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Avoiding Highsides


Jaybird180
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Okay, a confession: I've crashed every way possible except highside. I'd like to avoid it , but considering that it's on my mind I'm probably creating the situation by my focus.

 

Now that's out of the way, I've noticed that I can get on the gas while at full lean and feel for traction, being aware of not breaking the tire loose.

 

What's the proper use of throttle if I were to experience breaking the rear loose at full lean?

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Okay, a confession: I've crashed every way possible except highside. I'd like to avoid it , but considering that it's on my mind I'm probably creating the situation by my focus.

 

Now that's out of the way, I've noticed that I can get on the gas while at full lean and feel for traction, being aware of not breaking the tire loose.

 

What's the proper use of throttle if I were to experience breaking the rear loose at full lean?

 

 

 

I would say that this is a question but answered by Cobie! But if you think about a few things im sure you could figure it out own you own fairly well. What would happen if you shut the throttle off all the way? Low side from losing speed/transfering too much weight to the front end? High side from the bike standing straight up? Obviously you want to stay between the two, right? I have had this happend once on the track and a few times on the street and I have been able to back off the throttle enough to maintain the slide till I was able to bring the bike up and out of the turn. If you stay on the throttle it will continue to slide, so, from my own conclusion you need to back off enough to control the slide w/out it increasing, and w/out loading the front or high siding. Im interested to hear what others have to say about this as well!

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I back off the throttle a little, and when I feel that the bike is starting to straighten, get my butt a bit off the seat.

I've seen it on races, and it seems to be the answer. I was trying to keep pace with an instructor (didn't happen), and we went into turn 10 on Firebird East. HARD right with some really gnarly pavement. I watched him save a slide by doing what I've described above. We were coming out of turn 3, and the same thing happened to me. There is a little seem at the apex, and it jolted my rear tire. I did the same thing he did, and even though one of my feet came off the peg when the bike straightened up, I stayed on the bike and continued my trackday.

I would love to hear from a more experienced rider the proper technique.

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A highside is when the rear tire loses grip, normally under acceleration coming out of a corner, and suddenly regains traction. It causes a compression in the rear shock, along with the tires being out of normal position changing the angle of the motorcycle, with a quick release pushing the seat, and the rider, up forcefully. Since you're weight is already forward, and your back end is over the point of launch, it flips you over.

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A highside is when the rear tire loses grip, normally under acceleration coming out of a corner, and suddenly regains traction. It causes a compression in the rear shock, along with the tires being out of normal position changing the angle of the motorcycle, with a quick release pushing the seat, and the rider, up forcefully. Since you're weight is already forward, and your back end is over the point of launch, it flips you over.

 

Decent description for sure. The key is the sudden snapping back, sudden regaining traction. That is where bike and rider often part ways.

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A highside is when the rear tire loses grip, normally under acceleration coming out of a corner, and suddenly regains traction. It causes a compression in the rear shock, along with the tires being out of normal position changing the angle of the motorcycle, with a quick release pushing the seat, and the rider, up forcefully. Since you're weight is already forward, and your back end is over the point of launch, it flips you over.

 

Decent description for sure. The key is the sudden snapping back, sudden regaining traction. That is where bike and rider often part ways.

 

 

Cobie,

 

So then the way to keep from high siding when the rear slides is to keep the rear from sliding more, and keep it from regaining traction. Basically you have to control the slide untill you are able to come out of the turn and slowly get the traction back to the tire. Right?

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Cobie,

 

So then the way to keep from high siding when the rear slides is to keep the rear from sliding more, and keep it from regaining traction. Basically you have to control the slide untill you are able to come out of the turn and slowly get the traction back to the tire. Right?

 

Derek,

 

Don't want to quite Keith's whole book but check out page 15 in Twist 2.

 

CF

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  • 4 weeks later...

What about practicing the pick up drill, would this not help regain traction smoothly?

Afew of you are saying to lightly back off the throttle but doing that goes against throttle rule no 1 so to me thats not an option, if the tyre never regained traction you would end up going down in a lowside which would be better than a highside.

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What about practicing the pick up drill, would this not help regain traction smoothly?

Afew of you are saying to lightly back off the throttle but doing that goes against throttle rule no 1 so to me thats not an option, if the tyre never regained traction you would end up going down in a lowside which would be better than a highside.

What's the pickup drill?

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What about practicing the pick up drill, would this not help regain traction smoothly?

Afew of you are saying to lightly back off the throttle but doing that goes against throttle rule no 1 so to me thats not an option, if the tyre never regained traction you would end up going down in a lowside which would be better than a highside.

I think once your back tire is sliding out from under you, throttle rule #1 has gone out the window. Whether or not the bike is going to buck you off or not is up to you for a brief instant, but when you watch people get in that position, the bike shutters regardless because your tires are out of line, and it's straightening itself out. Yes, you will lowside if you keep up throttle rule #1, but having done all 3, I will say that I prefer saving the bike over the other two options.

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What about practicing the pick up drill, would this not help regain traction smoothly?

Afew of you are saying to lightly back off the throttle but doing that goes against throttle rule no 1 so to me thats not an option, if the tyre never regained traction you would end up going down in a lowside which would be better than a highside.

I think once your back tire is sliding out from under you, throttle rule #1 has gone out the window. Whether or not the bike is going to buck you off or not is up to you for a brief instant, but when you watch people get in that position, the bike shutters regardless because your tires are out of line, and it's straightening itself out. Yes, you will lowside if you keep up throttle rule #1, but having done all 3, I will say that I prefer saving the bike over the other two options.

 

 

Maybe I should have said it a bit differently. I wasn't tryin to say that you should cut off all throttle. If you already gave it too much throttle, which caused the rear end slide, what happens if you continue applyin that amount of throttle?

 

On the other hand, what happens if you shut off the throttle? Where would the weight be?

 

If you shut off the throttle after inducing the rear end slide by applyin too much throttle, you would have violated the throttle rule altogether, right?

 

The key is to get the bike to slow gradually.

 

To give yourself the best chance at avoiding a highside, wouldn't it make sense to just stop rolling on the throttle?

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One thing that I think should be said re: the original post.

 

The OP it talking about a slide that happens at FULL LEAN.

 

Just FYI it is probably not a real good idea to be pushing the limits of rear traction at full lean.

 

At full lean you are on a much finer edge and if the rear does slide it might come around faster then you would like. I found this out the hard way earlier this year.

 

At full lean you best catch the slide very early, or else... weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

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One thing that I think should be said re: the original post.

 

The OP it talking about a slide that happens at FULL LEAN.

 

Just FYI it is probably not a real good idea to be pushing the limits of rear traction at full lean.

 

At full lean you are on a much finer edge and if the rear does slide it might come around faster then you would like. I found this out the hard way earlier this year.

 

At full lean you best catch the slide very early, or else... weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

 

 

Stuman,

 

I am talking about at full lean. You say that you need to catch the slide very early, and I couldn't agree more. But what do you do to keep it from going, weeeeeeeeeee, or highsiding? Haha... i like the weeeeeeeeee.

 

And I too know how fast it can happen at full lean. At VIR two years ago I had it to go so fast i saw smoke to my left on a left hand turn. I was able to manage it but, it was luck and not skill, because I didn't have great throttle control at that time. Im still working on it actually.

 

I would have to say that most people aren't real concerned about a slide unless they are at full lean, or whatever that person maxium comfort lean angle is. I posted above what I believe through studyin, twist 2, what should be done. Not to get smart w/ you, but what do you believe should be done at full lean if a slide occurs?

 

Doesn't the art of cornering get to pushing the limits of traction at full lean at some point or another? Don't we all want to find where that limit is so we can avoid abusing it? Maybe we should go to the section that Cobie or Keith has on "bands of traction" to further the discusion of traction.... i don't know.

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Derek My comments were not directed at you, just coments about the topic in general.

 

 

It is a difficult question to answer as "the right thing to do" might vary from situation to situation.

 

Certinly if you are at full lean and the back comes around because you gave it too much gas, it would be a REAL BAD idea to keep rolling on.

 

If you can react and catch the slide early enoough the best thing to do woudl be to stop rolling on or even roll out a little. Picking the bike up into the slide is great but not to many people react that way.

 

However if the slide comes to quickly and goes too far before you can catch it, rolling off would be a real bad idea ... Weeeeeeeee

 

Sometimes your best option is to stay in it and hope that you can ride it out or lowside rather then highside.

 

 

 

As for pushing the limits of traction at full lean, well I suppose if your looking for those last 10ths of a second you might find something there. However, your band of traction is rather narrow when your dragging the pegs. I'd rather seach for the limits of traction after the apex once I start to stand the bike up a little :)

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If you're highsiding at full lean, you've really got to work on TC rule #1. That would usually result in a lowside. Highsides generally occur once you're past your apex and coming out of your lean. Is that what you're talking about regarding TC rule #1 and highsiding? Change in elevation will also effect this if you're not accomidating for it coming out of a corner.

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After giving it some thought maybe this post should be named differently, avoiding highsides, avoiding crashing all together is easy, quit riding bikes and take up a nice safe hobby. Everyone on this forum has one thing in common, although none of us want to crash, something inside us all likes the buzz, the danger of doing what we do! The fact that every one of us will drive at over 100 mph with 18 litres of highly flammable liquid an inch away from our groin basically makes you a bit of a risk taker.

 

Getting educated on the main cause of highsides is key,getting greedy with the throttle on exit causing the rear to spin, panic, chop the throttle = highside, TC #1 is the best option! In pro racing they will pin the gas, point the bike down the track, regain traction usually resulting in a bit of a wheelie!

 

I believe that if the rear breks away at full lean the rules still apply!

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I believe that if the rear breks away at full lean the rules still apply!

 

 

 

Ace,

 

Exactly... I feel the same way! Just check it out in Twist 2 if you don't agree. Page 15.

That's just it. TR rule #1 "once the throttle is cracked on, it s rolled on smoothly, evenly, and constantly throughout the remainder of the turn."

Page 15 says that you need to "stop rolling on the gas" if you lose rear traction. Doesn't that mean that TR rule #1 stops being applicable?

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Sorry for the double post, don't know how to get rid of it.

 

Hubbard,

 

I get what you are saying. Yes, if you have to stop rolling on the throttle that would mean you have failed TR #1. But if you induced the rear end slide by applying too much throttle already, you would have failed at TR #1 already.

 

However, not chopping the throttle off is also a huge part of throttle control. You must maintain good throttle control after the slide has started to keep from highsiding.

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OK so I went over page 15 in TOTW2

Stop rolling on, I guess that wherever you are in the throttle position, you hold it there until the rear wheel regains traction, at which point you would continue your roll on throughout the remainder of the turn! Is this correct?

I can see that SR #1 would be hard to overcome in this situation and as you felt the rear come round more it could become very tempting to chop the throttle, the way I have gotten around SR #1 is by continually practicing TC rule #1 so this would be new to me!

Also worth checking page 9 of TOTW2!

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OK so I went over page 15 in TOTW2

Stop rolling on, I guess that wherever you are in the throttle position, you hold it there until the rear wheel regains traction, at which point you would continue your roll on throughout the remainder of the turn! Is this correct?

Yes...and you are now armed with critical new information that will allow you to get back on the throttle - you know where the limit of traction is for that corner/angle/speed/ etc.

 

I can see that SR #1 would be hard to overcome in this situation and as you felt the rear come round more it could become very tempting to chop the throttle, the way I have gotten around SR #1 is by continually practicing TC rule #1 so this would be new to me!

Also worth checking page 9 of TOTW2!

From my experience, having the "book knowledge" of not chopping the throttle has allowed me to regain traction quickly and on to the next corner. It was so ingrained in my Level I course and from reading the Twist that it was almost second nature to hold the thottle steady until grip returned. Now I don't even think about it.

 

Kevin

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OK so I went over page 15 in TOTW2

Stop rolling on, I guess that wherever you are in the throttle position, you hold it there until the rear wheel regains traction, at which point you would continue your roll on throughout the remainder of the turn! Is this correct?

Yes...and you are now armed with critical new information that will allow you to get back on the throttle - you know where the limit of traction is for that corner/angle/speed/ etc.

 

I can see that SR #1 would be hard to overcome in this situation and as you felt the rear come round more it could become very tempting to chop the throttle, the way I have gotten around SR #1 is by continually practicing TC rule #1 so this would be new to me!

Also worth checking page 9 of TOTW2!

From my experience, having the "book knowledge" of not chopping the throttle has allowed me to regain traction quickly and on to the next corner. It was so ingrained in my Level I course and from reading the Twist that it was almost second nature to hold the thottle steady until grip returned. Now I don't even think about it.

 

Kevin

 

 

Thanks Kevin I will work on holding a steady throttle in future, over the last year I have retrained myself to obey TC rule #1 which in turn has made the idea of chopping the throttle a big no no for me too!

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