Pivot Steering

[ikonoklass]

Is this technique taught at school, or has it been subsumed by another technique? Thanks in advance. As much as I savor every minute of summer, I can't wait until November for Levels III and IV!! Yee haa!!

[2bigalow]

Yes, level 3.

[Cobie Fair]

Is this technique taught at school, or has it been subsumed by another technique? Thanks in advance. As much as I savor every minute of summer, I can't wait until November for Levels III and IV!! Yee haa!!

 

"Subsume" good word, had to look that one up, had no idea what it meant.

[Jaybird180]

What's Pivot Steering?

[Kevin Kane]

What's Pivot Steering?

It's a technique taught in Level 3 that allows you to tightens up your line through a corner.

 

Kevin

[racer]

What's Pivot Steering?

 

Chapter 19 of Twist of the Wrist II is devoted to the concept of what Keith calls "pivot points" and Pivot Steering.

 

The pivot steering technique is about efficiency.

In a nutshell, a pivot point is the point on the bike where you anchor yourself to push/pull on the handlebar(s) to intiate a turn.

 

Consider that the faster you go, the more force or effort it takes at the handlebar to change direction. And, at any speed, a "quick flick" requires a stronger push/pull than a lazy slow turn. So, what anchor or "pivot point" on the bike will enable the most stable and efficient (forceful) push/pull on the bars?

 

Hint: A similar action would be a boxer punching an opponent. Where does a boxer's punch begin?

 

racer

[racer]

@ Jaybird, ikonoklass, et al:

 

Here is the link to purchase the Twist of the Wrist books, video/DVD's and CD's right here on this website:

 

https://secure.echoalley.com/superbikeschool/store/

 

It is understandable that not everyone can afford the time and money to attend a superbike school session; but, anyone can afford $20 and there is no excuse for not taking some responsibility for your own riding education.

 

Just imagine how cool it would be if everyone here already had a handle on the basic fundamental concepts presented in the books so we could all engage in really interesting, meaningful and valuable discussions together about how to apply them, instead of long term members asking the same old questions because we haven't even made the effort to read the books.

 

C'mon guys. This is getting boring. It's not my job to read the Twist of the Wrist books for you. Demonstrate that you are serious about learning to ride and order the Twist of the Wrist books so we can move this game to the next level and have some real fun here!

 

/rant

 

Sincerely,

racer

 

 

PS - To anyone who intends to take the school: I cannot emphasize this enough... you will benefit at least ten times more from the experience (and return on your investment!) if you have already read the books before you show up to ride! Now stop procrastinating, click on the bloody link and order your school books and DVD's!

 

Do it now! There is no other time!

[acebobby]

I like Ithat racer, stop procastinating but doesn't everyone procastinate on a daily basis about something or other?

so then you can get what you want, a discussion on every ones take on the contents of the books! thats a great idea and will be of great help to me while learning the art of cornering , so since we are in the pivot steering thread then what better place to begin!

I have 2 questions for you!

1 Where does a boxers punch begin?

2 What is your interpretation of chapter 19 of TOTW2 and how do you put it into practice?

 

atb

Bobby

[Cobie Fair]

Just to clear up one point that Kevin brought up earlier (I believe he was referring to "Hook Turn"). Hook turn is how one can use one's body to affect the bike well, or adversly, wi/out using the bars.

 

Level 3 goes into serious detail on the different aspects of the bike/rider relationship. Both of these subjects, Hook Turn and Pivot Steering, are gone over in detail and also other techniques.

 

There isn't as much on Hook Turns in Twist 2, but there will be more to see in the new TWIST 2 DVD. Man, I know I've said it, but can't wait for that darn thing to get done.

[racer]

I like Ithat racer, stop procastinating but doesn't everyone procastinate on a daily basis about something or other?

so then you can get what you want, a discussion on every ones take on the contents of the books! thats a great idea and will be of great help to me while learning the art of cornering , so since we are in the pivot steering thread then what better place to begin!

I have 2 questions for you!

1 Where does a boxers punch begin?

2 What is your interpretation of chapter 19 of TOTW2 and how do you put it into practice?

 

atb

Bobby

 

Hi acebobby,

 

It isn't what "I want", it's what I believe will be most helpful and effective for you, yours and everyone's education, including my own. I've committed hundreds of thousands of dollars and dedicated decades of my life to my own motorcycle riding education. In the interest of you not having to do the same, I will be happy to share that with you if you are willing to demonstrate the slightest degree of commitment. When you have read Chapter 19 of Twist of the Wrist II, I will be glad to share my perspective on any specific points you have questions about.

 

As for the boxer, I suppose the least amount of effort you could put forth would be to Google "boxing technique" and let us know what you find.

 

Cheers,

racer

 

 

PS - I don't think everyone procastinates about something on a daily basis. In any case, it's your education. Procrastinate all you want. You will learn as fast or as slow as you choose and get out of it as much as you put into it.

[racer]

*

[Kevin Kane]

Just to clear up one point that Kevin brought up earlier (I believe he was referring to "Hook Turn"). Hook turn is how one can use one's body to affect the bike well, or adversly, wi/out using the bars.

My Bad Cobie...I need to retake level 3.

Kevin

[Cobie Fair]

*

 

Hey Racer--does the "*" mean something here...?

 

Cobie

[Jaybird180]

Glad I fired up this discussion:

Racer- I agree with you that people should take responsibility for their own education. Nuff said about that

 

Regarding T2, I read a thread posted by Mr. Code where he says that when he wrote T2 he didn't have the best understanding about the concept of pivot steering and promised to update it in Twist 3. That was in 2003.

 

OFF TOPIC:

Cobie, et al

My only Code posessions are the Twist 1 DVD. What would be the best investment in study material for me? (I own other publications too, so I do read) Should I wait until the T2 DVD comes out and purchase it and risk redundancy by purchasing it AND the T2 book? Or do they not cove the same information?

 

---- I suppose for that matter I could ask the same question about T1 Book vs DVD--- (hey I did, but never got an answer)

 

PS- Cobie, you're in the T1 DVD credits, but I can't spot you. Where are you?

[Cobie Fair]

Glad I fired up this discussion:

Racer- I agree with you that people should take responsibility for their own education. Nuff said about that

 

Regarding T2, I read a thread posted by Mr. Code where he says that when he wrote T2 he didn't have the best understanding about the concept of pivot steering and promised to update it in Twist 3. That was in 2003.

 

OFF TOPIC:

Cobie, et al

My only Code posessions are the Twist 1 DVD. What would be the best investment in study material for me? (I own other publications too, so I do read) Should I wait until the T2 DVD comes out and purchase it and risk redundancy by purchasing it AND the T2 book? Or do they not cove the same information?

 

---- I suppose for that matter I could ask the same question about T1 Book vs DVD--- (hey I did, but never got an answer)

 

PS- Cobie, you're in the T1 DVD credits, but I can't spot you. Where are you?

 

Hi Jaybird,

 

I like the T-1 DVD (the new T-2 is gonna rock), but they don't have all the info that is in the books. So, the books are my mainstays. One point are the comments by Eddie Lawson, Wayne Rainey, and Doug Chandler. Seeing what they have to say is a nice addition.

 

I worked as a rider, some stuff on the cruiser, a shot where I nearly hit the car (which was coming around a righthander), some of the group shots, one of the slow-mo shots. Might be more, but that's what I recall off the cuff.

[Cobie Fair]

Glad I fired up this discussion:

Racer- I agree with you that people should take responsibility for their own education. Nuff said about that

 

Regarding T2, I read a thread posted by Mr. Code where he says that when he wrote T2 he didn't have the best understanding about the concept of pivot steering and promised to update it in Twist 3. That was in 2003.

 

OFF TOPIC:

Cobie, et al

My only Code posessions are the Twist 1 DVD. What would be the best investment in study material for me? (I own other publications too, so I do read) Should I wait until the T2 DVD comes out and purchase it and risk redundancy by purchasing it AND the T2 book? Or do they not cove the same information?

 

---- I suppose for that matter I could ask the same question about T1 Book vs DVD--- (hey I did, but never got an answer)

 

PS- Cobie, you're in the T1 DVD credits, but I can't spot you. Where are you?

 

Hi Jaybird,

 

I like the T-1 DVD (the new T-2 is gonna rock), but they don't have all the info that is in the books. So, the books are my mainstays. One point are the comments by Eddie Lawson, Wayne Rainey, and Doug Chandler. Seeing what they have to say is a nice addition.

 

In T-1 I worked as a rider, some stuff on the cruiser, a shot where I nearly hit the car (which was coming around a righthander), some of the group shots, one of the slow-mo shots. Might be more, but that's what I recall off the cuff.

[racer]

*

 

Hey Racer--does the "*" mean something here...?

 

Cobie

 

It means I wrote something and changed my mind about posting it after the fact. (Nothing bad, just wanted to think more about it.) Since you can't delete the post itself after the fact, I used the asterick to fill the space.

 

What I wrote was a mission statement clarification of sorts that was essentially redundant. Unfortunately I forgot to save it and lost it. It was a decent piece of writing and I would have liked you and Keith to read it, it just didn't really belong in this thread. Perhaps your admin can go dumpster diving or someone with better computer skills than mine can find it or tell me how to find it again.

[racer]

Ok, back on topic again.

 

Another athlete for whom pivot points are critical is a baseball player when throwing (pitching) or hitting the ball. It's the same deal.

 

Where does the pitcher's throw begin? The arm? The shoulder? The wind up?

 

Where does a batter's swing start? With the bat? The elbow? Does the batter wind up sort of like the pitcher does? Does his torso contribute to the force of the swing?

[Red Duke Rider]

My 2 cents worth on pivot steering:

 

I think Chapter 19 of Twist 2 is probably some of the most profound words KC has ever written. You probably won't get it the first time you read it, or not even the second. You may have to read it 4 or 5 times for it to sink in. Once it sinks in and you figure it out, it is as revolutionary a concept as counter steering is the first time you figure it out.

 

Case in point: I read Twist 2 many times before I figured out what KC was trying to say (nobody said I was a fast learner). I own a basement full of bikes and just so happened to be on my Goldwing (of all things) one day and thought I would give the "Pivot or Cross Steering" a try. I tried it in a left hand turn. The bike flicked over so fast, so hard, I just about dislocated my left hip when my folding peg hit the pavement with such force and drove my thigh up into my hip. Conscious counter steering combined with conscious Pivot or Cross Steering will turn a bike so fast and so effortlessly it's unbelieveable.

 

I have learned from Chapter 19 that I don't like to use the term of "weighting the pegs". What you're actually doing is pushing against one peg opposite the handlebar end you're pushing.

 

A good example for you to think about. Some people say you should weight the inside peg and use a light touch on the handlebars. Do this experiment. Put your bike on a stand, remove the right peg, cross your arms across your chest, and see how much effort it takes to shift your body to the left. It can't be done without a lot of scooting around on the seat which would certainly upset the bike. Now put the peg back on, sit back on the bike with your arms crossed across your chest (i.e. simulating an extremely light touch on the bars). Shift your weight from side to side. See which peg you're pushing against when you move side to side. You push against the right peg to move left, push against the left peg to move right.

 

Again, my 2 cents. I could be wrong.

[Jaybird180]

My 2 cents worth on pivot steering:

 

I think Chapter 19 of Twist 2 is probably some of the most profound words KC has ever written. You probably won't get it the first time you read it, or not even the second. You may have to read it 4 or 5 times for it to sink in. Once it sinks in and you figure it out, it is as revolutionary a concept as counter steering is the first time you figure it out.

 

Case in point: I read Twist 2 many times before I figured out what KC was trying to say (nobody said I was a fast learner). I own a basement full of bikes and just so happened to be on my Goldwing (of all things) one day and thought I would give the "Pivot or Cross Steering" a try. I tried it in a left hand turn. The bike flicked over so fast, so hard, I just about dislocated my left hip when my folding peg hit the pavement with such force and drove my thigh up into my hip. Conscious counter steering combined with conscious Pivot or Cross Steering will turn a bike so fast and so effortlessly it's unbelieveable.

 

I have learned from Chapter 19 that I don't like to use the term of "weighting the pegs". What you're actually doing is pushing against one peg opposite the handlebar end you're pushing.

 

A good example for you to think about. Some people say you should weight the inside peg and use a light touch on the handlebars. Do this experiment. Put your bike on a stand, remove the right peg, cross your arms across your chest, and see how much effort it takes to shift your body to the left. It can't be done without a lot of scooting around on the seat which would certainly upset the bike. Now put the peg back on, sit back on the bike with your arms crossed across your chest (i.e. simulating an extremely light touch on the bars). Shift your weight from side to side. See which peg you're pushing against when you move side to side. You push against the right peg to move left, push against the left peg to move right.

 

Again, my 2 cents. I could be wrong.

Prelude: Forgive my uniformed writing as I'm on my first read of T2, now at Ch 14.

 

With that said, I think that is the reason the body position should be set prior to approaching the turn. It upsets the bike to do it midcorner or while cornering (which I think I saw Corona Honda rider Jake Holden doing, not sure). But also doing it early in the last part of the straight, leading to the turn is not without penalty too as one has to countersteer to counter the effects of the uneven weight, which under race conditions would contribute to front tire wear.

 

Personally, I'm waiting for Twist3 to get further into the science of pivot steering as Mr. KC himself expressed desire to update that chapter's content.

 

In my meager experience when in the turn, fully cranked over and on the gas, it has helped to consciously focus on putting pressure on the inside peg. Getting to the outside peg to stand the bike up has been a no go for me. I have yet to experience slamming a bike over with foot pressure, which would seem to me to give results counter to what KC was trying to prove with his NO BS Bike.

[ikonoklass]

@ Jaybird, ikonoklass, et al:

 

Here is the link to purchase the Twist of the Wrist books, video/DVD's and CD's right here on this website:

 

https://secure.echoalley.com/superbikeschool/store/

 

It is understandable that not everyone can afford the time and money to attend a superbike school session; but, anyone can afford $20 and there is no excuse for not taking some responsibility for your own riding education.

 

Just imagine how cool it would be if everyone here already had a handle on the basic fundamental concepts presented in the books so we could all engage in really interesting, meaningful and valuable discussions together about how to apply them, instead of long term members asking the same old questions because we haven't even made the effort to read the books.

 

C'mon guys. This is getting boring. It's not my job to read the Twist of the Wrist books for you. Demonstrate that you are serious about learning to ride and order the Twist of the Wrist books so we can move this game to the next level and have some real fun here!

 

/rant

 

Sincerely,

racer

 

 

PS - To anyone who intends to take the school: I cannot emphasize this enough... you will benefit at least ten times more from the experience (and return on your investment!) if you have already read the books before you show up to ride! Now stop procrastinating, click on the bloody link and order your school books and DVD's!

 

Do it now! There is no other time!

 

Actually, I own and have read (multiple times) TotW I&II, as well as many other books on the topic of riding technique. I asked whether it was taught in Level III, not what it was. You ignorant buffoon.

[racer]

ikonoklass,

 

My post of a month ago was addressed to everyone in the thread.* It was not my intention to single you out nor to accuse or imply that you had not read the material in question. Nonetheless, my apologies for including your name in the address and for any insult you may have taken from it.

 

Aside, since you know "what it is", perhaps you will be kind enough to enlighten the other members who don't.

 

Cheers,

 

racer

 

 

* et al. is a commonly used abbreviation for the Latin phrase et alii meaning: "and others".

[ikonoklass]

ikonoklass,

 

My post of a month ago was addressed to everyone in the thread.* It was not my intention to single you out nor to accuse or imply that you had not read the material in question. Nonetheless, my apologies for including your name in the address and for any insult you may have taken from it.

 

Aside, since you know "what it is", perhaps you will be kind enough to enlighten the other members who don't.

 

Cheers,

 

racer

 

 

* et al. is a commonly used abbreviation for the Latin phrase et alii meaning: "and others".

 

LOL No worries. I'm afraid the project I'm working on has made me a little testy.

[Red Duke Rider]

To all regarding Pivot Steering:

 

Another excellent and more up to date read on the matter is found in "Performance Riding Techniques: The MotoGP manual of track riding skills". This is a hard bound book written by Andy Ibbott and Keith Code. Andy Ibbott is Keith's "disciple" in Europe. From what I've been able to gather, he runs Keith's European operation(s).

 

Andy and Keith both elaborate on peg weighting - which one to weight and which one not too. The book is one of the best bargains I have seen in a while. It has some excellent photography, it's hard back, and it's only $19.95 at Amazon.com.

 

Keith does an individual prologue in the book on setting up your suspension.

 

The book has some absolutley stunning photography. One picture that sticks out in my mind is the pass Rossi made on Gibernau a few years back when Rossi stuffed Gibernau big time. The photograph actually consists of an overlay of 6 or 7 photographs all taken from the same point showing how the pass was made in sequence.

 

Maybe this book should be called Twist of the Wrist 2 1/2. Great book. Lots of detailed pics of MotoGP bikes and how they're set up. A photo of Hayden's bike directly over Pedrosa's bike so you can see all of the differences.

 

Can't say enough good about the book. I can say that from what Ibbott and Code have written in the book, the MotoGP guys aren't putting all their weight on the inside peg.

 

Going back to the Pivot Steering or Cross Steering discussion: Issac Newton or one of those early science wizards said that "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction". The action of pushing on the left handlebar to turn left is reacted by your right foot pressing against the right peg.

 

More and more I've got where I don't like the term or concept of peg weighting. In reality, it's peg pushing. Which peg are you pushing against for a given turn.

[racer]

Hi guys,

 

I've never quite understood Keith's explanation for calling it a "pivot" point, but, in the sense that it is a fixed point and your body moves, I suppose it is an accurate description. I tend to think of a pivot as a point or axis about which something else rotates or pivots. Anyway...

 

The way I explain or describe the concept is that it is "pushing off of" or "pushing against" something solid with one part of your body to push against something else with another part of your body enabling you to use the strength of your entire body in the process. In this case, it's about using the strength of your entire body to push against the handlebar rather than using just your arm. It means the effort to push on the handlebar literally begins in the sole of your opposite boot anchored against the footpeg in the same way that a boxer's punch begins in his feet or a batter's swing starts in his cleats so they can utilize the strength of their entire bodies in the effort. When a martial artist hits or kicks, they put their entire body behind the effort. It's like the old expression, "putting your weight into it" or "behind it". Granted there is a rotational or "whip" element for the other sports examples I mentioned that isn't really included for us, but, the main idea is the same.

 

So, in a nutshell, if you want to quickly counter-steer the bike to the left at speed, you literally push off the right footpeg, using the strength of your entire body, to apply pressure to the left handlebar.

 

racer