Rolling On The Throttle Makes Me Go Wide......

[murf2222]

First at little background.......

 

I attended the California superbike school at Laguna Seca about 8 years ago.

 

I had a 100mph track-day low-side a couple years later at Willow Springs. I have been trying to regain my confidence ever since. I have started over and have been attempting to learn how to ride again to hopefully conquer my fear AND eliminate bad habits.

 

Okay, to the topic at hand..............I am noticing that when I try and add throttle in a corner my bike seems to want to run wide. I'm sure that I'm not adding too MUCH throttle either. If anything, I'd say that my throttle is perhaps on the low end of maintaining the 60/40 weight bias.

 

I have been trying NOT to make any steering corrections mid-corner, but if I don't add more counter-steering I run wide.

 

Is my problem rider induced, or is my suspension possibly set-up wrong?

[Jaybird180]

First at little background.......

 

I attended the California superbike school at Laguna Seca about 8 years ago.

 

I had a 100mph track-day low-side a couple years later at Willow Springs. I have been trying to regain my confidence ever since. I have started over and have been attempting to learn how to ride again to hopefully conquer my fear AND eliminate bad habits.

 

Okay, to the topic at hand..............I am noticing that when I try and add throttle in a corner my bike seems to want to run wide. I'm sure that I'm not adding too MUCH throttle either. If anything, I'd say that my throttle is perhaps on the low end of maintaining the 60/40 weight bias.

 

I have been trying NOT to make any steering corrections mid-corner, but if I don't add more counter-steering I run wide.

 

Is my problem rider induced, or is my suspension possibly set-up wrong?

 

Hey there Murph

 

You'd have to eliminate the possibles to determine. Try allowing someone else to ride your bike who is similar in size, stature and weight and see if they get the same results. Or try riding a different bike.

 

There are cases where geometry is so tweaked up that it will cause handling issues, but I'm leaning more toward unintentional rider input as the likely culprit.

[murf2222]

First at little background.......

 

I attended the California superbike school at Laguna Seca about 8 years ago.

 

I had a 100mph track-day low-side a couple years later at Willow Springs. I have been trying to regain my confidence ever since. I have started over and have been attempting to learn how to ride again to hopefully conquer my fear AND eliminate bad habits.

 

Okay, to the topic at hand..............I am noticing that when I try and add throttle in a corner my bike seems to want to run wide. I'm sure that I'm not adding too MUCH throttle either. If anything, I'd say that my throttle is perhaps on the low end of maintaining the 60/40 weight bias.

 

I have been trying NOT to make any steering corrections mid-corner, but if I don't add more counter-steering I run wide.

 

Is my problem rider induced, or is my suspension possibly set-up wrong?

 

Hey there Murph

 

You'd have to eliminate the possibles to determine. Try allowing someone else to ride your bike who is similar in size, stature and weight and see if they get the same results. Or try riding a different bike.

 

There are cases where geometry is so tweaked up that it will cause handling issues, but I'm leaning more toward unintentional rider input as the likely culprit.

 

Thx for the thoughts Jaybird.

 

The more I think about it the more i'm convinced that it is NOT the bikes setup as the problem. I've ridden a couple other bikes lately and get the same results..............adding throttle in the turn causes the bikes to go wide.

 

Your not supposed to be applying any more counter-steering pressure as your rolling on the throttle are you?

[stuman]

No you should not have to apply any pressure on the bars as you roll the throttle on.

 

Most times when someone feels like they have to hold pressure on the bar to keep the bike from running wide it is because they have some tension in the other arm that they have to counter. Try making sure that BOTH arms/hands are completely relaxed when you roll on the throttle. Try doing this in a corner you are comfortable with and at a pace that is pretty tame as well. If your speed is a little low that is ok, just try to stay really loose all the way through the corner while gradually rolling on the throttle.

[kawdude636]

Throttle rule number 1 is very important. I think stuman is right in trying to relax a little more. I know after I caught myself with a similar situation running wide just relaxing more the next time around always helps!

[fossilfuel]

These guys are right about holding on to the bars but if you are completely relaxed and having to make steering adjustments in the corner, I would look at a couple of things.

 

1) Is this happening on all corners?

2) Is your suspension set up correctly?

What type of bike do you ride?

If you are riding a street bike with stock suspension then I would say your suspension is probably to soft. Or if you bought a track bike from a smaller guy your suspension may not be right. Too much rebound to quickly in mid corner as you apply throttle can lengthen the rake of your bike and push you out at exit.

I had this same problem and experimented with my suspension as recommended by a California suspension tuner. I used couple of track day sessions to check suspension set up...I had a fellow rider in another group standing by in pit lane with the required wrenches to make adjustments so I could immediately get feedback.

But, I think it would be smart to get someone at a track session that knows suspensions to take a look at your bike. Or if you do another CSS school and use your own bike, Check with Will.

[murf2222]

Thanks for the suggestions guys.

 

I will make sure that I'm not giving any bar input.

 

I will also play around with backing off of the rebound, as I have quite a bit dialed in right now.

 

 

Murf2222

[fossilfuel]

Thanks for the suggestions guys.

 

I will make sure that I'm not giving any bar input.

 

I will also play around with backing off of the rebound, as I have quite a bit dialed in right now.

 

 

Murf2222

 

Murf,

It is a good idea to check all your suspension settings and record them in a log book so that you can see where you are and where you are going. Have you set the sag on your bike? What is it? Anyway, good luck on your settings.

[karatekid1955]

Some brands of tires will stand you up in a corner upon braking, others upon rolling on the throttle. Try a different brand of tire, Conti's.

[nydude2000]

Hey Murf

 

Now to start I am NO WHERE NEAR anything of an expert, so take this with a grain of salt...but have just finished lvl 3,4 so I can relate to your problem. First from the way you describe it, it doesn't sound like it is the bike (happens when you ride other bikes)Having just had the "MANTRA" indoctrinated into me..it sounds like maybe you haven't picked the right lines thru the turns…as Keith says (TotW II page 18) the definition of a correct line is one that lets you do Rule Number One thru the turn.." the line that allows the throttle to be applied, exactly by the rule, is an ideal line." (and of course the rule is constant roll on of the throttle)…so maybe you need to look at your line.

 

Is you entry point right? And importantly is your entry speed correct? If your entry speed is too high for the given amount of turn input and you start to roll on the throttle that might cause a problem..Where do you start to roll on the throttle (as soon as you finish your steering input?)....is your turn input quick and enough for your turn entry speed? (Quickturn)…(this was my problem at turn 2 at Streets..lol..see below)

 

Are you hitting your apex correctly?

 

I was having a ton of trouble with turn two at Streets and was running wide (it was my first time on that track..in fact ran off track wide there…oppps)…and my coach just had me slow way down and get all the above straight...especially hitting the correct turn entry (i was turning in too early) and quickturning…Working on that A LOT made me pretty comfortable with that turn at the end

 

Anyway..may not totally help but something to think about.

 

 

 

Steve D

[Cobie Fair]

Thanks for the suggestions guys.

 

I will make sure that I'm not giving any bar input.

 

I will also play around with backing off of the rebound, as I have quite a bit dialed in right now.

 

 

Murf2222

 

Murf,

 

Let us know what you get, OK?

 

CF

[Filibuster]

This concept has bothered me since taking Level 1/2. From a physics point of view: if you are rolling on the throttle you are increasing your speed, if your speed is increasing one of two things has to happen (I think its the law): 1) you need to increase lean angle to maintain CURRENT line - e.g. constant radius of turn, 2) keep lean angle constant and run wider - e.g. increase radius of turn. Am I missing something? Keeping lean angle constant (single steering input) is what we are taught. Isn't the solution to running wide therefore anticipating the REAL line you'll experience as you accelerate through the turn and adjusting your entry accordingly.

[GregGorman]

This concept has bothered me since taking Level 1/2. From a physics point of view: if you are rolling on the throttle you are increasing your speed, if your speed is increasing one of two things has to happen (I think its the law): 1) you need to increase lean angle to maintain CURRENT line - e.g. constant radius of turn, 2) keep lean angle constant and run wider - e.g. increase radius of turn. Am I missing something? Keeping lean angle constant (single steering input) is what we are taught. Isn't the solution to running wide therefore anticipating the REAL line you'll experience as you accelerate through the turn and adjusting your entry accordingly.

 

Looking at it from a speed vs. radius viewpoint tends to lead to, "Well of course, if you add speed you'll need to add lean angle to maintain the same radius." Also, the idea of riding in a circle comes in with that viewpoint as a hypothetical way to test the theory. Yes, you can add too much throttle, too little throttle, too late on the throttle and too early on the throttle, all of which can lead to running wide in one way or another.

 

If you went out and rode in a circle, you'd find a constant throttle position to keep the constant radius. Would that put the bike in a 40/60 f/r balance?

 

If you found a 40/60 balance in a circle, eventually you'd get enough speed to run wide. Is that applying the rule of when to start rolling on the throttle?

[Filibuster]

This concept has bothered me since taking Level 1/2. From a physics point of view: if you are rolling on the throttle you are increasing your speed, if your speed is increasing one of two things has to happen (I think its the law): 1) you need to increase lean angle to maintain CURRENT line - e.g. constant radius of turn, 2) keep lean angle constant and run wider - e.g. increase radius of turn. Am I missing something? Keeping lean angle constant (single steering input) is what we are taught. Isn't the solution to running wide therefore anticipating the REAL line you'll experience as you accelerate through the turn and adjusting your entry accordingly.

 

Looking at it from a speed vs. radius viewpoint tends to lead to, "Well of course, if you add speed you'll need to add lean angle to maintain the same radius." Also, the idea of riding in a circle comes in with that viewpoint as a hypothetical way to test the theory. Yes, you can add too much throttle, too little throttle, too late on the throttle and too early on the throttle, all of which can lead to running wide in one way or another.

 

If you went out and rode in a circle, you'd find a constant throttle position to keep the constant radius. Would that put the bike in a 40/60 f/r balance?

 

If you found a 40/60 balance in a circle, eventually you'd get enough speed to run wide. Is that applying the rule of when to start rolling on the throttle?

 

Hi Greg - I like the idea of considering the turn to be a complete circle - it simplifies the visual. And, to be clear, I totally understand and agree rolling on the throttle as soon as steering is complete is the correct way to get the bike to 40/60. The question is does applying the rule change your line compared to the case where you simply hold a constant throttle - and I think the answer is yes - it causes the new line to be wider.

 

In a constant radius circle - keeping lean and speed constant - you are NOT at a 40/60 balance - adding throttle will provide the balance. To keep that balance, you'll have to keep adding throttle which, keeping lean angle constant means the radius of your circle will have to increase since your speed is increasing.

 

So, if someone applies throttle control properly, and finds they are running wide, I am wondering if the problem is the fact that they are entering the corner with the perception that their turn will follow a constant radius arc when in fact it will follow the path of an increasing radius arc.

[GregGorman]

Oh... well that didn't work. I was trying to point out that riding in circle does not take into accout the rules of WHEN and HOW MUCH to apply the throttle. The two rules work together. Seperate them and you get all sorts of neat problems.

[hubbard_28]

If it happens on other bikes, it's the rider. You'd probably be best served slowing down some for a while, and work on the throttle in the corners until you get more comfortable using it. Work on relaxing, and you should be able to slowly increase your speed and be comfortable enough to stay relaxed.