Hotfoot

Could you please expand on this, Hotfoot? (Yes, I agree with you about re-reading Twist II, I think it's essential that I stay current with that book.) Sure. You made the comment in your earlier post that you might want to delay your roll-on until you start your Pick-up, or slow or stop your roll-on in a turn with bumps. While I agree that you might want to delay your hard-throttle EXIT DRIVE in those situations, would you really want to delay your initial roll-on? Would delaying or halting your stabilizing roll-on help the bike's handling over the bumps? What does good throttle control do to the weight load on the front and rear tires, do you recall the weight distribution we are looking for? What does good throttle control do to the suspension?

I certainly agree that learning how to control the bike, and predict what it will do, is the best approach. Falling sucks and it costs money and possibly injury. YellowDuck, I completely understand that you'd ike a specific answer, drill, or solution to help you, instead of questions, but there is a lot TO your question! There are many things that can affect front tire grip, everything from technique to suspension setup to tire compound and temperature to road surface. Additionally, there are multiple triggers for the Survival Reactions that make us not "trust the tires"; it could be a "false feedback" problem from tension in your arms, a vision problem that results in an skewed sense of speed or lean angle, a technique problem with your chosen lines, even a suspension problem that prevents your tire from being in constant contact with the road. Something is telling you that you shouldn't lean over any farther; it could be real or it could be a perception problem, but just telling you to "quit worrying about it" is not likely to help much. At a school, the drills combined with a coach watching you and talking with you would rapidly identify the source of the problem and find a drill to solve it. But since that is not an easy option for you, Twist II is the next best bet - I see that you have ordered it already - and right on Page 3 is a description of the Survival Reactions and the things that most commonly trigger them. It may be that reading that one page will help you identify what is worrying you, and possibly even identify something (or things) that you are doing that are aggravating instead of improving the situation. Certainly the more you read, the more solutions you will find, and most of us have found that as our riding progresses and we encounter new barriers, we refer back to Twist again for more solutions. The forum group is a generous crowd and will try to help you, but it would require a bunch of questions to ferret out the source of your concern and suggest a drill to handle it; not to mention that we will need to try to explain the technique behind the drill itself. Reading Twist II will put you WAY ahead of the curve, and with that data in hand, the forum conversations can be much more productive!

A very profound question, Rain. Let's see now. 1. In a rear-end slide, it may be advisable to stop rolling on the gas (but not to roll it off). The motorcycle will slow down smoothly and gradually, and the slide will be corrected. 2. A double-apex turn should be treated practically as two separate turns, which means slowing down smoothly, even by rolling off the gas and straightening the bike before the second entry. 3. In top-gear, full-throttle turns there's no way to continue rolling on the gas simply because it's already open all the way. In that case, the necessary pull through the turn should be created by coming into the turn roughly 500 rpm lower than normal, and then when the motorcycle is leaned over, the rpm will pick up and the engine will pul the motorcycle through the turn. 4. In the crested turns, getting on the gas should be delayed until after the the bike "lands" after the crest, because it's already too high on the suspension, and getting on the gas too early may lift t even higher, which may result in the front wheel pop-up. It may even be necessary to roll off the gas slightly and smoothly, if the crest is really steep (in that case the motorcycle may still be accelerating even as the throttle is being rolled off). 5. If a motorcycle is leaned over to the extreme, the rider has to wait until the beginning of the Pick-Up to start rolling on the gas (this is not so much an exception, but rather a modification of the Golden Rule). 6. If there are bumps in the middle of the turn, the throttle roll-on may be slowed down or stopped temporarily till the end of the bumps. (No roll-off, though.) 7. A long downhill turn may require a brief delay in rolling on the throttle. 8. Changes in camber in the middle of the turn, or off-camber turn, may require a brief delay in rolling on the throttle. 9. A decreasing-radius turn may need a brief delay in the roll-on. 10. Any combination of all of the above may also require slowing down or temporarily stopping the roll-on. That seems to be it, even though I should confess that most of what I just wrote is pure theory to me, because I simply don't have enough track experience to encounter all of the described circumstances. I may have gotten some of it wrong, and I may have missed something. As always, an input from a more experienced and skillful rider would be much appreciated. Mugget, I hope you kept your text after you snipped it out, I would very much like to read it. If you have a copy of Twist II, you might want to go back and review the benefits of good throttle control, and see if you still think all these exceptions apply. Make sure you are not confusing a stabilizing roll-on with an exit drive.

Yep. Hook turn. It's a Level 3 technique, very handy.

Moving the brake point later can work (especially for racing) but it's a steep gradient, and can fire off a lot of SRs, including target locking on the turn point... and what does THAT do to your sense of speed? Cobie's recommendation to me some time ago was to move the braking RELEASE point earlier, instead of moving the brake point later. If you get OFF the brakes a little earlier each lap, that brings your entry speed up. Knowing you COULD stay on the brakes longer (if you really had to) helps avoid panic, and being off the brakes before the turn point helps focus your attention on entry speed instead of on braking. It maks a nice intermediate step between no-brakes and moving the brake point later.

I sure got a lot of practice on pickup drill tonight. Pick up clothes, pick up toys, pick up groceries... I don't think this is making me any faster.

Mugget and Brad covered a lot of good points, but one thing I remember Keith suggests in Twist is to try increasing your entry speed a little at a time, by coming in at a bit higher RPM the next lap. That, at least, is something you can feel and hear, so you aren't trying to look at the speedo; and if you DO need to look at your tach, hopefully it is highly visible so you can either see it in peripheral vision or glance at it (and process the info) more quickly than the speedo. That's the best way I know (maybe someone else has something better!) to judge/measure incremental increases in entry speed from lap to lap, on the fly. A data logger would help, but only after the fact, when you review the download! The OP, as I recall, has been through Level 1 at the school, which does have the no-brakes drill - but in Level 2 a number of other drills are introduced that can help tremendously with sense of speed. To give you an idea of the TYPE of skills they are, think about this: Which of your senses is the MOST important for judging your speed? If the flow of information you are getting is intermittent, choppy, or distorted, can that make judging your speed difficult? For those of you that have taken Level 2 or higher, what skill helped YOU the most with judging entry speed?

Is this 2-step visual technique used in actual racing or track days? I ask because, in Florida track days, I have seen a lot of "riding around the inside edge of the corner", especially in turns close to 180 degrees. Yes the 2-step visual technique is used in actual racing and track days. I think obviously it is not used by everyone. I'll generalize it this way: those who know the 2-step use it; those who don't know the 2-step, well they don't know what they don't know. Riding the inside edge also can be a method to protect your line so you don't get passed on the inside, although I suspect this is not the scenario most frequently seen at track days. On a very long 180 degree or more turn, there may be riders that figure the quickest way around the turn is to take the shortest path, which would be riding around the inside edge. On a low HP bike, if you are already entering the turn in top gear at full throttle, that might in fact be the best strategy! Which line is the best/fastest line can be an endless debate - every turn is different, and of course you must play to your own strengths and the characteristics of your particular bike. I think the main point here (talking about the 2-step) is that you make a PLAN, and follow it, instead of allowing your Survival Reactions to tell you when and where to turn. Yes, 2-Step is used in racing and track days. A more advanced rider might already be well capable of separating the actions of looking and turning, but 2-step is still utilized, most commonly to improve accuracy to the apex (which becomes more and more important as the pace comes up) or to correct a problem with vision getting hung up a little too long on something (brake marker, rough patch in the pavement, etc.), it helps the rider notice the visual lag and improve the timing of the look-in.

Welcome, glad you had a great time at Barber! As far as the name on the coach bike - Brian was probably just riding Lyle's bike that day. Lyle was doing video review, he was not on track. Part time coaches ride whatever bike is available. Hope to see you back for more schools!

Taking that thing on the track is like riding a Clydesdale in a steeplechase.

FYI, Turn points and 2-Step are Level 1 drills. Reference Points are not covered until Level 2. So, 2-Step is not explained using the Reference Point data. However, we do mark turn points on the track and you're correct that riders can get stuck on those; having the turn points marked helps correct the tendency to drift in early, but once they are there sometimes riders can get stuck staring at them - most commonly if they feel they are have come in too fast and are focusing on trying to get slowed down for that turn point. So we use 2-step to help them understand the timing of WHEN to let go of the turn point and look to the apex. Have you ever been on a road ride, where you came into a turn "too fast" and ended up staring at something you didn't want to hit? Like a guard rail, a point on the center line of the road, or the edge of the road? Would using 2-step to force yourself to look into the turn instead of staring at something straight ahead have helped you get around the turn? This is one way 2-step can be helpful on the street. 2-step is a vision technique. If you can't see, you can't really use it, can you? If you can't see the shape of the turn, you can't really choose an apex or turn point, you simply have to wait until you are far enough into the turn to see how it's shaped, and THEN you can choose your points and apply the 2-step. A new rider, unfamiliar with the 2-step, might find their eyes drawn to the inside of the corner, and unintentionally steer the bike there, and end up riding around the inside edge of the corner - not ideal, since it tightens the curve AND makes the visibility even worse. 2-step helps with this as well.

Could you judge this from how the bike is going down the road, or would you also have to see the face/head/eyes of the operator? At the school we use a camera mounted above and behind the rider, so you can see the rider's head and their steering action, so it is really easy to see it when a rider looks and turns at the same moment, instead of looking BEFORE they turn. If you couldn't see the rider's head, there are other indicators. For example, if the rider is just riding around a curve in the center of his lane, that would indicate he doesn't understand turn points - he is making no attempt to straighten out the turn, and is probably having to make a lot of steering corrections. Before you can tackle 2-step, the rider needs to be able to understand turn points and how to choose one. If the rider drifts into turns early, and ends up running wide on exits, that can indicate that he is not yet able to separate looking from turning, so when he looks into the turn he is also unintentionally steering the bike in; he needs to use 2-step to make sure he hits his chosen turn point before turning the bike. Another indicator is accuracy to the apex - assuming normal turns with good visibility, if the rider's lines never get near the apex of the turn, or if he appears to be very inconsistent with apexes, that would indicate a weakness in 2-step. Either the rider is not choosing an apex point or he is so late in looking at it that he can't get the bike there.

A coach watching a video of a student on an unknown road would watch to see that the rider looked in (at a chosen apex or midcorner point) BEFORE turning the bike. The two step is designed to separate looking in from turning in. If the rider looked into the turn and turned the bike simultaneously, or if the action of looking in caused him to start drifting into the turn, that would indicate that he is not using the two step.

When you say "punch" on the bars, that makes me wonder - are you making a jabbing motion at the bars? Quick turn requires a firm push on the bar, but not a punch - that can result in a wobble in the steering. At the school, check with your coach on exactly how you are executing your quick turn, that might uncover the source of the problem.

Streets of Willow also does not have the noise restrictions that Laguna has, and due to other logistics you can get a bit more time with your coach at Streets. Laguna is prettier, and more well-known, and has the corkscrew which is a fun thing to ride, but for overall training benefit it is hard to beat Streets of Willow.

OK, OK, I'll jump in. I'm at Barber in the midst of schools, working on an iPhone so I wont try to include any quotes! I laughed aloud at the descriptions of trying to follow faster riders. It's happened to me, too, of course, most memorably at Fontana. A guy ahead of me was going into Turn 1 faster than I had ever gone, and I thought -well, if he can do it, I can do it! But he didn't make it, he went straight off into a runoff area! Suddenly I had to decide whether to follow him off or turn. I made the turn (barely) but I definitely learned a lesson, you have to ride your own ride! We see it at the school, of course - a rider gets passed and then gets a little red mist going - but as everyone here seems to have learned, it can certainly fire up all sorts of SRs to suddenly find yourself entering a turn at Mach 10!

Yup, if the pickup is done too early in the corner, it can make you run wide. Congrats on all your excellent observations, I totally agree with you on the clutchless downshifts - some bikes are easier than others but once you get it, it's much quicker than using the clutch. Wow, a half minute improvement!! Well done.

Assuming you are talking about a race (not just a track day), I'd say: Do you have enough gas? Do you know your grid position, or have it written on your tank? Do you know the starting procedure? Then I'd check to make sure their gear was all set (helmet chinstrap fastened, leathers zipped, gloves on, etc.). If all looked good, I think I'd just say "good luck, and have fun!".

It's always a great goal to improve your riding; street riding has some inherent limitations, but that doesn't mean that there aren't skills that could help. I've been thinking about what you've said, and I wonder if the vanishing point idea could be having an undesired effect. Part of the purpose of using the vanishing point is to prevent target fixation, to get the rider's eyes up and looking through the turn. But on a very tight corner with really limited visibility, that vanishing point might be pretty close to you. Do you ever feel that watching the VP narrows down your field of view? Compare how you feel in that situation versus one other you mentioned - riding downhill where you can see the entire turn and more. Could that VP be taking TOO much of your attention, and affecting your wide view? Here's a quote from A Twist of the Wrist II that might be helpful: "While riding, every decision you make is governed by the amount of space you have, think you have, feel you have or believe you have." Level II of CSS is all about vision. One of the drills is Wide View (and guess what, it comes AFTER the VP drill...what do you know ) and it is all about opening up your vision, which really helps you judge entry speed, and choose turn points, and avoid early turn in and a host of other SRs. It's my favorite drill of all time because it made such a huge difference in my willingness to ride fast. Chapters 20 and 21 in Twist cover the concept very well. Here is another bit from Twist, approaching things from another angle: "Even though they want to, riders have lots of reasons for not going into turns quicker, e.g.: I didn't know the turn; I thought I would run wide; I would have to lean it over too far; there was traffic in the oncoming lane; and the usual, fear of losing traction as the ultimate bad result. While each of these seems like a separate, different reason, they all mean you doubted your ability to get it turned." That is from Chapter 17, all about steering, and one of the questions in the intro is this: "How many times have you noticed (at mid-turn) that your corner entry speed could have been higher?" This is about being able to quick turn the bike, and although I know you have already learned this technique, it is one that can be very useful in making you feel you have a larger safety margin, allowing a higher entry speed without triggering SRs. From what you've said before, it sounds like you are already using quick turn but it bears mentioning for the sake of others who are reading this, since, to quote the book again "Your quick turn abilities determine your corner entry speed. Period." The point here is that while you can't change the road, you may be able to change other things in your riding that could improve your confidence in entering those blind turns, giving you more certainty in choosing your turn point, how and where to steer the bike, and choosing a workable entry speed.

Maybe you are being too hard on yourself. Realistically, do you think it is possible, or safe, to really judge turn point and entry speed on a blind corner, before you can see the exit? Sure, once you can see the exit you might realize that you could have gone faster - but that is a much better situation than coming in too fast and flying off the side of a mountain! If you recall the Level 1 lecture on turn points, part of that lecture talks about choosing a turn point on an unfamiliar road - you just have to wait until you can see the characteristics of the turn before you can fully commit to it. Staying to the outside can help you see farther ahead, so you can see the shape of the turn sooner than you would from the inside. Riding blind twisty roads may mean you have to choose conservative entry speeds and very late turn points, but I think that is just part of riding unfamiliar roads. Watching the vanishing point can help - if the vanishing point appears to be getting closer to you, the turn is getting tighter, and if it appears to be going away from you, the turn is opening up. This can help with your throttle control mid-corner - if you can tell the turn is opening up, you may be able to roll on a bit, even though you can't see the exit. One of the really fun things about riding on a track is the repeatability of the turns, so that even for blind turns you learn from experience that you can enter faster - which is a thrill, since your EYES tell you it's dangerous so it feels scary. Plus you don't have to worry about there being a tree in the road, or a car, to surprise you at the exit!

If the other rider's bike is lighter weight and/or has better suspension or brakes, it is certainly possible that he can brake harder or later, and/or carry more entry speed than you. If you have started braking and he has not, the apparent difference in speed can be startling, even if he starts braking only a fraction later than you. With regard to technique, as Eirik said - if you are setting your entry speed for your initial turnpoint, in what sounds like a double-apex turn, you may be setting a lower entry speed than he is. He may be choosing to trail brake and scrub speed all the way to the second turnpoint, sacrificing mid corner speed in order to keep that straightaway speed longer - or maybe just for the purpose of passing you. This technique can be great for passing, but be aware that the margin for error gets really small - if you come charging into a turn, leaned over and trail braking, you really don't have room to adjust anything if you make an error - you can't squeeze the brake any harder for fear of overloading the front, you can't make steering corrections, etc. What is telling you that you are braking as hard as you can now? Is the rear end wagging, sliding, or lifting in the air? Is the front end vibrating or chattering? Have you put a zip tie on your front fork to see how much your suspension is compressing? Is there any chance you are bottoming out the front suspension? That can give a false sense of being at the braking limit - so can excessive front end dive. Being stiff in your arms can give false feedback, too, and adds more weight to the front than necessary.

Ok, good answers. First let me correct a possible misconception, based on your first post: I don't think it is realistic to think that racers find the traction limit, look at the speedo, then memorize the perfect entry speed. For one thing, I ride a purpose-built race bike, and it doesn't HAVE a speedo, and was never designed to have one. And, as someone else said before, looking down at the instruments at turn entry is not practical, it interrupts your visual flow and you would be forced to slow down considerably to accomplish it. Also conditions change, lap to lap - my tires may have considerably less grip at the end of a race compared to the beginning, or a competitor may have forced me to use a different turn point - which means a different entry speed. Judging entry speed is an art, your question is quite broad, so let's see if we can narrow it down, to see what problem you are trying to solve, or what barrier you are encountering: 1) if you just look where you are going and ride the turn based on your own sense of speed (without looking at the speedo), what happens? Do you make errors, trigger SRs, feel like you could / should have gone faster? 2) if you make errors (running wide, making more than one steering input, sliding a tire, etc.) what specifically are they? 3) if you trigger an SR, which one is it? (There can be more than one!) You can find a list of SRs, and resultant errors, on p3 of Twist II. 4) are you comfortable and riding without errors, but just want to increase entry speed? 5) are you concerned about your ability to judge entry speed, feel like you are not precise, consistent or accurate? I'm trying to get a handle on what specifically is causing the uncertainty about entry speed, because it is something you need to be able to choose for yourself, on every turn you ride. If it is something NOT covered in the questions above, just let me know.

BLSJDS makes great points. Let me ask you some questions, to help you sort through this: 1) Is there one ideal entry speed for each turn, that will work for every rider, on any type of bike? Or is entry speed an individual thing, dependent on your bike, setup, skill level, the day's conditions, etc.? 2) Have you ever entered a turn at a speed that triggered one or more of the survival reactions listed on page 3 of A Twist of the Wrist II? 3) If you wanted to enter a turn faster (at the track, where you get to ride that turn repeatedly), would you want to make BIG increases on each lap or small, incremental ones, as you experiment with it? 4) Could looking down at the speedometer when entering a turn interrupt your visual flow? How would that affect your sense of speed, and your comfort level entering the turn? Have you ever been looking down at the dash of your car (or at your phone!) and then looked up to see a car stopped in front of you? Did that momentarily mess up your perception of how fast you were approaching that car? 5) if you DID enter a turn slightly (not dramatically) too fast, are there any indicators that could tell you that your entry speed was too high? 6) Would greater confidence about where the bike is going to go, and in your ability to steer it effectively, help you increase your entry speeds? Regarding how control riders judge entry speeds while leading, I'll hazard a guess that they probably start at a speed that they believe is comfortable for any street rider, and then very gradually increase the speed until riders start to drop back a bit or their riding starts to look ragged (running wide, over braking, late on the throttle, etc.) I've definitely seen control riders at track days lead riders too fast on sighting laps.

Oh, its totally worth it when you pass the big bikes in the corners. On tight tracks like Streets of Willow the bigger bikes don't really have places to blow by you like that video. Gorecki is right, 250 racing is GREAT, lots of fun, cheaper, very competitive, and in my experience the people are very cool.

+1 on that, and here's another warning, when I took CSS Level 1, I was NOT a serious rider, not by a long shot, and look what happened to me! Now I have a budget specifically for track days and racing... and an S1000rr in the garage!