Backing It In...

[TeamGreenZX10]

Quick Question, how does one back it into a corner, i heard somewhere that this is only really used in racing applications for really tight turns so that you can make the pass by getting on the brakes later and get the bike started turning in before the turn in point. i was wondering what you all thought...AND how exactly does one perform this technique.

[racer]

By lightly dragging the rear brake to slow the rear wheel enough to break traction as you approach the corner. NOT enough to lock it, just enough to slow it down a tad. It was all the rage for awhile back in the mid-1990's but very few road racers still do it.

[TeamGreenZX10]

By lightly dragging the rear brake to slow the rear wheel enough to break traction as you approach the corner. NOT enough to lock it, just enough to slow it down a tad. It was all the rage for awhile back in the mid-1990's but very few road racers still do it.

 

 

Will it chirp the rear a bit...i was pretty sure when i hear people do it the back end chirps a bit

[Jaybird180]

By lightly dragging the rear brake to slow the rear wheel enough to break traction as you approach the corner. NOT enough to lock it, just enough to slow it down a tad. It was all the rage for awhile back in the mid-1990's but very few road racers still do it.

Jake Zemke and Josh Herrin do it and do it well. Nicky Hayden will do it when he's really hanging it out and going for the gusto.

[Cobie Fair]

By lightly dragging the rear brake to slow the rear wheel enough to break traction as you approach the corner. NOT enough to lock it, just enough to slow it down a tad. It was all the rage for awhile back in the mid-1990's but very few road racers still do it.

Jake Zemke and Josh Herrin do it and do it well. Nicky Hayden will do it when he's really hanging it out and going for the gusto.

 

Rumor I heard was the Rossi (when teammates with Nicky) suggested he not do it. Really, what does it get, aside from making it entertaining? And maybe harder to pass?

[racer]

I just watched Josh Hayes put in a PHENOMENAL ride at the last WSS race in Portugal. He ran in the front group and held 2nd place for the last third of the race, but, was running against guys with obviously much faster bikes. ALL the bikes were running front of the pack SUPERBIKE LAPTIMES. The only rider to go faster than the front 600's was Bayliss on a 1000. And he was the ONLY 1000 to do so. HMMMM...

 

Anyway... Josh held on battling over third place until the end, but, suddenly started backing it in on the last few laps for some reason. I figured his tires were probably going off so he was trying to relieve some pressure off the front. A couple other racers had lowsided pushing the front near the end. The track is fast, sweeping and flowing, lots of pressure on the front. Anyway, Josh was clearly losing time backing it in. The commentators even noted how the guy who passed him for third on the last lap wasn't doing it and how his in line style was clearly faster and why Josh was losing drive off the corners. Of course, the other guy's bike was clearly faster, but, Josh managed to hold them all off except the Turk until the end. And toasted his tires doing it. AWESOME ride.

 

Awesome track too. Really awesome track.

[Jaybird180]

I just watched Josh Hayes put in a PHENOMENAL ride at the last WSS race in Portugal. He ran in the front group and held 2nd place for the last third of the race, but, was running against guys with obviously much faster bikes. ALL the bikes were running front of the pack SUPERBIKE LAPTIMES. The only rider to go faster than the front 600's was Bayliss on a 1000. And he was the ONLY 1000 to do so. HMMMM...

 

Anyway... Josh held on battling over third place until the end, but, suddenly started backing it in on the last few laps for some reason. I figured his tires were probably going off so he was trying to relieve some pressure off the front. A couple other racers had lowsided pushing the front near the end. The track is fast, sweeping and flowing, lots of pressure on the front. Anyway, Josh was clearly losing time backing it in. The commentators even noted how the guy who passed him for third on the last lap wasn't doing it and how his in line style was clearly faster and why Josh was losing drive off the corners. Of course, the other guy's bike was clearly faster, but, Josh managed to hold them all off except the Turk until the end. And toasted his tires doing it. AWESOME ride.

 

Awesome track too. Really awesome track.

Yes, Josh's bike was clearly underpowered comparatively. He rode a gallant ride to a hard fought 4th place.

 

I've seen a lot of racers use the back it in style for intimidation and Josh is no stranger to it.

[racer]

Yes, Josh's bike was clearly underpowered comparatively. He rode a gallant ride to a hard fought 4th place.

 

I've seen a lot of racers use the back it in style for intimidation and Josh is no stranger to it.

 

Erm... soo... should we assume your point is that you think he was backing it in for "intimidation"? Even though it slowed him down?

[Jaybird180]

Yes, Josh's bike was clearly underpowered comparatively. He rode a gallant ride to a hard fought 4th place.

 

I've seen a lot of racers use the back it in style for intimidation and Josh is no stranger to it.

 

Erm... soo... should we assume your point is that you think he was backing it in for "intimidation"? Even though it slowed him down?

As a chess player, I've used it to good effect when I've made enough mistakes to know I should loose. There's a 50% chance I can force an error from my opponent.

 

Josh knew he had a solid 4th; IIRC 5th was too far back, so he had nothing to loose. He now had his sights set on the podium.

[racer]

Yes, Josh's bike was clearly underpowered comparatively. He rode a gallant ride to a hard fought 4th place.

 

I've seen a lot of racers use the back it in style for intimidation and Josh is no stranger to it.

 

Erm... soo... should we assume your point is that you think he was backing it in for "intimidation"? Even though it slowed him down?

As a chess player, I've used it to good effect when I've made enough mistakes to know I should loose. There's a 50% chance I can force an error from my opponent.

 

Josh knew he had a solid 4th; IIRC 5th was too far back, so he had nothing to loose. He now had his sights set on the podium.

 

Uh... I'm not following you. Was that a yes or a no?

[Jaybird180]

Yes, Josh's bike was clearly underpowered comparatively. He rode a gallant ride to a hard fought 4th place.

 

I've seen a lot of racers use the back it in style for intimidation and Josh is no stranger to it.

 

Erm... soo... should we assume your point is that you think he was backing it in for "intimidation"? Even though it slowed him down?

As a chess player, I've used it to good effect when I've made enough mistakes to know I should loose. There's a 50% chance I can force an error from my opponent.

 

Josh knew he had a solid 4th; IIRC 5th was too far back, so he had nothing to loose. He now had his sights set on the podium.

 

Uh... I'm not following you. Was that a yes or a no?

Well, we can either

1- Ask him

2- Speculate about the possible reasons why given his tactical situation he would want to do such a thing

 

Take your pick. Sorry I won't be able to flesh it out with you. I have a work-related task to finish before I leave for the holiday. I'll check back after you go through a few iterations on the subject. Cheers

 

J

[racer]

I have no idea what you are talking about. Jay.

 

Have a good holiday.

[hubbard_28]

If done correctly the rider will not necessarily lose speed. I can't remember the GP riders name, but there is one who does it consistently, and effectively on Laguna with very good results. It is a way of "whipping" the bike around and changing the way the corner is taken.

[stuman]

Backing it in is done mostly with the clutch, not the rear brake. You do use the rear brake some, but releasing the clutch slowly (or quickly if you have a slipper) is how you control the rear slide.

 

Not too many racers use the technique anymore. It was the fad a few years ago, until people figured out that it was slower and they could avoid backing it in with better slipper clutches and anit--engine braking systems.

 

Guys like Haga and Yates used to back it in all over the place, now you don't even see them doing it. These days most guys don't do it intentionaly if at all, it is typlically just a side effect of braking hard.

[racer]

Backing it in is done mostly with the clutch, not the rear brake. You do use the rear brake some, but releasing the clutch slowly (or quickly if you have a slipper) is how you control the rear slide.

 

Not too many racers use the technique anymore. It was the fad a few years ago, until people figured out that it was slower and they could avoid backing it in with better slipper clutches and anit--engine braking systems.

 

Guys like Haga and Yates used to back it in all over the place, now you don't even see them doing it. These days most guys don't do it intentionaly if at all, it is typlically just a side effect of braking hard.

 

Hi Stu,

 

Is that a newer technique adopted since the widespread introduction of the slipper clutch? I've never backed it in by downshifting too early and controlling the over rev rear wheel lock up with the clutch. That sounds like it would hard on the engine. Constantly locking the rear wheel by bouncing it off the rev limiter like that? Ouch! Not on my bike you don't!

 

Anyway, all the racers I know, including myself, who "back it in" do so entirely using the rear brake. That's why riders like Mick Doohan and Miguel DuHamel went to the trouble of mounting thumb operated rear brakes to the handlebar when they were no longer able to use the pedal.

 

Andy Ibbott covers backing it in with the rear brake technique in the California Superbike School - UK TV series. Episode 5 or 6 I think it was. He never mentioned using the clutch to control over rev lock up. I'll have to look more closely next time I'm watching a race on TV.

 

 

Cheers,

 

racer

[acebobby]

In Rossi and Andy Ibbots 10 riding techniques or whatever its called they go over backing it in and Rossi makes it look cool on a new R6!

Like racer said its purely done with the rear brake, dont confuse this technique with locking and hopping the rear on a downshift as that is not the same and is not even a technique, we used to learn to blip the the throttle to stop that from happening.

Backing it in is used alot here in the UK in the BSB to get round some of the tight little tracks especially usefull approaching a tight hairpin turn.

[stuman]

I believe backing it in was a side effect of braking hard not having the new slipper clutch and engine braking tech. Many racers do not blip when they down shift, they release the clutch slowly instead. When this is done the bike has a tendancy to back in. With the advent of new slipper clutches and anti-engine braking systems you don't see much backing it in anymore.

 

I ride a lot of supermoto and I use the technique in very tight hairpin corners only. It helps me go in real deep and still get the bike turned before the apex. I do it by letting the clutch out real slow so the bike doesn't hop, but backs in real smooth. When the clutch is all the way out the rear hooks up and I get back on the gas. I do not have a slipper clutch on my supermoto. I have ridden a SM with a slipper clutch and it was much nicer as you could bang two or three downshifts and just let the clutch go, it would still back in real smooth.

 

I can also back in my ZX10 although I only do it when I'm messing around. I don't use it as a tool when racing as I don't feel it has any advantage. Again, I do it using the clutch mostly with a little presure on the rear brake. All the riders I have spoken with about this (Including the guys that instruct on how to do this at the UK Supermoto School) do it using the clutch mostly.

 

When you use the clutch to back it in you have much more control. Your foot on the rear brake just does not have the same feel as your hand on the clutch. It is too easy to use too much brake or not enough with your foot. It is much easier to just apply a little rear brake, keep your foot presure consistant, and use your hand on the clutch to control the amount of slide.

 

You don't need to overspin the motor to do this either.

[acebobby]

I believe backing it in was a side effect of braking hard not having the new slipper clutch and engine braking tech. Many racers do not blip when they down shift, they release the clutch slowly instead. When this is done the bike has a tendancy to back in. With the advent of new slipper clutches and anti-engine braking systems you don't see much backing it in anymore.

 

I ride a lot of supermoto and I use the technique in very tight hairpin corners only. It helps me go in real deep and still get the bike turned before the apex. I do it by letting the clutch out real slow so the bike doesn't hop, but backs in real smooth. When the clutch is all the way out the rear hooks up and I get back on the gas. I do not have a slipper clutch on my supermoto. I have ridden a SM with a slipper clutch and it was much nicer as you could bang two or three downshifts and just let the clutch go, it would still back in real smooth.

 

I can also back in my ZX10 although I only do it when I'm messing around. I don't use it as a tool when racing as I don't feel it has any advantage. Again, I do it using the clutch mostly with a little presure on the rear brake. All the riders I have spoken with about this (Including the guys that instruct on how to do this at the UK Supermoto School) do it using the clutch mostly.

 

When you use the clutch to back it in you have much more control. Your foot on the rear brake just does not have the same feel as your hand on the clutch. It is too easy to use too much brake or not enough with your foot. It is much easier to just apply a little rear brake, keep your foot presure consistant, and use your hand on the clutch to control the amount of slide.

 

You don't need to overspin the motor to do this either.

 

I believe as racer says due to the lack of feel with the rear brake alot of guys started using thumb brakes!

 

but as I say alot of the top guys in the BSB championship still do it probably due to the tight tracks here,

Here is a vid of kionari in the wet at donington in wsbk this year, watch him back it into the hairpins

 

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KycZk1M7g24

[stuman]

Ok dude, whatever you say. Everybody is backing it in and using thumb brakes these days.

 

Kio just about backed it right off the track in that last hairpin. Doesn't look like the fastest way around that corner to me.

[acebobby]

Ok dude, whatever you say. Everybody is backing it in and using thumb brakes these days.

 

Kio just about backed it right off the track in that last hairpin. Doesn't look like the fastest way around that corner to me.

 

No I agree that it probably isn't the fastest way around the track, was just pointing out that some riders still do it for whatever reason, would be interesting to see if the same riders do it in qualifying!

[Jaybird180]

I believe as racer says due to the lack of feel with the rear brake alot of guys started using thumb brakes!

IIRC, thumb brakes were invented out of necessity. I dont' recall who it was developed for but the necessity was due to foot injury. IIRC it's mentiond on the movie FASTER. Both of the guys mentioned that used the thumb brake were injured at the time they tried them.

[chrisweir.com]

Seems like ALL the fast supermotard guys are backing it in all over the place.

 

I ride a motard but use more a 250GP riding style, hooked up and tidy. I'm scared of too much sliding around!

 

 

 

I believe as racer says due to the lack of feel with the rear brake alot of guys started using thumb brakes!

IIRC, thumb brakes were invented out of necessity. I dont' recall who it was developed for but the necessity was due to foot injury. IIRC it's mentiond on the movie FASTER. Both of the guys mentioned that used the thumb brake were injured at the time they tried them.

[Cobie Fair]

Seems like ALL the fast supermotard guys are backing it in all over the place.

 

I ride a motard but use more a 250GP riding style, hooked up and tidy. I'm scared of too much sliding around!

 

 

 

I believe as racer says due to the lack of feel with the rear brake alot of guys started using thumb brakes!

IIRC, thumb brakes were invented out of necessity. I dont' recall who it was developed for but the necessity was due to foot injury. IIRC it's mentiond on the movie FASTER. Both of the guys mentioned that used the thumb brake were injured at the time they tried them.

 

Pretty sure it was Doohan that was the first, then Duhamel here in the US used it I think for a while too.

[racer]

Many racers do not blip when they down shift, they release the clutch slowly instead.

Erm... what? Are you talking about dirt bikes and supermoto perhaps?

 

The VAST majority of road racers blip. And ALL the riding/racing coaches at EVERY road racing school I have ever attended or worked for, including CSS, teach it as the proper standard technique. Very few road racers I know of are not able to master it or choose to not blip.

 

In any case, I see what you mean now about pulling in the clutch and letting the rev's drop down low rather than hitting the rev limiter to get the same effect of back torquing the wheel when you release the clutch. Thanks for explaining that.

 

Of course, as Keith teaches and Cobie has already said and every road racer knows, not blipping and releasing the clutch between each shift is a good way to catch a false neutral and lose track of what gear you are in... or not in.

 

So, maybe supermoto guys do it differently?

[racer]

Pretty sure it was Doohan that was the first, then Duhamel here in the US used it I think for a while too.

 

Yes, it was Doohan and DuHamel followed suit when he broke his leg, too. DuHamel liked it so much he kept the thumb lever after his leg healed. I don't recall if Doohan's leg ever healed enough to effectively use the pedal again.