Charging The Turns

[acebobby]

Ok so this is me probably over complicating yet another simple subject but I was chilling out today watching the twist 2 DVD and at the point where one of the boys realises he's charging the turns he turns to his mate and says this is SR #1 in another form!

 

So here's the thing, I know that this is SR #1 and is triggered by the standard "in to fast"

I also realise that if I go to page 29 of twist 2 charging, discharging and recharging are all covered in full.

 

The thing I'm getting stuck with is this

Is charging the turn a completely individual problem that wont affect 2 people the same way, I mean say for example I was following an instructors lines round a track and at 2 or 3 of the turns I felt too fast to get on the throttle right away but the instructor was just smoothly cruising round, would that be me charging the turns but yet at the same entry speed the instructor is not?

 

hope this makes sense, I think I'm struggling to put into words what I mean!

 

Bobby

[GregGorman]

Ok so this is me probably over complicating yet another simple subject but I was chilling out today watching the twist 2 DVD and at the point where one of the boys realises he's charging the turns he turns to his mate and says this is SR #1 in another form!

 

So here's the thing, I know that this is SR #1 and is triggered by the standard "in to fast"

I also realise that if I go to page 29 of twist 2 charging, discharging and recharging are all covered in full.

 

The thing I'm getting stuck with is this

Is charging the turn a completely individual problem that wont affect 2 people the same way, I mean say for example I was following an instructors lines round a track and at 2 or 3 of the turns I felt too fast to get on the throttle right away but the instructor was just smoothly cruising round, would that be me charging the turns but yet at the same entry speed the instructor is not?

 

hope this makes sense, I think I'm struggling to put into words what I mean!

 

Bobby

 

Your question makes sense to me. It seems like you've got the right ideas with this. Let me reword your question a bit and see if that helps...

 

A rider enters a turn using hard braking, flicks the bike over at a precise turnpoint, has the entry speed he wanted, gets on throttle as early as possible and disappears down the next straight. In other words, no discernible errors. Did he charge the turn?

 

Another rider enters the same turn at the same speed using hard braking, gets a little scared of his speed, loses the reference of his turnpoint, turns in too early, has to ride the brakes while leaned over to get slowed down enough to get the bike pointed, ends up going too slow mid-corner, and gasses it hard to make up for it on the exit resulting in slides. In other words there's errors there. Did he charge the turn?

 

That help?

[Jaybird180]

Cause and Effect. If you think you're in too fast, it will cause you do things to "correct" that situation.

[faffi]

Probably the first 500GP world champion that didn't even get close to charging the corners, was Kenny Roberts Sr. from what I can gather. He was (relatively speaking) slow in, but fast out. Sheene, the previous champ, relied mostly on the front and would brake later and accelerate later. Then came Spencer and the beginning of the modern era was born; fast in, fast out, sliding the front going in and the rear going out. This seemingly continued through the 990cc MotoGP period. Now, with the 800s, it seems like the style is again more aimed at high cornering speeds, which will demand gentler braking leading into a corner and smoother acceleration coming out.

 

Most top rank racers are probably entering corners so fast, most of us would scream from terrror inside our helmets if we were riding pillion with them. As Greg pointed out, some riders are just so unbelievably good that they feel relaxed and in control doing things that would fry mere mortal's nerves and cause massive SR.

 

But I doubt any world champion ever got his title from charging the corners on a regular basis - that is, going in too hot and having to wait before getting back on the throttle. It's just that too hot is at an entirely different level to most. Something that is readily apparent when reading TOW2.

[stuman]

Is charging the turn a completely individual problem that wont affect 2 people the same way, I mean say for example I was following an instructors lines round a track and at 2 or 3 of the turns I felt too fast to get on the throttle right away but the instructor was just smoothly cruising round, would that be me charging the turns but yet at the same entry speed the instructor is not?

 

 

In a word, yes.

 

If the instructor is comfortable with the entry speed and you are not, then you are charging the turn and he is not.

[acebobby]

Thanks for the feedback on this subject guys, it was messing with my head a bit!

It gives me a fresh understanding that if I find myself charging the turn all I have to do is reduce my entry speed a little and go through the basics till I get the corner correct!

 

Thanks

Bobby

[stuman]

Slowing down and taking a good look at what your doing on corner entry is a good step. When you do this make sure you pay close attention to the following:

 

Where are you turning in? - when you charge most riders want to turn in early, make sure you have a good turn point and you use it.

 

Are you able to relax right after turning the bike? - when you charge most riders will be tense.

 

Can you turn QUICK? most riders will turn slow if they are afraid they are in to fast.

 

When do you release the brake? many riders will trail brake into corners when it is not benefiting them when they feel like they are in to fast. Don't use trail braking as a crutch for charging.

 

There's at least one other really important thing to look at, anyone wana help out?

[Jaybird180]

Yeah, Look at where you're going!

[stuman]

Your so literal Jaybird But that is a good point, target fixation could certainly be a symptom of charging the corner.

 

There's at least one other really important thing to look at, anyone wana help out?

 

 

May be I should have written - There's at least one other aspect of your riding your should analyze....

[acebobby]

Slowing down and taking a good look at what your doing on corner entry is a good step. When you do this make sure you pay close attention to the following:

 

Where are you turning in? - when you charge most riders want to turn in early, make sure you have a good turn point and you use it.

 

Are you able to relax right after turning the bike? - when you charge most riders will be tense.

 

Can you turn QUICK? most riders will turn slow if they are afraid they are in to fast.

 

When do you release the brake? many riders will trail brake into corners when it is not benefiting them when they feel like they are in to fast. Don't use trail braking as a crutch for charging.

 

There's at least one other really important thing to look at, anyone wana help out?

 

I'm glad this topic is getting discussed!

Here's a problem I experienced at my last track day last year, see I'm not the fastest out there but I do try to ride by the book so to speak, my procedure for turn entry is head for turn point, 2-step, quick turn, throttle rule #1, all while trying to stay relaxed I gradually increase entry speed and rarely experience any SRs in this area of my riding!

The problem I experienced last year was that coming up the straight at my local track I passed someone but their speed was fast and by the end of the straight I never had room to get into my position to take the line I was comfortable on, I made the turn but was ragged and I guess out of control (which is probably why I remember it so vividly) so I think I charged the turn and fortunately got away with it!

 

Bobby

[stuman]

This is one of the things we go into detail in the Code R.A.C.E school. When your passing guys and have to adjust your line, that changes a lot of other stuff

[khp]

The problem I experienced last year was that coming up the straight at my local track I passed someone but their speed was fast and by the end of the straight I never had room to get into my position to take the line I was comfortable on, I made the turn but was ragged and I guess out of control (which is probably why I remember it so vividly) so I think I charged the turn and fortunately got away with it!

Bobby,

 

I dont recall if you did Level 2, but if you did, do you remember the "Change lines" drill?

 

In a situation like this, the "change lines" drill is good for these situations where you cannot hit your "normal" turn point, but you should still be able to hit almost the same line through the corner by turning a little later and quicker (I think - not totally sure about this though), if you're closer to the inside of the turn than you normally would.

 

Say your normal entry into the corner is at the extreme outside of the corner, and you have a good TP and line that obeys the Throttle Control rule. Now, if your new entry is in the middle of the track, you should still be able to hit the same line by intersecting your trajectory and the "good line" and making a Turn point and steering input that makes you hit that line.

 

OK, so it's a bit difficult to explain without a drawing, but I hope you get the gist of my point.

 

Regards,

 

Kai (off to sleep - it's past midnight!)

[Kevin Kane]

This is one of the things we go into detail in the Code R.A.C.E school.

Stu;

It is one of the best "tools" I learned at CodeR.A.C.E. The idea that we students were required to first take a corner wider; then take a corner tighter than the race line was invaluable.

 

Bobby the idea was/is that sometimes to make a pass you need to go further outside or tighter inside to get around a slower rider. It is like the Changing Lines drill except at CodeR.A.C.E. you are timed at the exit with a radar gun...kinda reinforces the point that you can go "off-line" and still carry good corner speed.

 

Rainman

[Jaybird180]

Your so literal Jaybird But that is a good point, target fixation could certainly be a symptom of charging the corner.

 

There's at least one other really important thing to look at, anyone wana help out?

 

 

May be I should have written - There's at least one other aspect of your riding your should analyze....

 

 

Ooh, ooh teacher pick me, pick me....

 

I can recall when I consistently rushed a corner when riding Summit Point Shanendoah; I had no reference point to tell me that the blind right was coming, and I was consistently off line and/or too fast. Is that what you were getting at?

[stuman]

Another good point Jaybird, but no that is not the thing I had in mind.

 

 

When a rider charges into a corner there is one very basic mistake and it is a sure sign that they were in to hot. I'm kinda giving it away here

[Jaybird180]

Let me ask this- Are you saying there is a mistake that causes the rider to be too hot, or a mistake as a result of being too hot?

[Cobie Fair]

Let me ask this- Are you saying there is a mistake that causes the rider to be too hot, or a mistake as a result of being too hot?

 

You have done Level 2, what do you think?

 

CF

[stuman]

Let me ask this- Are you saying there is a mistake that causes the rider to be too hot, or a mistake as a result of being too hot?

 

Caused by being in too hot. All the stuff I listed in that post were things that were problems as a result from charging a turn, there is one important thing I did not list.

[Jaybird180]

You have done Level 2, what do you think?

 

CF

 

I knew I should've done that dang blasted home study course

 

 

Seriously:

I'm scratching my head on this little fill in the blanks riddle. Let's see if I'm on track (no pun).

 

Rider goes in too hot

Realizes it and gets on the brake too hard

Probably has soiled underwear

Most likely entry speed is too slow

Most likely didn't look thru the turn

Most likely misses the TP and consequently the apex, or maybe blew the entire corner

If the corner was "made", rider most likely fails to get back on the gas in a timely fashion

Most likely gets greedy to try and make up for the above

 

It's probably staring me in the face, if I missed it above.

[stuman]

Seriously:

I'm scratching my head on this little fill in the blanks riddle. Let's see if I'm on track (no pun).

 

Rider goes in too hot

Realizes it and gets on the brake too hard

Probably has soiled underwear

Most likely entry speed is too slow

Most likely didn't look thru the turn

Most likely misses the TP and consequently the apex, or maybe blew the entire corner

If the corner was "made", rider most likely fails to get back on the gas in a timely fashion

Most likely gets greedy to try and make up for the above

 

It's probably staring me in the face, if I missed it above.

 

 

 

[comptonchinee]

Seriously:

I'm scratching my head on this little fill in the blanks riddle. Let's see if I'm on track (no pun).

 

Rider goes in too hot

Realizes it and gets on the brake too hard

Probably has soiled underwear

Most likely entry speed is too slow

Most likely didn't look thru the turn

Most likely misses the TP and consequently the apex, or maybe blew the entire corner

If the corner was "made", rider most likely fails to get back on the gas in a timely fashion

Most likely gets greedy to try and make up for the above

 

It's probably staring me in the face, if I missed it above.

 

 

 

 

I am glad that I kinda knew this... i was actually hoping noone answered... I would have chipped in with the rider has to delay getting back on the gas...

 

I think mostly because he uses alot of attention from braking hard from charging the corner, and has to wait to let the bike settle after the new turn point or speed of quick turn...

[acebobby]

The problem I experienced last year was that coming up the straight at my local track I passed someone but their speed was fast and by the end of the straight I never had room to get into my position to take the line I was comfortable on, I made the turn but was ragged and I guess out of control (which is probably why I remember it so vividly) so I think I charged the turn and fortunately got away with it!

Bobby,

 

I dont recall if you did Level 2, but if you did, do you remember the "Change lines" drill?

 

In a situation like this, the "change lines" drill is good for these situations where you cannot hit your "normal" turn point, but you should still be able to hit almost the same line through the corner by turning a little later and quicker (I think - not totally sure about this though), if you're closer to the inside of the turn than you normally would.

 

Say your normal entry into the corner is at the extreme outside of the corner, and you have a good TP and line that obeys the Throttle Control rule. Now, if your new entry is in the middle of the track, you should still be able to hit the same line by intersecting your trajectory and the "good line" and making a Turn point and steering input that makes you hit that line.

 

OK, so it's a bit difficult to explain without a drawing, but I hope you get the gist of my point.

 

Regards,

 

Kai (off to sleep - it's past midnight!)

 

 

Hi Kai

 

I have done level 2 and I really did find the changing lines drill really good, I found that It helped me to realise just how much unused space there was out there, Its not something I do at trackdays though, maybe it would be worth me messing with a few different lines during my first session!

 

Bobby

[GregGorman]

I though this video might be relevant to charging corners:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAvSSJNs7FY

 

Skip the first 57 seconds.

[faffi]

Most of all it shows poor editing I have never been a great fan of watching others wait

 

Good thing there wasn't a crash, though