Uh-Oh!

[faffi]

I followed a Honda Africa Twin through a series of switchbacks today. I kept a prudent distance while trying to mimic his exact pace.

 

It wasn't all that much fun.

 

The rider on the adventure bike had a body posture similar to mine; bolt upright, not moving around. He also kept a virtually steady speed into and out of every corner. This is were the discomfort came into play for me. I had to use a lot of lean, throwing sparks more often than not. He didn't touch down anything what I could see, although pegs didn't have much air underneath them. Naturally, a very high CoG and narrow tyres will have reduced his need for leaning over, but I was still amazed how quickly his bike could corner.

 

But the constant speed made it really hard for me to relax. No, who am I kidding - I failed to relaxe for most of the section and never got beyond not being tense. You see, during sporty riding I prefer to sit on the front brake until I can see where the road goes. Always used to rely on trail braking because it feels comforting and natural. It dawned on me today, while following the A-T rider, why; it loads the front tyre and suspension and gives perfect feel from the front brake. If something appears around the corner, this could save my life. Even going at the same speed, having the brakes already on will dramatically reduce stopping distance.

 

So around a corner, I prefer to either be braking or accelerating. Riding at a steady pace is really, really nerve-wrecking for me. If I had braked into the corners and accelerated out of them today, I could have ridden quicker, safer and far more relaxed.

 

Then we come to the question; what do you consider to be the preferable way to ride on the road - steady pace or slow(ing) in and accelerating out?

[BLSJDS]

I've almost given up street riding altogether because it just doesn't offer me the comfort level I need to ride fast. There are WAY too many things that require some of my $10 worth of attention (other drivers, animals, unfamiliar roads, obstacles, road hazards, etc).

 

When I do street ride, I take it very easy, but I also constantly practice the techniques I learned in Levels 1-3, just at a much slower pace. For me, there is just no comparison between what I can do on the track vs what I am comfortable with on the street.

 

IMHO, you should ride in the manner that makes you most comfortable.

[acebobby]

Ride within the limit of my visuals! I once went around a blind corner on the street and there was a dead dear lying on the road, it took some serious evasive action to avoid it! To be honest since taking up track riding my road riding has become very chilled out and when riding close to the speed limits you find that you dont really have to slow down for much! I would not be trail braking on the road though, thats just mental!

[faffi]

I cannot see why trailbraking should be an issue. You can safely keep the front brake on all the way to the edge of the tyres, but you need to gently reduce the pressure as you reach more lean. Going faster than I can see is something I still do too often after more than 30 years and despite nearly ending up dead after two very heavy accidents while overriding vision - it's difficult to go slow enough when I'm having fun But trail braking? I see that as added safety, not added risk.

[ozfireblade]

But trail braking? I see that as added safety, not added risk.

 

I really only trailbrake on the track but on the road I dont. My reason is that if I am for example trailing the brakes going round a blind corner and something like a dead deer happens to be on the road, If your on the brakes already and you get a fright (SR's start firing) you'll probably grip your brakes as hard as you can the front will probably lock and tuck in and down you go.

just my 2 cents worth

[Fajita Dave]

I cannot see why trailbraking should be an issue. You can safely keep the front brake on all the way to the edge of the tyres, but you need to gently reduce the pressure as you reach more lean.

 

You can't reach max lean angle with the brakes on. You can only reach max lean angle when both tires are evenly loaded so you can use all of the traction that both tires have available. If you can reach the edge of your tire with the front brake on that means your body position is probably very upright. If you had better body position you could turn MUCH sharper with less lean angle which would seem safer to me.

 

The way to go faster through corners is to maintain speed or even accelerate. If your on the brakes while cornering than you can't lean as low which means you aren't maintaining as much speed as you can. So you end up going slower.

 

I try not to out ride my sight lines either but I will on some corners. I usually end up staying at the same speed everywhere except for the very sharp turns. It has a lot to do with personal preference but I don't think trail braking is safer or faster.

 

 

 

[faffi]

When I just reach the edge of the tyre, there is still a lot of extra lean available - or grip that can be used for a bit of braking. I agree that my style isn't the fastest - but it is faster and safer for me. Perhaps from riding the wrong way all along. I prefer to square off the corners a bit, using a lot of lean for a short period of time and low apex speed instead of a more flowing style with higher cornering speed.

[acebobby]

I think it would be a good idea for you to attend school Eirik and I hope you never meet some gravel or diesel mid corner on the roads you ride!

[faffi]

Plent of that around here. I do not fully commit to any corner. Since I'm typically braking, but not to the max, I have the option of slowing more or change my line - or both. I enjoy throwing sparks, which is why I tend to go in on the brakes and, when I deem it safe, throw the bike on its side and preferably scraping off some metal, get it up and get on the throttle.

 

No, it isn't the race track way and it maybe isn't the road way either, but it has served me well for 3 decades. The most apparent safety issue I have, is if the road is blocked - be that by a huge sand- or oilspill or a vehicle or people. A partially blocked road I can deal with, and also a stripe of sand/oil crossing the road if it is no more than 2-3 ft wide (straighten bike, slow, cross, continue corner). This is stupidity on my behalf. Although I try to avoid this, it is difficult when one gets in the groove, unfortunately. However, lately I have had a lot of warnings when going sensibly where I know it'd end up in an accident if I had been riding at full chat. So I have found myself calming down a lot over the past weeks. The joy of taking risks have subdued.

 

BTW, the speed of the A-T rider - and hence mine - were too fast had there been something blocking the road. Since I'm quite comfortable hitting the brakes even when leaned over, however, I had him to use as a guide. In other words, if I had seen him slow, I had time to stop. Which is a silly excuse, of course. The only way to ride is to not override your sight. I know that. I must learn to do it all the time, not just most of the time.

[acebobby]

Eirik

I personnaly dont understand what enjoyment there is to dragging hard parts and making sparks, everyone to their own though and if there's a kick to be had then so be it and if your happy riding like that then thats up to you! What I would like to say to you though is when I did my level 1 it was as a road rider with 17 years experience on the roads, what I learned that day was life changing and the 500 mile ride home the next day was the best ever as I got to use my new learned skills!

From some of your posts you seem to understand the physics of how a bike handles etc and I think if you could at least manage your level 1 and 2 it would open a whole new world of riding enjoyment for you!

 

Bobby

[stuman]

I don't really use the brakes much when riding on the street. A nice, smooth, steady pace leaves me more room for the unexpected.

[faffi]

You may be correct. You are no doubt much faster and also more skilled than me, what with all your theoretical and practical background. As such, I'm in no position to argue. I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that you can ride faster than me with a greater level of safety because of your skills.

 

What I do stand by is that a preloaded brake will allow you to stop quicker with less drama, every time.

 

Other than that, my arguments could probably be ripped apart and proven wrong in every respect. However, from 30 years of experience, I can say that when things have gone wrong, it has either been from lack of attention or going too fast for the conditions. My physical way of handling a motorcycle, my style so to speak, have never caused any sort of drama. The times I've messed up, be that ending up with an accident or narrowly avoiding one, has come from taking silly chances or because I didn't concentrate. The former is reducing with time and age, the latter has virtually been eradicated over the past couple of decades.

 

Again, I am never going to say what I do is perfect or the best for anybody else. But I am very aware of when I take (unneeded) risks and what they are and fully understand how I need to ride to return safely, cocky as that may sound

[the razor]

You may be correct. You are no doubt much faster and also more skilled than me, what with all your theoretical and practical background. As such, I'm in no position to argue. I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that you can ride faster than me with a greater level of safety because of your skills.

 

What I do stand by is that a preloaded brake will allow you to stop quicker with less drama, every time.

 

Other than that, my arguments could probably be ripped apart and proven wrong in every respect. However, from 30 years of experience, I can say that when things have gone wrong, it has either been from lack of attention or going too fast for the conditions. My physical way of handling a motorcycle, my style so to speak, have never caused any sort of drama. The times I've messed up, be that ending up with an accident or narrowly avoiding one, has come from taking silly chances or because I didn't concentrate. The former is reducing with time and age, the latter has virtually been eradicated over the past couple of decades.

 

Again, I am never going to say what I do is perfect or the best for anybody else. But I am very aware of when I take (unneeded) risks and what they are and fully understand how I need to ride to return safely, cocky as that may sound

 

I second what stuman said. I am not going to tell anybody how to ride or if he/she should use the breakes while in the corners. One thing I learned at the CCS level 1 is never use the brakes while turning (I try to keep the suspension in the mid range, where the bike is more stable. Approx. 60/40 range). If I have to use the brakes it is very light and for one milisecond. (bad habit for me though). Also in the 2 steps section, I learned not to commit myself until I am sure of the apex and exit. In such blind corners, I do not commit myself until I see the apex and exit, if I am not able to see it then I know it is a blind corner and I approach it as such. I use the throttle with caution and not as aggresive as when I see the apex and exit.. LIke Dylan explained in the class, Look and keep looking until you see it. Since taken that approach I am able to see the corner in a different prospective. Which makes me more aware of the corner and a little bit beyond which includes whatever could be laying down on the road. The 2 steps, picking the line and the throttle control makes my entrances and exit of the corner very smooth. I never commit myself without knowing the turn. Therefore my two steps it is a great tool of my riding skills, which by the way I need to improve. Taken Level II & III When CCS comes to NJ next year (hopefully in May). By the way, I am not disputing anybody's style or way of riding. You ride the way you feel confortable with.

This is my opinion as why CCS made me a better rider. I am a street rider. Do not have trailer to make it to the track. Stuman and Cobie I'll see you in May 2011 at NJMS. Better get ready to teach this old ...., level 2 and 3

Regards.

The Razor.

[faffi]

That is a good explanation and pretty much how I ride - apart from that I tend to keep the front brake on a little until I have control over the corner. If I can see all the way through, I will do most of the slowing pre-corner and accelerate early. If I cannot see, I brake later and deeper, which may seem contradictory but on the road you will often find that what at first seemed like a blind corner wasn't after all.

 

One must also take into consideration that committing to a corner on the road and the track can never be the same thing, because what can appear stupid fast on the road can be rather slow on a track when you know the condition of the road.

[the razor]

That is a good explanation and pretty much how I ride - apart from that I tend to keep the front brake on a little until I have control over the corner. If I can see all the way through, I will do most of the slowing pre-corner and accelerate early. If I cannot see, I brake later and deeper, which may seem contradictory but on the road you will often find that what at first seemed like a blind corner wasn't after all.

 

One must also take into consideration that committing to a corner on the road and the track can never be the same thing, because what can appear stupid fast on the road can be rather slow on a track when you know the condition of the road.

 

 

HI EIRIK.

When I approached the corner, my throttle is off but not brake. Then when I decide (see the type of turn) to use the throttle I do it accordingly. Since I ride on the street and sharp turns are always marked with a very visual signs around here . I break a little bit early on the sharp turns so when I get to the corner the brakes are off, in that way my bike it is not upset at front or back, eventhough is not 60/40 but I do not get the kick back of the front brakes when you realese them. For the other type of corners a Just let the throttle off. I am very conciuos on the street about gravel, dead deer, leaves, wet payment. etc. I try to be smooth and not fast. At the track it is different. They are made to be fast. This is the way I approach the road near where I live. By the way a lot of turnig. It is nothing wrong the way you ride. If it works for you and feel confident with it. Stick to it. I am just giving a different type of cornering approach which is not much diffferent than yours, the different is we apply the brakes at different points, I think mine is earlier with a early release before the turning point and yours stay longer up to the turning point. That is why I like this forum, we can express the same cornering techniques with a liitle bit of variations. You feel confident with yours and I feel confident with mine. But the end result is good cornering techniques. By the way I am a street rider. I do not know on the tracks. The time I've been there was for the CSS class.

My regards to you and be safe my friend.

55 AND STAY ALIVE.

The razor.

[faffi]

Thank you razor

 

I did another ride today and took it easy. Not slow, but not fast either. Just easy. Very relaxing. And highly enjoyable. Hardly any need to use the brakes, just rolling off the throttle. I prefer to either be slowing or accelerating around corners, I'm rarely comfortable at a constant speed.

 

Provided I can retain this way of riding at all times, chances are I would not break any more bones in my tired old body

 

I am also constantly alert towards debris or bumps on the road. Hence I constantly scan the road, letting my view wander between close and far. Unless there is a lot of ###### covering most of the road for any distance, I can dodge it. Or at least have had good success so far

 

 

Enjoy your day, razor - and be careful not to cut yourself

 

 

BTW, I mentioned the Africa Twin mounted rider to my brother and a couple of his mates when I met them today. They immediately knew who I was talking about. The bloke is well known in the area, apparently, and is often seen pestering race reps around the local go-kart track. He never looks hurried, just sit bolt upright, no drama, no high rpm screaming from the engine or sparks flying off the undercarriage. Yet few manage to shake him. Apparently, he's equally unmoved off the bike; speaks little and softly, never gets exited, never breaks a smile. Just calm and almost disengaged. Yet pretty fast, apparently. Not that he was going at race track speeds when I followed him, but the style is the same he uses while going in circles, it seems.

[ozfireblade]

I guess the other thing you need think about when riding your brakes into corners, because you say you have already preloaded your brakes, is the person riding behind you. Obviously the brakes lights are showing because the lever is depressed. In my opinion this would make the following rider think your slowing down making him set up for the corner earlier and maybe slower than they like, because the information they are receiving from your lights is incorrect. What I mean is seeing as most riding is using all available information visual skills etc this would feed wrong information to people behind.

 

With regard to dragging 'hard bits' and 'throwing sparks' what happens if the road suddenly has a big defect in the surface like a big bump? Hard bits grab and stick and if pegs dont move they dig in leading tot a crash. I think that you have been really lucky so far that you havent had a worse accident than the two you already mentioned.

[faffi]

If we are going hard enough for it to matter for the rider behind, I brake pretty hard. It seems to annoy them more that they are often accelerating while I'm still braking. We are out of tune. Same when I follow another rider and I think why the hell are you braking this early for?! I have adjusted over the past 5 years so that I brake earlier than I used to and get on the throttle earlier as well. Basically, I'm more flexible and can alter how I ride quite a bit to the person I ride with - although I still prefer to brake deep.

 

Don't know if I mentioned it before, but we were at a racing school for cars early this summer, and the instructors kept yelling "brake hard" where if I had done that, I'd have stopped long before getting to the entrance of the turn. I pressed on and delayed braking until they were frantic and still didn't need to brake hard to get the car stopped and turned. No doubt did they now a lot more about driving than me, but it still felt awkward braking early. At least they all wrote "very fast" on my score board I also asked for a passenger ride with one driver, and noticed he braked just as late as me, but harder so he could get off the brakes earlier and get on the throttle. At least that held some value for me instead of them yelling for impossibly early braking.

 

No doubt have I been lucky not to have crashed more, but not so often from scraping parts, I think. More from excess speed for the conditions. I often use more lean than I need, just to scrape, but for a very short distance, and only if I can see the road to be pretty decent. And pegs generally do fold. I can only remember one bike (expect for small under 100cc stuff) where the pegs didn't fold, and that was on my GS550 - even the engine cover on the left touched down before the pegs, however. Well, there were the odd moment. You're probably right about the risk of crashing from scraping as well

 

Anyway, did a stint today without scraping once and didn't miss it. Instead, I enjoyed the scenery and not ever taking a sliver of a risk. Hopefully, riding this way will last this time. Riding sensibly is a bit like it must be to try and quit smoking, I presume - it's hard not to fall back on bad habits

 

 

 

[the razor]

If we are going hard enough for it to matter for the rider behind, I brake pretty hard. It seems to annoy them more that they are often accelerating while I'm still braking. We are out of tune. Same when I follow another rider and I think why the hell are you braking this early for?! I have adjusted over the past 5 years so that I brake earlier than I used to and get on the throttle earlier as well. Basically, I'm more flexible and can alter how I ride quite a bit to the person I ride with - although I still prefer to brake deep.

 

Don't know if I mentioned it before, but we were at a racing school for cars early this summer, and the instructors kept yelling "brake hard" where if I had done that, I'd have stopped long before getting to the entrance of the turn. I pressed on and delayed braking until they were frantic and still didn't need to brake hard to get the car stopped and turned. No doubt did they now a lot more about driving than me, but it still felt awkward braking early. At least they all wrote "very fast" on my score board I also asked for a passenger ride with one driver, and noticed he braked just as late as me, but harder so he could get off the brakes earlier and get on the throttle. At least that held some value for me instead of them yelling for impossibly early braking.

 

No doubt have I been lucky not to have crashed more, but not so often from scraping parts, I think. More from excess speed for the conditions. I often use more lean than I need, just to scrape, but for a very short distance, and only if I can see the road to be pretty decent. And pegs generally do fold. I can only remember one bike (expect for small under 100cc stuff) where the pegs didn't fold, and that was on my GS550 - even the engine cover on the left touched down before the pegs, however. Well, there were the odd moment. You're probably right about the risk of crashing from scraping as well

 

Anyway, did a stint today without scraping once and didn't miss it. Instead, I enjoyed the scenery and not ever taking a sliver of a risk. Hopefully, riding this way will last this time. Riding sensibly is a bit like it must be to try and quit smoking, I presume - it's hard not to fall back on bad habits

 

 

 

 

Hi Eirik.

As you mentioned. You went for a ride and took it easy. It seems for your words that was very enjoyable.

The way I ride is I go to a speed that I can control on the turns. No reckles and not slow but a speed that in case I find myself on one of those turns that sometimes sorprises you I can handle it. when I am comming to the turn I let the throttle off if it is a sharp turn, I turn and immediately start rolling on the throttle. the turn dictates how hard or soft I do the throttle. On the soft turns (sort of speak) I tone down the throttle, make the turn and continue with the roll on. I try to pase myself so I have to use the minimum amount of brake. It does not mean I do not use them, but I try to minimize it. That came from level 1 when you have to go on 4th. gear through the entire track without using the brakes. Applying that technique has built my confidence on the street, my speed has increase when cornering, I feel more confortable when I go a liitle bit harder on the corners because I know I can handle the speed. But I do not go reckless or careless. I know that I am on the street and a lot of things has to be consider, such as other vehicles, debries on the road etc. If I were you I will keep doing what you just did and I am pretty sure you are going to be more confident and you will be amazed of how your speed and technique are going to be improved . Remember everybody on the straights can go fast, but on the turns you got to be smooth.

LIke the sayng goes. Smooth is fast. As far as the sparks that tells me you are leaning too much. The more you lean the slower you go. My two cents my friend and keep it safe.

You should take the CCS classes and if you did go over Level 1 techniques.

My regards to you

The razor.

[faffi]

I've enjoyed going slow-ish - or safely - many times before, but sooner or later the devil seems to return. Perhaps I can keep him at bay this time

 

Apart from that, I do not think we ride so differently the majority of the time from what you describe. I only tend to brake hard/scrape parts/use lots of effort on roads where the corners are slow (under 60mph/100 kph, preferably just half that) and rarely on high speed sections. Depends upon the bike, also; a very good bike that gives tons of confidence and plenty of power will make me go faster far more often than an underpowered bike with less than spectactular handling. This is also why I have mostly limited myself to old relics with around 50hp - going slow is mandatory but can still be fun and feel fast due to the shortcomings of the bike

[faffi]

Maybe I should tell a bit about my reason why I chose slow and old motorcycles for many years.

 

WARNING: Most will find this tedious and highly uninteresting - proceed at your own risk

 

Back in 1990, I bought a CB1100F. All along, I had been a top gear rider, meaning I usually shifted into top gear and used the throttle to regulate the speed. I would often accelerate hard from a standstill, though, but not much while actually riding. Up until that point, I had ridden one 50cc, two 100cc, one 500cc (totalled), one 750 (crashed twice), a 350 and a 550 (neither of them crashed). The reason for the 1100 was not to go fast, but being able to ride more relaxed; you don't get to pass a car in top gear on a 350

 

What I ended up with was a bike that I constantly wound out the redline, all the time. The bike was so stable, so confidence inspiring, I felt invincible! Like doing long 100mph / 160 kph powerslides in 4th with everything decked out. Even hitting undulations in the road doing this failed to upset it. I regularly dragged pegs and stands doing 125 mph. On public roads! I cornered at speeds I have never been able to replicate later on (luckily). Since you're not I never once took that bike on the road without hitting 125 mph at least once, even around town. I rode like a complete lunatic, and I knew I was on borrowed time. After only 3000 km (less than 2000 miles) I decided enough was enough and sold it while I was still alive.

 

My bikes after that was a 400, a 250, a 500, a 650, a 500, a 1300, a 500, an 800, all relics from the 70s and early 80s apart from the 800, which was a new Vulcan cruiser. The cruiser was an eyeopener - it was the first bike I really enjoyed riding between the twisties on, and I discovered a new side of riding; simply enjoying the scenery.

 

But after a couple of years, the lack of cornering prowess really began to take its toll and I decided I needed something sportier. Well, it was also my ego; my brother sold his and my former KZ1300 and bought a Daytona and a buddy sold his SRX6 and bought an RF900. Where we used to be equally matched in speed, they could now ride circles around me. Since almost 15 years had gone since the 1100 and I felt I had matured sufficiently, I replaced my Vulcan with a GSX600F Katana. I kept it for a year, but sold it when I regularly began sliding both tyres on the road (poor grip from the BT45 and ME550, basically) and lusting for more grip and power. I knew a new ambulance ride was in the card if I kept it.

 

I then rode my second bike, an old KZ400 twin, for a year before the urge for a bit more power hit again and I bought a Sprint 900. I didn't corner quite as madly as I did with the CB1100F, but got closer than on anything else. In 2500 km / 1600 miles I had 4 serious warnings and one big crash, going head first into a stray Volvo coming around a bend on my side of the road.

 

I was then back on my 400 for some time before buying an Intruder 1400. The grunt of that engine was fantastic at first, but I soon wanted more. And a better chassis. Last year I ended up selling it and got my current project, which is a combination of my brother's crashed Daytona and a Thunderbird. It still isn't right, so it's not possible for me to ride it like the Sprint, not to mention the CB1100, but the bike would have been better for me with the 69hp Thunderbird engine instead of the 98hp Daytona unit.

 

When I do get the chassis and carburation sorted over winter, it remains to be seen if I can use the bike's abilities for extra safety instead of extra speed I do hope so

[harnois]

Naturally, a very high CoG and narrow tyres will have reduced his need for leaning over,

 

See this, look at the section called "Leaning."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_dynamics#Turning

Note in the formula there, the variables are speed, radius, and gravity. The higher CoG of the adventure bike would not cause it to lean less. Now what might be fun to think about, is how would your lean angle or cornering ability be affected if you were riding on other planets with different levels of gravity?

[harnois]

Eirik, I started riding motorcycles in 1998. By the time I took superbike school in the early 2000's, I had about 80,000 miles of street riding experience. Yeah, I guess I got the bug.

 

I was totally comfortable with riding before I took the school. I didn't really feel like I was missing anything. But the school totally changed my way of riding. In the following 2 or 3 months I remember feeling quite awkward while trying to ride by their suggestions. I felt slow and inaccurate. I was having to think really hard about what I was doing while riding, when before it seemed so natural.

 

But having a good mind for physics, I new their methods made sense, so I forced myself to do it their way, and eventually it started to feel great, better than ever before. Scenarios that used to scare me, didn't scare me anymore, because I knew what to do (or more accurately, what not do do) to keep the bike stable and happy. I was going faster but at the same time safer and more capable of dealing with the unexpected.

 

The process continues constantly today while riding on the track, although in smaller increments. With my adventure bike, I've been learning all kinds of new stuff, standing on the pegs, hopping over big logs, riding up steep embankments, trying different techniques. Since it is all new it feels awkward at first, but I keep doing it until it starts to feel natural. You can't really objectively evaluate the value of a technique until you've done it enough to get beyond the awkward feeling stage.

 

You've been riding for 30 years you say, obviously you are used to doing it a certain way, I can relate. But if you want to get anything out of the suggestions from this forum, or from taking a superbike school, don't you think you'll have to accept that awkward feeling for a while? It seems to me like you are coming up with some kinda bizarre interpretations of the laws of physics in order to justify your current style of riding, rather than making the effort to learn a better way. It's like you are in denial. Maybe you need an intervention.

[harnois]

Then we come to the question; what do you consider to be the preferable way to ride on the road - steady pace or slow(ing) in and accelerating out?

 

For a lot of turns it's a steady speed simply because they are not sharp enough to make me have to slow down for them. I mean, with a speed limit of 55mph, a turn has to be pretty dang sharp to make me have to slow down for it, especially after all the track riding experience.

 

But for the turns where I need to slow down, it's engine braking and/or light braking up to the turn, release the brakes, lean it down, throttle on as soon as possible and slight throttle roll-on throughout the turn. It's the safest way to ride, and it's still fun. A lot of the back roads I ride on are bumpy and sketchy. Being on throttle through the turn keeps the bike super stable so it just sails over all the mess with no fuss.

[harnois]

I cannot see why trailbraking should be an issue. You can safely keep the front brake on all the way to the edge of the tyres, but you need to gently reduce the pressure as you reach more lean. Going faster than I can see is something I still do too often after more than 30 years and despite nearly ending up dead after two very heavy accidents while overriding vision - it's difficult to go slow enough when I'm having fun But trail braking? I see that as added safety, not added risk.

 

Here's the reason why trail braking is dangerous on the street. As I'm sure you know based on your posts and 30 years of riding, if you hit a slippery spot while cornering on the brakes, the front end will step out FAST! You can end up on the pavement before you even knew you were sliding. Now I see in this thread you've addressed that, and say you deal with those issues fine, but what if you don't SEE the slippery spot? I have multiple times had my tires slide out and had no idea what was there to cause it. In some cases I've actually gone back to look at the road to see what it was. Gravel on the road of the same texture and color as the pavement is easy to miss, especially at speed.

 

So lets consider..

 

Rider #1, who likes to trail brake, he runs over the invisible slippery spot, his front end steps out big time, the bike makes it through the slippery spot still on its wheels and regains traction but the rider is already freaked out, he panics, target fixates on the dump truck in the oncoming lane, game over.

 

Rider #2, also likes to trail brake, but he's more experienced, less prone to target fixation, his front end steps out, but this slippery spot is too big, the bike goes down before it gets back to the better pavement, he slides into the dump truck, game over.

 

Rider #3, hits the slippery spot with no brakes and perfect throttle control. Both the front and rear wheel slip just a tad, but he barely notices, and goes about his day.

 

Which rider do you want to be? Riders 1 and 2 are dead; Rider 3 is a feeling like a bad@ss.