similarities in speed from one pass through a corner to the next time they encounter it. No matter how or when a rider is braking his Sense of Speed directs the whole activity. This is the irreducible part of the rider/bike/road combination which must be in good working order. Following right on the heels of this sense is the rider?s Sense of Traction and I?ll talk about that a little later in this. One of the other main issues that revolve around braking is the suspension action. The compression and extension that can occur with either 1) straight up braking or 2) trailing brakes into the corner. Cornering enthusiasts both feel it and understand that making the transition from on to off the brake(s) and entering the turn should be as seamless as possible in order not to upset the suspension (read traction). On a telemetry graph it would look like a continuous line as the rider released the brake and the cornering forces took over--that goes for either method of braking. Now if you look at this aspect closely you will see that there is actually another sense which we develop to comply with this demand to make that transition a smooth one. In order to make this work out we first of all must be aware of the bike?s dive attitude (how far down is the nose of the bike). In order now to make it successful the rider must also be aware of the compression the cornering forces will provide for the speed he has entered the corner. How much will it compress from that force? A straight line braker?s ability to reckon where the suspension compression will be once he is into the turn plus his timing of letting off the brakes and turning to maintain the compression at that level have to be very good. The trail-braking rider feels his way into the turn more on his sense of traction and has both forces (braking compression on the suspension as well as the cornering forces on it) acting on the bike at the same time so his job is simplified to a great degree. It more or less eliminates the precision timing and sense of the bike?s pitched-forward attitude that it takes to do it the other way. He approaches the lean, speed, traction more gradually and gets continuous feedback from them. With the straight line method the rider has to also determine by his feel and prediction just how quick his flick into the corner needs to be to maintain the suspension compression smoothly. A lot of multi-tasking is going on here. When you realize that this all has to be figured out just BEFORE he does it you see why the two methods are so different. Here is another way of saying it. The trail braking method privides the rider with feedback as he transitions and the straight line method doesn?t allow you feedback until after you already committed and completed it and there ain?t no fixing it, at least not on that lap. There is a high degree of confidence in yourself and your prediction of the forces and your other senses of speed and traction and your ability to quick turn the bike that are essential before you?d be willing to make this level of commitment. Beside all that, there is another huge benefit to learning the straight up/quick flick style. It provides a rider with valuable feedback about tire traction and cornering loads. When you quick flick the bike with poor timing you get a sudden load on the suspension and the tires. This is the thing that riders get into their heads will make them crash?usually they think they are going to loose the front and go down. They get spooked from that sudden load. The feeling of the sudden load came from releasing the brakes too soon before they flicked it. The front end comes up from the release and then dives again from the flick in. If you break that down you?ll see that the load, while it may have a little higher peak force, wasn?t anymore than they would have experienced if they had made that transition into the turn with perfect control timing. The sudden load came from their error not because it is part of the style of riding. This is another one of those things that can become confusing to any rider. They have simply misidentified the real cause of the sudden loading. It could and often is enough to make riders think that they are going to crash by quick flicking the bike. I think that the facts and the physics of the matter are this: If you had the front tire right at 110% traction and you flicked it in and maintained that load that you would be OK and have a killer turn entry speed. You would not have violated the traction limit of the tire (they like to slide a bit for max traction in any case) and would have learned an enormous amount about traction limits. It?s that commitment thing that makes this difficult. I have heard schools of thought that say that trailing the brakes is an ?advanced? skill. I have heard schools of thought that say you will get passed if you don?t learn to trail. That may very well be true, I don?t know everything. What I do know is this: Once a rider can successfully and confidently do the straight line method; once he can do it with flawless timing and clean seamless transitions and he trusts himself and is willing to make these commitments, learning the trail-in style is a piece of cake. Doing it in the other order is not so easy. Keith

Couldn't find anything Keith wrote, but Will put up some good info here. http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.ph...ic=11&st=40

Welcome Billy. Glad you had a great time in Vegas. Fun little track eh? Sure doesn't look like much, until you ride it. 1st race ever? Wow, you're gonna have a new addiction. Congrats

Both Josh and Misti are racing Fontana this weekend. #177 and #141. If you're going to the races, stop by the pits and give 'em a thumbs up.

Sleepr, Actually that is a very good observation. Turning up the idle will definitely hide some of your errors. Leaving the idle as is (stock) will force you to concentrate on a smooth roll on and really make you "feel" any small changes, right or wrong. Proper throttle control is THE most important skill when riding a motorcycle. This includes noobies all the way to MotoGP riders. Top racers have surgeon like sensitivity when it comes to throttle control. It's a skill you should work on every time you ride a bike. Or you could just cheat and buy a bike with throttle control. (not really, there's still no substitute for good throttle control) Jr

Not Sears. Street of Willow turn 3. Walked away, but bruised or cracked a rib. My ego was hurt more than anything else. I crashed there before doing the EXACT SAME THING (wrong thing that is). I guess that makes me a really slow learner. Mid Ohio is a great track. Yeah turn 10 gives me the willies too. The track is WAY better without the patches. Although, you can still feel the bike move around if you find the old seam. Doesn't compromise the grip though. Kinda like when a freeway seam pulls the bike around.