2bigalow

Hey Paul, What is the reason you're waiting to slide over after braking and down shifting? "brake > downshift > slide > 1-cone > count to 1 > turn in"

Hey Racer, Yeah that's the link. Great stuff. I'm on the same page with you about getting good info for novice racers. Better new tires than new body work any day. I posted my experiences for argument and conjecture. And you can always give a good argument. I mean that in a positive way. I sometimes just cringe when someone says they crashed because of the tires. Especially if I see it and think "NO" you crashed because....(This happened with a good friend of mine) I crashed racing two weeks ago. Tucked the front on a down hill double apex corner. I could have easily said "It was the tires" but in reality I was on the bars too much with the number one and number two fingers of my right hand on their own program. You'd think they would know better. But none the less it was a crash. And I couldn't blame the tires 'cause I really liked the grip and feeling I was getting from them. As far as Will running "used" tires, I'm sure it was lightly "used" tires. Not 38 heat cycles. Will is VERY good at sliding the tires and any sliding would just slow his lap times. But I'll let Will chime in on that one.

You need to upgrade the front end. The stock forks are damper rod, which are pretty much 1960 technology, maybe even earlier. Some of the more "Senior" riders may be able to put their two cents in to confirm or reject this time frame. Think of a pipe with a hole in it and that's a damper rod fork. Replace the inards with a race tech emulator or drop in cartridges. Way better than stock. You may need to replace the springs too. I'm not sure how stiff the stock springs are, or if they're progressive rate for that matter. But most likely they'll need to be replaced. I've also heard of whole front end swaps off of a GSXR, but personally I have never seen one in person.

Yes, James "JR" Brown. I should prolly, one of these days, change my log on signature. Are you racing at Willow? Or track days? What kind of times are you doing?

Hi Prand, Your pushing on the inside peg and having having the bike take a better line was the result of you taking undue pressure off the bars, not any weight transfer. This allowed the bike to track properly. Best analogy I have heard regarding weighting the pegs (to change direction) was provided by Keith. So here it is. If you were to sit in a rocking chair with both feet off the floor, but resting on the curved end of the legs, can you rock the chair by pushing on the legs with your feet? While riding thru turn 2 at big Willow it's important to get locked onto the bike with your legs. The turn is so long, it's easy to start pulling on the bars trying to hang onto the bike while hanging off. Same with turn 8, but just a whole lot faster. Here's a trick I use when riding thru turn 8. I talk to myself. "light on the bars" "light on the bars" "light on...."

Hi Steve, That sure is a change going from a Shadow to an F4i. Sounds like you got the bug for a sport bike after being on the track. Have fun on the new bike. JR

Hi Lucky, Great to have you on the site. The "track thing" IS as good as everyone says, probably even better on a Brutale. Track prep for the school is easy. Just show up with good tires and we'll take care of the rest. If your riding with a regular track day company, most require you to prep your own bike. That usually consists of the mirrors being removed and all the glass / plastic lenses taped up. Easy stuff. Hope to see you there, JR

Hey Racer, You absolutly right about my observations and that was why I posted my experience with Leon. I'm very aware of his skill and ability to ride a motorcycle to its limits, which is well beyond mine. Thus my point. Perception vs. reality. Tire wear, heat cycles, ect.. are common excuses as to why the average racer / track rider crashes. I look at it this way. If I were to ride a properly set up race bike with the latest and greatest BRAND NEW rubber against Leon on a lesser of a bike with completely shagged out tires, bald if you will, there is no doubt in my mind he would still blow right by me. His ability to "feel" the tires as they slide is what gives him the edge. If anyone is gonna ride at the professional level,as he does, they MUST be able to slide the bike, front and rear, at will well beyond the grip of the tires (new or old). The average club racer simply can not do this. Keith wrote a very good artical on here about riding beyond the grip of the tires. I'll look for the link. Ok, I think we've offically jacked this thread from the original poster. Good debate though. Almost as good as the trailbraking thead.

I think you guys are comparing apples to oranges. DOT "Street" tires to DOT "Race" tires. Both are designed for a different purposes. Lets talk heat cycles. Race DOTs are slicks with rain grooves and are designed for racing. It takes time to get heat into the tire, and as posted before, the tire must be ridden hard enough to actually get heat into the tire. Heat cycles are more critical with race tires at "race pace", but for the most part even after the recommended heat cycles have passed the tires are still very sticky and great for track days. Would I ride them on the street? No. The type of riding done on street my never get the tires to "proper" temperature for maximum grip. A track day for a moderate rider? Sure. Now to the oranges. DOT street tires. They are designed to heat up quickly and go through many, many, many heat cycles. The grip is not as good as "new" DOT race tires (when ridden hard enough to heat them), but them are still very good. Will they have more grip than a race tire at race pace after alot of heat cycles? Maybe? Would I ride them on the track? Absolutely. Is the grip good enough for a track day and later street use? Yes ------- Racer to answer your question about the school's bikes. All bikes are on Dunlops. The Coach bikes are race take offs with ALOT of heat cycles already through them PRIOR to being put on a coach bike. And they go through many more during a typical school day. The Student bikes are on brand new DOT street Qualifiers. Here's my experience comparing "Street" tires to "Race" tires while at the school. If I have a fast, near race pace student, riding a school bike on the street tires, I have to really pay attention to how many laps I have done that session to heat up my tires. More than once I have finished coaching a much slower student and go after my fast student, only to have my tires sliding all over the place. Again, the student is on street tires and I'm riding on old race tires. Once I do a lap or two at a fast pace to actually get some heat in tires I have no problems with grip. Can new grippy tires mask poor riding technique and let the rider get away with it? absolutely. I think this maybe what your shooting at Racer. Can this keep a rider with poor technique from crashing? Possibly. Should the tire be blamed if it passed it's heat cycles? Not necessarily. Here's a good little comparison I personally experienced. I was riding behind a very fast student at Sears point going down the carousel feeling like I was getting close to the traction limits of the tires, when Leon Camier (British Supersport champion) passed us on the outside riding a "student bike" with " Street tires". Now, if the theory of heat cycles holds true, that would make sense as to why my tires were getting loose, and I was being passed by a bike with street DOT's. But...his coach, was right behind him on the same line riding a coach bike with the same "Race" take off's as my bike. So, which is it??? Heat cycles? Type of tire? Skill? (This is my opinion). Should a rider's ability govern what type of tire they should use? IE a slow rider on DOT "Race" tires which may never get enough heat in them to obtain proper grip vs. the same rider riding a street tire which will get closer to it's proper grip with less speed. Am I fueling the fire of debate?

Agreed. I think Cobie may be refering to me when it came to the GP shifting. Once I spent time using it I loved it. My street bikes are standard shift (unable to swith them) and my track bikes are GP shift. GP is the way to go, but he should eventually learn both when the time is right. Just my two cents.

Hey Cobie, that also has to do with your right wrist. I kid. I kid.

I might be able to shed some light on your question. I have the unique opportunity to ride bikes with and without ABS nearly on a back to back daily basis. (On track and off track) For track riding and racing ABS is obviously a NO. The ABS will kick in under heavy braking over uneven pavement regardless if the wheel is acutally locked or not. If you ride a BMW, I'm sure your familiar with the system when it lets go and re engages. Very unstable at that point. I've always considered myself as an excellent braker and I have the opportunity to practice on a regular basis (With ABS and without). But, I must tell you I poo pooed ABS when I first road a bike with it, and I always thought I could out brake the system. That was until it saved my butt one day. I was crusing thru an intersection and observed a car getting ready to turn left. No problem, I covered my brake and watched for signs of what the driver was gonna do. IE turn or not turn. Well the driver didnt turn, BUT...the guy behind her decided to turn into the driveway BEFORE the intersection right in front of me. Oh SH#$!. I grabbed a handfull and realized I wasnt gonna be able to stop, so I quick steered to the right. Fortunately he stopped within the lane I WAS in and didn't cross into the lane I swerved to. The ABS kicked in when I grabbed the handful and allowed me to steer the bike to the right. I heard it was possible to still skid the tires with ABS and this is what happened as I leaned the bike over, but it maintained traction. Without the ABS I would have locked the front wheel and went down. There is no doubt in my mind it saved my butt. If someone asked me prior to that incident: Would you lock the front wheel in a panic situation? (on a bike without ABS) I would have answered, absolutely not! I practice all the time and I'm ready. Well that moment came, and I got my answer. I'm still not a huge fan of ABS, but If I were to buy a touring bike, it would be with ABS. I ride a BMW 1150RT with ABS just about everyday. At a good clip too, and I really dont notice the ABS even if the tire skips over a piece of uneven pavement while hard on the brakes. I've gotten so use to this, I can anticipate when it will happen and I really dont even notice it. Hope this helps. Oh, and about the guy that turned in front of me. We had a lengthy discussion that I won. JR

I agree with racer. It's hard to pick just one. I find myself thinking of each skill step by step as i approach and go thru the corner. Although I have the most fun using the hook turn. No matter how many times I do it, I'm still amazed at how much you can manipulate your line.

Humm. Cobie I think you may be right. I believe Stu broke it and Tigert followed up with a bit faster lap (on a 600) recently. I know for a fact Stu has the lap record for a liter bike.

Not trying to make Stu's head any bigger, but he did that lap record on a Liter bike. And if I remember correctly, it also involved a couple of small wheelies between turns 10 and 12. For those not familiar with the track, Streets is very tight and not the easiest to get around on a big bike.

As usual racer provided some great info. Your quest to lower lap times can be accomplished without using the rear brake. Most racers I know dont use the rear brake. Well, except a local number one plate holder who said, "The only time I use my rear brake is in the pits". So, to answer your question, no you dont need it to go fast. It's more important to fine tune other aspects of your riding. But, when Doohan was recovery from his broken leg, his bike was fitted with a thumb brake for the rear wheel. If his team went to this extent to modify his bike obviously it was important for him to have it. I remember Hopkins commenting about using his rear brake to keep the front end down over turn one at Laguna so he wouldnt have to roll off the throttle. On the flip side, Kevin Schwantz said both times he used the rear brake in his racing career he crashed. And there ya go. Two World Champions with varying opinions, and one future World Champion (I hope).

You say riders are running up on you. I assume you mean on entry of the turn after the straight. How is your exit speed of this corner compared to theirs? Can you enter or exit a turn faster? jrock stated "I can tell you that applying the brakes even after turn in “trailbraking" helped me a lot with this as I could modulate my entry speed mid turn before apex as well" That is definitely not the fastest way thru a corner. If your on the brakes, your not on the gas. By waiting to get on the gas until the apex your loosing alot of speed on the exit. Trail braking is a great skill, but is only used in limited situations.

Hey Rick, Read them as you thought. 1, 2, SS. Each book will make more sense. I assume you're a racer based on your avatar. I have a recommedation for reading the books. Read each book and use a highlighter Highlight the parts you feel are important AT that time and put a date on the inside, matching that date to the highlighter color. Then reread the same book (you will trust me) at a later date (weeks / months / year ect) and use a different color highlighter. Again, highlight the parts you feel are important and put a date on the inside. Do this over and over and you will be amazed at the progress in your abilities. Also, things you thought you understood previously may take on new meaning at various skill levels. IE Information you thought wasn't important acutally IS VERY IMPORTANT. You'll notice this each and every time you reread the books. Jim

Hey Jim, That's alittle bit of an open question that will need alot of detail to answer, but I'll throw in my two cents and keep it short. A revalve of stock suspension only modifies the stock cartridge by "revalving" the high speed compression and rebound valving stacks. Very good results can be obtained using a good tuner. Nearly all street riders will not need anymore tuning than this as well as the average to fast track day rider. Racers included, if they have a top notch tuner. The 25mm cartridge kits replace the whole cartridge inside the forks, not just the valves. Some swear by them and say its the only way to go. I personally had forks revalved with very good results. I then switched to a "drop in cartridge kit" and got even better results (not as dramatic going from stock to a basic revalve though). I will be switching to the 25mm cartridge kit this year and suspect it will be an even better improvement based on info from other racers. The results gained by properly tuned suspension will be improved braking, better acceleration delivery, but mostly front / rear tire "feel" in the corners while leaned over. Same goes for shocks. Fading is caused by heat thinning the oil during heavy use. I think with all the new technology out there fading has been nearly eliminated in any good quality shock. IE Ohlins, Penske, Elka, WP,....ect.

Hotfoot, I've used both, via the school and personal rides. I currently have stomp on my personal race bike, which works great, but...it does chew up your leathers after a year or so of hard use. None the less, it works! Having said that, I will be switching to TechSpec this year on my newly built ride. I really didn't notice the difference in grip between the two and since the tech spec is reusable and doesn't wear the leathers (as much) sold me. And yes they do look better. JB

As long as we can ride it. Yup, not a problem.

I'vd heard some call Big Willow boring. Boring... Really? Your artical sums up the unique character of Big Willow nicely and how truely difficult it is to become intimate with her. Thanks for a great read.

LOL! Racer, you been hangin' out with Stu lately?

Michael, Congratulations on the new racing adventure. Or maybe I should say sorry for the new addiction. Actually the 650 twins classes are very competative. The bikes are fairly inexpensive and are pretty easy on tires. You will learn ALOT racing a small twin. If you race anything bigger IE 600 or 1000 count on doubling your tire bill. I started racing on an ex500 and I'm really glad I did. I sold the bike about 2 years ago and regret doing so. I miss that little bike. So to sum it up. Buy the SV650. It's a great motorcycle and awesome learning tool.

Hey Marcus, That is a good question. And you answered it. "Feeling" the squirm of the rear tire is a good indicator you are close to maxium grip for the tire at hand, however feeling the amount of grip available beyond the squirm is a fine skill possesed by the really, really, really, fast guys. IE AMA WSBK MotoGP guys. Check this out. http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=877 Also, you could try the slide bike available to level 4 and two day camp students. This will get you closer to that fine skill.